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Good posts. I certainly never intended to imply that what I posted was the best or the only method. My intention was to initiate a forum discussion. Those of you who have followed the forum long enough may remember when I first posted the kenjig around ten years ago. It was based on Dutchman's tables. Several improved jigs based on it soon appeared and soon after several apps. These went far beyond my simple ideas. I hope this discussion may evolve the same way.

I have always been puzzled by both the online classes and Wootz' videos. In both cases, they address the set up very well for single knives. From an instructional standpoint, I see the value of more intensely focusing on a single knife for simplicity. I also think that the single knife only approach does a disservice to viewers who may have multiple or many knives to sharpen in a limited period of time. Whether the method is using the Anglemaster, the black marker, or an applet, restarting at square zero for each knife seems very time inefficient to me.

I don't know the Tormek technique for sharpening many knives. I did notice that many of the single knives shown in Wootz' videos had a Projection of 140mm. That would indicate him having an organized plan to me. If any of you know about such a plan, please post it.

Regarding the preference for adjusting he microadjust by raising, that is a well known machine shop and woodworking practice. Adjustment screws, whether in machines like metal lathes or woodworking bench planes, have a small amount of slop in the threads. It is good practice to turn the knobs slightly to take up the slack before making precise adjustments. In the case of the support bar threads, this means making adjustments by raising the support bar. This keeps the threads under tension. Tormek is quite correct in stating this preference. Unfortunately, they have not explained why.


Tormek prefers one jig per function geared to handle the majority of tools. This works very well for the majority of tools or knives. Unfortunately, not all knives or tools the sharpener in the field fall into this comfortable majority category. As such, I believe the resourceful sharpener should have several jigs and techniques in his bag of tricks. For thick knives which fall outside the range of the SVM-45, using the KJ-45 seems the logical choice. For knives within the SVM-45 thickness range, especially for multiple knives, the SVM-45 seems the choice, especially those made before 2002 with longer threaded shafts.

Yes, a KJ-45 with adjustable end stop would be the ideal jig. However, we do not presently have that option, so we must devise workarounds.

Ken

Here's the thing Ken.
First up Dutchman's comment: "keep it simple, add an adjustable stop to the KJ45"
Please do this Tormek.

Secondly regarding the single knife approach as opposed to batch sharpening.
The new KS123 combined with the newish KJ45 is great for single knives. No calculator or measuring instruments required. But for batch sharpening it's a time waster.
Most kitchen knives can be jigged up in the old SVM jigs (I have 9 of them) and then with the help of a homemade jig, set to one projection distance (I use 139mm).
Then using a USB with a stop imposed on it ( I use a lockable sleeve) to a set height for whatever angle you like ( mine is set for 15degrees per side for a 139mm projection), you are 'batch ready'.
For those 9 knives there is no adjustment needed only changing stones.
This is repeatable for honing on a FVB with the leather wheel with a similar USB with a stop on it.
This is a great time saver and removes any 'faff'.
As you will appreciate THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WITH AN ADJUSTABLE STOP, in order to set all those jigged up knives to a constant projection.

I find the KS123/KJ45 just fine for all other knives that fall outside this bracket or want different angles etc.

So I am still clamouring for the KJ 45 to have an adjustable stop.

Apologies in advance for going over old ground but I think worth revisiting.
The introduction of the KS123 has highlighted the old topic of the slight movement of the USB when locking it in place with the nuts on the sleeve housing. Not talking backlash here. Neither am I referring to the need to push down on the USB above the micro adjust when locking to minimise movement. That movement is still there and it's no longer a suspicion as you can see the pointer move on the scale of the KS123 if you check after locking down.
Does this matter?
I think it does.
There are issues with accuracy and consistency with this.
Some will say not enough to affect things overly much but if I'm going to hone a knife at +1.5 degrees from the original grinding angle to remove a bur and then at exact to clean up, a discrepancy of +/- half a degree ( sometimes more) is going to matter. To me anyway.
So any thoughts on this?
Any work arounds?
As a slight aside. I think the movement caused by locking (as the end of the screw engages with the leg of the USB in the sleeve) is not so much up and down as side to side? Hence it's the projection distance being affected rather than the height of the USB. If that makes sense.
Right. That's my Sunday morning issue put out there. I'm back to the workshop to dream of a perfect world........

Well put Ken. Couldn't agree more.

Not really... a felt wheel removes the burr and cleans up the edge (and can polish), while an SJ wheel will refine the edge and polish the bevel, but still leaves a burr that needs to be removed.

I'm going to be a bit more emphatic.  Definitely not, for the reasons cbwx34 says.  Following Knife Grinders deburring principles, whether I use the SJ wheel or not, I always finish using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamonds (I use paste rather than spray) at some "degree" of higher angle, usually 1°-2°. 

But, now that I mention the higher angle for deburring, I'm not recalling at the moment if anyone has tried to deburr using only the SJ at one of those "higher" angles (someone must have).  I suspect it would not work to the same degree due the significant difference in abrasiveness, SJ ~ 4,000-5,000 grit, 1µ ~ 14,000 grit. 

For some reason I've hardly ever got the rock hard felt wheel to work for me. The sharpness invariably goes down and not retrievable with subsequent honing. So I'd given up on it really. I tried again using the new angle setter to see if accuracy would improve it. Same results, regardless of varying the angle.
Maybe it's my bad technique. I've posted about this in the past with mixed answers.
So I wonder if you could give a detailed overview of your technique Rick, when using the felt wheel with 1 micron diamonds?

Sorry that wasn't very clear.
I noticed from the instructional video that the the protrusion was being set in the vee of the jig at the belly of the knife and thought it may be problematic as the correct protrusion should be set before the curve of the belly ( ie on the straight portion of the blade) to allow for pivoting and or raising to follow the curvature of the blade.
If you flip the knife ( handle on the left) you'll hit the vee at a straighter portion of the blade for most kitchen knives.
Can't be said of shorter blades I suppose...
Or, like Pers prototype, could one set the projection before going near the stone?

If it's worrying you , you can always flip the knife over to set in the vee on the straighter portion of the blade?

Just to add my pennies worth. I think Bess scores in the range of 150 (130/140/150/160/170) indicate that the burr has not been completely removed.
Whilst I gave up chasing sub 50 Bess a long time ago I still use the tester to indicate to me that the burr has been properly dealt with. I'm happy with anything under 120 and more than happy under 100.
So I think maybe you need to pay a little more attention not just to bevel angle but honing technique. The Tormek compound on leather wheel is good for most steels but harder steels really need diamonds and a very precise honing angle to completely remove the burr.
One important thing I took from studying Wootz book on sharpening is that the secret is not just achieving a true apex on a knife edge but how to remove the burr.
That is why his book is titled as it is.

This does raise some questions though.
It is fairly well known I think that sharpening softer steels on CBN is inadvisable due to clogging effect.
Could the same be said of diamond?
If no then what are the properties of the two that gives rise to this?

Second that.
First task in sharpening is knowing what you are dealing with.
If you can't identify the steel on a kitchen knife then assume it's of low hardness and progress from there.
At least you won't risk damaging expensive CBN or diamond wheels.
If you're not making progress on an unidentified steel you can always switch to super abrasives later.

Agree with last post. I never got improved sharpness using felt wheel.
These days I keep things simple. For most everyday steels I set edge on T8 on 400 grit CBN wheel. I then hone on a WSKO on the grinder attachment with leather belt and Tormek paste, first at +2 degrees and then at exact. A final hone on a hanging leather strop, no compound. I vary this for higher end (harder more brittle steels) using Vadims appendix as a guide.
I am not so hung up on sub 50 Bess anymore. I am fine with 80-110 Bess range. That tells me the burr is gone and I have a crisp clean apexed edge.
My customers are always happy with this too.

After sharpening about 200 knives and also using them in a fast paced meat processing setting I still haven't reached or even gotten near my sharpening goals of below 100 bess. I have tried everything I have read about but I just can't reach below 140 bess on a the 15 dps knives. The edges cut really great for the first hour but then they need a lot of steeling to keep cutting well. I find i cant use the polished steel for very long because it doesnt have much of an effect on the edge. I was hoping to have better edge retention after reading Vadims research but still haven't made it there. On the plus side my edges are very consistent at the middle and tip of the knife which is very important on a boning knife and also I find it easy to sharpen with the Tormek

Hi Butcher your 140+ scores indicate that you probably haven't completely removed the burr. More over, the fact that your edge dulls quickly and requires steeling also indicates that you have a wire edge (a burr which although small lies on top of the apex). That wire edge though seemingly very sharp will roll over quickly, hence your need to steel it to return it to the centre. This wire edged burr really needs removing to get to the true apex. If you do that then you will not only have a sharper edge ( at most 120 Bess probably lower, ideally sub 100) but the retention will be better.
Try honing at a slightly higher angle initially, with diamonds preferably (. 5 micron or 1 micron). Maybe + 2 degrees for lower end knives, 1-1.5 degrees for main stream knives.
Then rehone at the exact angle you ground to. I know this seems counterintuitive but it works!
Refer to Vadims book, an appendix gives a whole list of honing protocols for different steels. You don't need to go down the paper wheels route or follow them exactly, it will give you a general idea of how to hone particular steels.
Hope this helps. As the o/p pointed out. Don't despair. You will get there in the end!

I recommend watching the follow up video too as he tries to address the issues raised by some of the comments in the first one.

Agree with previous 2 posts.
The felt honing wheel is designed to remove the core of the burr from the apex. After that you need to have a final clean up, usually at the exact edge angle. A hanging leather strop will also usually remove a wire or foil burr if the felt wheel has not done so.

Sounds obvious and you may have tried already, but have you tried the quick release method?
Have the machine in front of you, USB nearest you. Hold the stone in your left hand. Now take the honing wheel in your right hand and turn it away from you whilst holding or turning the stone towards you. This usually gets things moving.

Agree with all responses so far.
You say you don't want water.
Without water you will have dust.
Personally I'd prefer water to dust.
For me it's easier to clean up water than it is to vacuum the whole workshop.
And I'm not keen on trying to vacuum my lungs to free them of steel and diamond dust.
Wear a mask I hear you say.
I'd still prefer cleaning up water than wearing a mask......