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I tried using the rock hard felt wheel for a considerable time before ditching it. I could never make it work for me. I asked forum members about their experiences using it and got mixed , polarised responses as to its efficacy, but no real definitive answers. So it's time to ask the same question again.
Do you use a rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond paste to deburr and what are your thoughts on it?

Yes! Me and others have been carping on about this for a while now. For us volume sharpeners it would be so good. Got to convince Tormek before someone else does it for them. It's surely in their interest business wise to develop this?

I have 4 CBN wheels from Knifegrinders ( sadly not available anymore as Ken mentioned). They have had fairly heavy use over 3 years. Hundreds of knives. The wheels I have run in water only ( no anti corrosive required) and so far have had no problems with them and they are still performing excellently. I would steer away from grinding dry with them (negates the whole point of water cooled dust free Tormek grinding). Unfortunately I can't recommend any purchase points, but get ones that will run in plain water. I know others promote using an anti corrosive but if you are sharpening in volume it becomes a fiddle faddle and is one more thing to keep worrying about. If you let the wheels dry naturally after a sharpening session you should be fine. Maybe try Schleifjunkies to see what their CBN wheels require so as not to void any warranty.

Both ways will work.
If you are batch sharpening, for customers say, then the calcapp is great for setting your usb to a set angle for a set blade projection. Then you need a batch of old style , adjustable svm jigs to enable you set the correct projection for each knife. Just one set up for as many knives/svm jigs you have.
The new angle setting jig and kj jig really comes into its own for say just one knife here and there or a batch of differing knives, grinding angles, blade thicknesses etc.
For example, I just sharpened a dozen kitchen knives all at 15 degrees/side using the first set up. Saved a load of time!
The same customer gave 2 non typical knives to sharpen with extra thick blade stock , wide blades and requiring 20 degrees/ side. The angle setter and self centring kj45 made set up quick and easy.

Love this Kwakster. There is something indescribably exciting about finding old tools and bringing them back to life! After all a knife is a knife and the basic design hasn't changed much in millennia. Sheffield steel used to be the envy of the world but alas is no longer producing. There are still some knife makers producing good knives. Taylor's Eye Witness springs to mind.

Good posts. I certainly never intended to imply that what I posted was the best or the only method. My intention was to initiate a forum discussion. Those of you who have followed the forum long enough may remember when I first posted the kenjig around ten years ago. It was based on Dutchman's tables. Several improved jigs based on it soon appeared and soon after several apps. These went far beyond my simple ideas. I hope this discussion may evolve the same way.

I have always been puzzled by both the online classes and Wootz' videos. In both cases, they address the set up very well for single knives. From an instructional standpoint, I see the value of more intensely focusing on a single knife for simplicity. I also think that the single knife only approach does a disservice to viewers who may have multiple or many knives to sharpen in a limited period of time. Whether the method is using the Anglemaster, the black marker, or an applet, restarting at square zero for each knife seems very time inefficient to me.

I don't know the Tormek technique for sharpening many knives. I did notice that many of the single knives shown in Wootz' videos had a Projection of 140mm. That would indicate him having an organized plan to me. If any of you know about such a plan, please post it.

Regarding the preference for adjusting he microadjust by raising, that is a well known machine shop and woodworking practice. Adjustment screws, whether in machines like metal lathes or woodworking bench planes, have a small amount of slop in the threads. It is good practice to turn the knobs slightly to take up the slack before making precise adjustments. In the case of the support bar threads, this means making adjustments by raising the support bar. This keeps the threads under tension. Tormek is quite correct in stating this preference. Unfortunately, they have not explained why.


Tormek prefers one jig per function geared to handle the majority of tools. This works very well for the majority of tools or knives. Unfortunately, not all knives or tools the sharpener in the field fall into this comfortable majority category. As such, I believe the resourceful sharpener should have several jigs and techniques in his bag of tricks. For thick knives which fall outside the range of the SVM-45, using the KJ-45 seems the logical choice. For knives within the SVM-45 thickness range, especially for multiple knives, the SVM-45 seems the choice, especially those made before 2002 with longer threaded shafts.

Yes, a KJ-45 with adjustable end stop would be the ideal jig. However, we do not presently have that option, so we must devise workarounds.

Ken

Here's the thing Ken.
First up Dutchman's comment: "keep it simple, add an adjustable stop to the KJ45"
Please do this Tormek.

Secondly regarding the single knife approach as opposed to batch sharpening.
The new KS123 combined with the newish KJ45 is great for single knives. No calculator or measuring instruments required. But for batch sharpening it's a time waster.
Most kitchen knives can be jigged up in the old SVM jigs (I have 9 of them) and then with the help of a homemade jig, set to one projection distance (I use 139mm).
Then using a USB with a stop imposed on it ( I use a lockable sleeve) to a set height for whatever angle you like ( mine is set for 15degrees per side for a 139mm projection), you are 'batch ready'.
For those 9 knives there is no adjustment needed only changing stones.
This is repeatable for honing on a FVB with the leather wheel with a similar USB with a stop on it.
This is a great time saver and removes any 'faff'.
As you will appreciate THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WITH AN ADJUSTABLE STOP, in order to set all those jigged up knives to a constant projection.

I find the KS123/KJ45 just fine for all other knives that fall outside this bracket or want different angles etc.

So I am still clamouring for the KJ 45 to have an adjustable stop.

Apologies in advance for going over old ground but I think worth revisiting.
The introduction of the KS123 has highlighted the old topic of the slight movement of the USB when locking it in place with the nuts on the sleeve housing. Not talking backlash here. Neither am I referring to the need to push down on the USB above the micro adjust when locking to minimise movement. That movement is still there and it's no longer a suspicion as you can see the pointer move on the scale of the KS123 if you check after locking down.
Does this matter?
I think it does.
There are issues with accuracy and consistency with this.
Some will say not enough to affect things overly much but if I'm going to hone a knife at +1.5 degrees from the original grinding angle to remove a bur and then at exact to clean up, a discrepancy of +/- half a degree ( sometimes more) is going to matter. To me anyway.
So any thoughts on this?
Any work arounds?
As a slight aside. I think the movement caused by locking (as the end of the screw engages with the leg of the USB in the sleeve) is not so much up and down as side to side? Hence it's the projection distance being affected rather than the height of the USB. If that makes sense.
Right. That's my Sunday morning issue put out there. I'm back to the workshop to dream of a perfect world........

Well put Ken. Couldn't agree more.

Not really... a felt wheel removes the burr and cleans up the edge (and can polish), while an SJ wheel will refine the edge and polish the bevel, but still leaves a burr that needs to be removed.

I'm going to be a bit more emphatic.  Definitely not, for the reasons cbwx34 says.  Following Knife Grinders deburring principles, whether I use the SJ wheel or not, I always finish using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamonds (I use paste rather than spray) at some "degree" of higher angle, usually 1°-2°. 

But, now that I mention the higher angle for deburring, I'm not recalling at the moment if anyone has tried to deburr using only the SJ at one of those "higher" angles (someone must have).  I suspect it would not work to the same degree due the significant difference in abrasiveness, SJ ~ 4,000-5,000 grit, 1µ ~ 14,000 grit. 

For some reason I've hardly ever got the rock hard felt wheel to work for me. The sharpness invariably goes down and not retrievable with subsequent honing. So I'd given up on it really. I tried again using the new angle setter to see if accuracy would improve it. Same results, regardless of varying the angle.
Maybe it's my bad technique. I've posted about this in the past with mixed answers.
So I wonder if you could give a detailed overview of your technique Rick, when using the felt wheel with 1 micron diamonds?

Sorry that wasn't very clear.
I noticed from the instructional video that the the protrusion was being set in the vee of the jig at the belly of the knife and thought it may be problematic as the correct protrusion should be set before the curve of the belly ( ie on the straight portion of the blade) to allow for pivoting and or raising to follow the curvature of the blade.
If you flip the knife ( handle on the left) you'll hit the vee at a straighter portion of the blade for most kitchen knives.
Can't be said of shorter blades I suppose...
Or, like Pers prototype, could one set the projection before going near the stone?

If it's worrying you , you can always flip the knife over to set in the vee on the straighter portion of the blade?

Just to add my pennies worth. I think Bess scores in the range of 150 (130/140/150/160/170) indicate that the burr has not been completely removed.
Whilst I gave up chasing sub 50 Bess a long time ago I still use the tester to indicate to me that the burr has been properly dealt with. I'm happy with anything under 120 and more than happy under 100.
So I think maybe you need to pay a little more attention not just to bevel angle but honing technique. The Tormek compound on leather wheel is good for most steels but harder steels really need diamonds and a very precise honing angle to completely remove the burr.
One important thing I took from studying Wootz book on sharpening is that the secret is not just achieving a true apex on a knife edge but how to remove the burr.
That is why his book is titled as it is.

This does raise some questions though.
It is fairly well known I think that sharpening softer steels on CBN is inadvisable due to clogging effect.
Could the same be said of diamond?
If no then what are the properties of the two that gives rise to this?

Second that.
First task in sharpening is knowing what you are dealing with.
If you can't identify the steel on a kitchen knife then assume it's of low hardness and progress from there.
At least you won't risk damaging expensive CBN or diamond wheels.
If you're not making progress on an unidentified steel you can always switch to super abrasives later.

Agree with last post. I never got improved sharpness using felt wheel.
These days I keep things simple. For most everyday steels I set edge on T8 on 400 grit CBN wheel. I then hone on a WSKO on the grinder attachment with leather belt and Tormek paste, first at +2 degrees and then at exact. A final hone on a hanging leather strop, no compound. I vary this for higher end (harder more brittle steels) using Vadims appendix as a guide.
I am not so hung up on sub 50 Bess anymore. I am fine with 80-110 Bess range. That tells me the burr is gone and I have a crisp clean apexed edge.
My customers are always happy with this too.