New found touch

[austijp]

I'm super excited, I'm finally getting beautiful symmetrical angles and consistently sharp edges.  It's taken me a while to develop the touch.

I have a Lone Wolf folder that I just couldn't get a great edge on.  It's S30V with a pretty thick blade .125, I just sharpened it at 19 deg and consistently got BESS scores of 120 to 130. I know there's better results out there but I'm ecstatic with my progress.

For those of you that aren't satisfied don't give up, you will eventually find your touch.

I currently grind dry with CBN wheels in 3 grits, 200, 600 & 1000, I have 2 honing wheels with progressive grit, however it seems like the Tormek paste is my go to, even though the specs are coarser my results are better.  I built an FVB for the honing wheel, this was probably the single most impactful thing I did. I use the Calcapp software this was also a very impactful tool.

I'm excited to see if there's still opportunity to improve.

[John_B]

The FVB and guided honing was a major step up in my sharpening. Honing freehand and especially at a slightly increased angle from sharpening was a real challenge before the FVB.

[John Hancock Sr]

For those of you that aren't satisfied don't give up, you will eventually find your touch.

So true. It is important to persevere and practice. Skills such as this take time to develop and the trick is to try to constantly improve.

[BUTCHER]

After sharpening about 200 knives and also using them in a fast paced meat processing setting I still haven't reached or even gotten near my sharpening goals of below 100 bess. I have tried everything I have read about but I just can't reach below 140 bess on a the 15 dps knives. The edges cut really great for the first hour but then they need a lot of steeling to keep cutting well. I find i cant use the polished steel for very long because it doesnt have much of an effect on the edge. I was hoping to have better edge retention after reading Vadims research but still haven't made it there. On the plus side my edges are very consistent at the middle and tip of the knife which is very important on a boning knife and also I find it easy to sharpen with the Tormek

[austijp]

After sharpening about 200 knives and also using them in a fast paced meat processing setting I still haven't reached or even gotten near my sharpening goals of below 100 bess. I have tried everything I have read about but I just can't reach below 140 bess on a the 15 dps knives. The edges cut really great for the first hour but then they need a lot of steeling to keep cutting well. I find i cant use the polished steel for very long because it doesnt have much of an effect on the edge. I was hoping to have better edge retention after reading Vadims research but still haven't made it there. On the plus side my edges are very consistent at the middle and tip of the knife which is very important on a boning knife and also I find it easy to sharpen with the Tormek

An aha moment for me was deburring, I make sure I alternate a couple very light passes on the 1000 grit stone proir to buffing to ensure the burr is small.  After a strong deburring and polishing phase I finish with ultra light alternating passes to get the remaining burr. I do this at an angle 1 deg to 1.5 deg  steeper than the grind. I eventually purchased a small scope to inspect my edges,  I realized I wasn't actually cleaning 100% of the burr.  They felt sharp and cut well but dulled extremely fast.  I also built a FVB to ensure a consistent deburring angle, slightly steeper than my grind angle.

[Sir Amwell]

After sharpening about 200 knives and also using them in a fast paced meat processing setting I still haven't reached or even gotten near my sharpening goals of below 100 bess. I have tried everything I have read about but I just can't reach below 140 bess on a the 15 dps knives. The edges cut really great for the first hour but then they need a lot of steeling to keep cutting well. I find i cant use the polished steel for very long because it doesnt have much of an effect on the edge. I was hoping to have better edge retention after reading Vadims research but still haven't made it there. On the plus side my edges are very consistent at the middle and tip of the knife which is very important on a boning knife and also I find it easy to sharpen with the Tormek

Hi Butcher your 140+ scores indicate that you probably haven't completely removed the burr. More over, the fact that your edge dulls quickly and requires steeling also indicates that you have a wire edge (a burr which although small lies on top of the apex). That wire edge though seemingly very sharp will roll over quickly, hence your need to steel it to return it to the centre. This wire edged burr really needs removing to get to the true apex. If you do that then you will not only have a sharper edge ( at most 120 Bess probably lower, ideally sub 100) but the retention will be better.
Try honing at a slightly higher angle initially, with diamonds preferably (. 5 micron or 1 micron). Maybe + 2 degrees for lower end knives, 1-1.5 degrees for main stream knives.
Then rehone at the exact angle you ground to. I know this seems counterintuitive but it works!
Refer to Vadims book, an appendix gives a whole list of honing protocols for different steels. You don't need to go down the paper wheels route or follow them exactly, it will give you a general idea of how to hone particular steels.
Hope this helps. As the o/p pointed out. Don't despair. You will get there in the end!

[BUTCHER]

Thanks for the replies.
This is what confusing to me. I have followed Vadims protocols to the letter for the victorinox knives.
Sharpen at 15 dps with SG250 or 400 CBN wheel
Hone on leather with tormek paste or autosol at the same angle using fvb and cal cap for 3 to 4 heavy Passes per side.
Then I use a felt wheel .65 density with 1 micron diamond spray at +2 degrees 3 passes per side which I have tried very lightly and also harder with limited success.
For finishing I use a second leather wheel with a green honing bar from Lee Valley at an exact angle for 1 pass.
Seems like it should work well but I just haven't been able to get the sub 100 bess.
I must be missing something small in my protocol but can't figure out what it is

[BUTCHER]

When I test my edges with the 8 lb fishing line like in the video by Vadim I can't see the little dent in the apex from the wire edge. Even looking at it with the kingmas scope it looks smooth.
That makes me wonder if I have properly deburred but am rounding the edge somehow in my protocol

[tgbto]

Just my two cents, because I have no experience in a commercial environment such as yours...

Before going the full Vadmin protocol, it might be nice to take a look at what improvement each step brings to make sure it is worth the time and effort. What is your BESS score with just the SG @15dps and a good honing on the leather wheel with PA-70 ? I think you should not settle for anything higher than 120/130 BESS. My SWIBOs are usually in the 100/120 BESS ballpark after just this.

Then gradually add each step, and see if you get an improvement that makes it worth your while. Please remember that while Wootz showed that his techniques could get him weel into the SUB-100 BESS zone, he also demonstrated that initial sharpness has little influence over edge retention.

With whatever little experience I have, and therefore a very basic technique, I find that the felt wheel only works for me with very hard/brittle steels and not softer, more malleable ones. My Victorinox SWIBOs are definitely in the second category. Felt wheel with 1 micron diamond spray seemed to *add* 30/40 BESS for those.

[Sir Amwell]

Agree with last post. I never got improved sharpness using felt wheel.
These days I keep things simple. For most everyday steels I set edge on T8 on 400 grit CBN wheel. I then hone on a WSKO on the grinder attachment with leather belt and Tormek paste, first at +2 degrees and then at exact. A final hone on a hanging leather strop, no compound. I vary this for higher end (harder more brittle steels) using Vadims appendix as a guide.
I am not so hung up on sub 50 Bess anymore. I am fine with 80-110 Bess range. That tells me the burr is gone and I have a crisp clean apexed edge.
My customers are always happy with this too.

[tgbto]

+1 for the WSKO for quick deburring. The leather belt with Tormek paste does wonders.

[3D Anvil]

A score of 140 BESS is pretty darned good for a 19 dps blade.  When you see extraordinarily low scores, it's usually with an edge in the 12-15 dps range, or even lower.  Geometry is king.

[Ken S]

For several years, I enjoyed corresponding with our member, Wootz (Vadim Kriachuk of Knifegrinders). I considered him a friend and admired his dedicated research in pushing back the frontiers of sharpening. I especially appreciated the respect he showed Tormek, even though his evolving technique often differed from traditional Tormek technique. Here is a link to my favorite video he made. It shows the achievable BESS score using only traditional Tormek equipment and technique.

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=hPCKmdPqOotI2X39

Ken

PS I agree with 3DAnvil about the effect of edge angle.