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Messages - Ken S

#1
English translation of last reply:

Thank you for the hint and the explanations.

I already had the blade angle on the radar. But it just explains part of the deviation of 3-4 degrees. I think the WM-200 simply adds up a number of systematic and random errors and therefore it is more of an "estimate" for knives and not a measuring device.
#2
Welcome to the forum, Lazarek.

Good question, with several reasons. Tormek's traditional technique has been jig guided sharpening with handheld honing. In this case, a larger honing wheel would not be a problem. When using a flat honing wheel handheld, the knife can be angled, thus clearing the grinding wheel. The problem occurs when using the jig for honing, which must be used with the knife straight. There are several solutions:

1)The grinding wheel can be temporarily removed with the EZYlock. When used with an FVB and a US-430 support bar, this provides clearance with longer knives. I have used this method to jig hone my 10" chef knife with my T4.

2) The tapered composite honing wheel for the T1/T2 in interchangeable with the T4. Here is a link:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/products/tormek-honing-wheel-for-t-1-t-2

This solves the clearance problem, although it keeps the same smaller diameter.

3) Various third party vendors offer larger leather honing wheels. These can be mounted on either end of the main shaft with adaptors, which should also be available from the same vendors.

I do not think Tormek will offer same size leather honing wheels. The customer demand for these would be too small to be profitable. The market would be primarily knife sharpeners. Woodworkers, turners, and carvers would have little use for larger honing wheels. The most practical solution may be a US-430 and either several grub screws or a USB, the Grub screws being much less expensive; the USB working better.

Ken

#3
Clever solution, Andy! In one of the online classes, Wolfgang just dips his fingers into the water trough and moistens the side of the wheel. I suspect that may be adequate; however, your solution is more thorough and more elegant.

Keep up the good work!

Ken
#4
Ah ha! A good post gives me information; a great post gives me information and a good chuckle! When I started on the forum, Jeff Farris, the forum founder and previous moderator, and I shared a running joke. "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Fortunately the forum has no Inquisition, so no members were harmed.

Seriously, I am glad we have some engineering types on the forum. Wee have all benefitted from the "professional deformation". :)

Ken
#5
Quote from: BlueDun on February 11, 2025, 09:30:16 AMAppreciate all feedback so far – cheers guys 👍

I think I settled on my way to skin my cat.

Status:
-    KS-123 is in the house
-    KS-123 differs from WM-200 in terms of angle readings
-    Absolute value readings questionable for both tools

Goals:
-    Want to ditch WM-200 and integrate KS-123 into my workflow

Consequence:
-    All my knives net to be set with new bevels

Principles & Assumptions:
-    Calculator method is the most precise method to set actual grinding angles. It's also the most reproducible at the cost of being somewhat cumbersome.
-    KS-123 is easy to handle and - with proper and careful handling -  sufficiently reproducible

Workflow:
-    Set the new bevel by means of the calculator method
-    Grind new bevel on grinding wheel
-    Use the KS-123 to "read out" the angle. That may differ from the calculated value.
    Note down "KS-123 angle" for each knife
-    Transfer to JS wheel and felt polishing wheel by use of KS-123. Quality control with microscope.
-    Future maintenance with KS-123

Bluedun,


You have outlined an impressive workflow. If you plan to operate a sharpening business, how much would you charge a customer to sharpen a knife following your workflow?

I would not say that this workflow is impractical, only that it seems best suited to high quality, low volume sharpening. I would recommend you also formulate simpler, lower cost options. Reserve your procedure for your personal knives and for those people who really appreciate fine edges.

Ken
#6
It is easy to lose sight of the total picture of a product by focusing only on one aspect of it.

For example, Tormek PA-70. Over the years, I have heard it described with several grit ratings, including "we don't know". I have concluded that it defies grit measurement, which is not necessarily bad. As the compound is used, like garnet sandpaper, the grains break down and become finer. In a sense, this makes PA-70 a multigrit compound, unlike single grit diamond compounds. While the harder diamond grains may be superior for supersteels, PA-70 may have advantages for carbon steel. Unlike RAM in Apple computers, adding diamond compound at a later date is simply a matter of purchasing an additional leather wheel and diamond compound. This covers the "what if I eventually get a supersteel knife?" possibility.

What about using an SB coarse and an SG graded fine? While this method has some pros, it comes with an additional $200 cost and changing wheels. I have not used my SB enough to have a good sense of how effective a developed opinion of how effective the stone grader is with it. Based on Wootz' studies, I believe using inexpensive diamond plates is an effective grading option. No extra wheel cost; no changing wheels or need to reset for different wheel diameters.

Ken
#7
We are missing two important pieces of data:
1) the tolerance range for bevel angles in various applications.
2) the accuracy tolerance of our measuring tools (both the KS-123 and the calipers)

Most companies do not publish this information. Most users do not have a sophisticated enough understanding to interpret this data. It would be helpful to the few of us users who have the knowledge and interest to do so.

I suggest starting with one of your knives which you have already sharpened at your ideal bevel angle using your WM-200. Using your black marker, carefully insert it in your KS-123. Adjust the KS-123 so that the angle setting matches the black marker. on an index card, note the information about the knife, the previous ideal angle, and the new angle with the KS-123.

You may want to do this with all the knives you regularly sharpen. The procedure does not take long and it is "one and done". Or, if you find a consistent pattern emerging after a few knives, you may just want to add the difference to your original readings.

Ken
#8
As I went to post my reply, I received the message that another reply had been posted. I am adding this to my original reply.

For many years, I have had a hobby interest in machine shop measuring. In the machine shop world, "exactly" is not used. Measurements are expressed in tolerances. Tolerances vary with the requirements of the work and are often included on the blueprints as + or -. The accuracy of measuring tools is often noted in precision tool catalogs. Expect to pay considerably more for tools with tighter tolerances.


Enrico,

I applaud your thoroughness! One of the reasons for my faith in the KS-123 came from sitting in on a meeting of the Tormek Innovation Committee in 2023. The committee included Håkan, Tormek's abrasives expert and retired CEO; Mats, the Head of Support and employee number six, with three decades of experience; and Tim. I did not know Tim prior to the meeting. He has a position in the technical design department. The other guest was Per, a retired industrial engineer. Per is a member of our forum and had designed a similar jig to the
KS-123. There was enough technical expertise in the room to light up the village!

I suspect the WM-200 was a carryover and originally designed for tools with a larger, flat measuring surface like chisels and plane irons. With these measuring surfaces, it performs very well. It does not do well with tapered knife blades with very narrow bevels.

As a stopgap measure, I designed and posted a substitute measuring target. When set for the same projection as the knife, being flat it performs better than the WM-200. It is no match for the KS-123.

Hopefully, other members who use theKS-123 witha goniometer will reply.

Ken

#9
You make some good points, Sir Amwell. My sharpening has been limited to Victorinox, Mora, and standard Buck knives. I would probably feel differently if I was investing in or sharpening super steel knives. My simple methods have worked for me. Others may find more sophisticated methods preferable, which is fine with me.

We both agree about the KS-123. I believe the WM-200 will continue to be useful for tools like chisels and plane irons. In the future, I see the KS-123 quickly replacing the WM-200 for knives. I also believe the black marker will continue to be useful.

Tormek is innovative and adaptable.

Ken
#10
Knife Sharpening / Re: Remembering Wootz
February 08, 2025, 06:23:26 PM
Nice post, Kwakster.

I have long believed that one of the virtues of this forum is the combining of several creative minds.

I agree that Vadim's tragic early death deprived us of his ongoing ideas.

Ken
#11
Welcome to the forum, Enrico.

The short answer is that an exact reading in degrees doesn't matter. Consistency and repeatability are more important, both for cutting and for minimizing the amount of steel removed in sharpening.Exact measurement is more important when two surfaces are mated, such as in a threaded nut and bolt.

I suspect the difference you are reading may be caused by the taper of the blade. The WM-200 works very well with tools like chisels, with a large, flat measuring surface. The KS-123 is a substantial improvement for knife set up. Incidentally, whether your Tormek is a T4 or T8 makes no difference in this matter.



In our enthusiasm, it is easy to blur the line between practical precision and our egos. I do not wish to demean the pursuit of excellence; however, to borrow a line from one of the online classes, "the tomato doesn't know the difference".

Ken
#12
Knife Sharpening / Knife related thoghts
February 08, 2025, 01:44:07 PM
This video is ore philosophical than nuts and bolts sharpening. For those who feel this has no place on a sharpening forum, please feel free to skip it.

Ken

 https://youtu.be/59pV7zN3Wi0?si=mZiBTmrh98BI-p_u
#13
Kwakster,

I am pleased to see your revived interest in small platform jigs. Your design is clever. I have never understood why Tormek has never produced one. The narrow (same width as the grinding wheel or a little less) allows a knife set up which does not have to be moved to grind the full length of both bevels, a real time saver. It is also much faster than resetting each knife in the traditional knife jig.

After making several small platforms with the SVD-110, I realized that Herman's design using the platform from the scissors jig provided a lower center of gravity. CB later made a platform using the knife jig from his T2. The parts are expensive, but the design is a dream.

I could also not understood why more farmers market sharpeners didn't jump on the idea. It is the ideal way to sharpen many knives quickly.

Ken
#14
Thinking about the video link Mike posted, Irewatched a couple turning tool sharpening videos. I would suggest using both Glenn Lucas videos and the Tormek woodturning tools video as a solid study combination. I would include the shorter Nick Agar videos with this group. Here are links:

Ken

https://youtu.be/-cEXDssipig?si=RPD3PEPLjOHiGzY9

https://www.youtube.com/live/7aHmc43RUY4?si=Rlp0e7pNfWKs-VwA
#15
Quote from: Thread Killer on February 06, 2025, 01:47:02 AMI'd worry about changing the width SG-250 wheel. If you are using the flat side enuff to dish it, I would invest in a diamond wheel.

The taboo about grinding on the side of the wheel is an old safety issue with thinner wheels exploding on high speed dry grinders. it really isn't an issue with 50 mm thick slow speed Tormek wheels.

Ken