Messages

Thanks for this Rick. Interesting.
From what I understand (and I may be wrong in this) your Bess scores would indicate that complete burr removal has not been achieved. This is not a criticism of you because you have freely given this info at cost of time and effort to yourself to try to answer some questions. Researching.
From somewhere I remember Vadim stating that a score of over 120 Bess is indicative of incomplete burr removal.
So, polishing on the SJ wheel at exact or +2 is not completely removing burr?
Honing on the felt wheel is not removing burr completely either?
And a final strop on kangaroo is also not achieving it?
So I return to my original post on this topic.
Does anyone have success using the felt wheel for honing?
I never did which is why I stopped using it.
I now do much the same process as 3D Anvil mentions,
Whilst the results are a bit variable, they are consistently lower than 120 Bess ( my bench mark, I never let a knife back to my customers above 120), and if I am suspicious about an edge ( paper tests, rizla paper tests, shaving etc), I Bess test and then hanging Roo strop and this usually takes a 140 score to below 120.
For me this is so much quicker and less fiddle faddle than all the felt/ SJ wheel stuff and suits me for batch sharpening of conventional knife steels. Higher end, higher hardness steels just require a slight adjustment of the leather belt honing stage.
Having said all that, what you are doing IS research and therefore valuable so id be interested in any further results. It's all adding to the data base of knowledge and someone will find it useful.
Thanks again.

Thanks for that Rick.
One last question.
When you say 1 micron diamond paste.
You literally mean the oily paste?
Or the emulsion (usually in alcohol)?
If the paste, where do you get it from?
Regards, Simon.

Whilst I agree with practically all your points Ken there is a clarification to be made. If one is crossing from the Tormek to say a 1x30 leather belt in order to hone and say you want to increase the angle by half a degree as is common for some steels, you would want to be as precise as possible and be confident of your angles. A goniometer isn't always easy to read precisely and the sharpie method on a flexible leather belt won't tell enough.
But yes, my advice is stick with one (preferably the ks 123) and don't mix and match.

Hi Rick. Thanks for your reply. Yes, for me you can take it as given that I'm well set and accustomed to altering honing angles accurately depending on steel and edge angle and using FVB.I'm interested to note in your post that you use the felt wheel just prior to a final strop on hanging leather.
I think the process I've been using is the same.
BUT, for standard mainstream steels the felt wheel, for me , invariably increases the Bess score significantly and then subsequent final honing, be it hanging leather or paper wheels with diamond lowers it a little but never in line with for example Vadims protocols.
So is there a lack of technique here? Or is there something else I'm missing?
The only time I've found a benefit with using the felt wheel is with Global knives as per Vadims suggestions, ie + 0.8 degrees on felt wheel then exact on leather wheel.
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.

I bought my CBN wheels from Vadim and haven't really had trouble with them loading up. The 1000 grit does a bit more than the coarser grits, I occasionally use one of those rubbery things that are designed to de clog belts and it works well.

I can really sympathise with you here. I spent a long time trying to get Vadims protocols to work consistently with Tormek, rock hard felt wheel then slotted paper wheels with diamond pastes. I gave up in the end having identified that the problem was with the rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond. I could virtually never get it to progress in the right direction according to Vadims step by step protocols.
I have asked several times on the forum for others experiences/opinions on this with mixed replies so not got anywhere really. If I could get some concrete replies as to proper use or tips I might reconsider using it in my set up.
I'm sharpening lots of knives and gave up chasing sub 50 Bess and am happy with anything around 100, which indicates to me that I've apexed and completely removed the root of the burr. After a while the Bess tester becomes almost redundant as experience tells that you've achieved around a hundred. If I'm having trouble then the tester is still a useful tool.
So you are doing incredibly well with your 50 Bess scores!
But you've got that itch that needs to be scratched!
Maybe others can help you (and me) with the felt wheel issue?
As has been pointed out before, Vadim was obviously a master sharpener with amazing skills and a feel for it. Also he advocated 12 dps for most knives which I think will lower the Bess scores slightly. I standardise at 15 dps and it's not uncommon to achieve 70-80 Bess with my speedy protocols. Vadim no doubt would have got that to 50-60!
Best of luck.

I tried using the rock hard felt wheel for a considerable time before ditching it. I could never make it work for me. I asked forum members about their experiences using it and got mixed , polarised responses as to its efficacy, but no real definitive answers. So it's time to ask the same question again.
Do you use a rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond paste to deburr and what are your thoughts on it?

Yes! Me and others have been carping on about this for a while now. For us volume sharpeners it would be so good. Got to convince Tormek before someone else does it for them. It's surely in their interest business wise to develop this?

I have 4 CBN wheels from Knifegrinders ( sadly not available anymore as Ken mentioned). They have had fairly heavy use over 3 years. Hundreds of knives. The wheels I have run in water only ( no anti corrosive required) and so far have had no problems with them and they are still performing excellently. I would steer away from grinding dry with them (negates the whole point of water cooled dust free Tormek grinding). Unfortunately I can't recommend any purchase points, but get ones that will run in plain water. I know others promote using an anti corrosive but if you are sharpening in volume it becomes a fiddle faddle and is one more thing to keep worrying about. If you let the wheels dry naturally after a sharpening session you should be fine. Maybe try Schleifjunkies to see what their CBN wheels require so as not to void any warranty.

Both ways will work.
If you are batch sharpening, for customers say, then the calcapp is great for setting your usb to a set angle for a set blade projection. Then you need a batch of old style , adjustable svm jigs to enable you set the correct projection for each knife. Just one set up for as many knives/svm jigs you have.
The new angle setting jig and kj jig really comes into its own for say just one knife here and there or a batch of differing knives, grinding angles, blade thicknesses etc.
For example, I just sharpened a dozen kitchen knives all at 15 degrees/side using the first set up. Saved a load of time!
The same customer gave 2 non typical knives to sharpen with extra thick blade stock , wide blades and requiring 20 degrees/ side. The angle setter and self centring kj45 made set up quick and easy.

Love this Kwakster. There is something indescribably exciting about finding old tools and bringing them back to life! After all a knife is a knife and the basic design hasn't changed much in millennia. Sheffield steel used to be the envy of the world but alas is no longer producing. There are still some knife makers producing good knives. Taylor's Eye Witness springs to mind.

Good posts. I certainly never intended to imply that what I posted was the best or the only method. My intention was to initiate a forum discussion. Those of you who have followed the forum long enough may remember when I first posted the kenjig around ten years ago. It was based on Dutchman's tables. Several improved jigs based on it soon appeared and soon after several apps. These went far beyond my simple ideas. I hope this discussion may evolve the same way.

I have always been puzzled by both the online classes and Wootz' videos. In both cases, they address the set up very well for single knives. From an instructional standpoint, I see the value of more intensely focusing on a single knife for simplicity. I also think that the single knife only approach does a disservice to viewers who may have multiple or many knives to sharpen in a limited period of time. Whether the method is using the Anglemaster, the black marker, or an applet, restarting at square zero for each knife seems very time inefficient to me.

I don't know the Tormek technique for sharpening many knives. I did notice that many of the single knives shown in Wootz' videos had a Projection of 140mm. That would indicate him having an organized plan to me. If any of you know about such a plan, please post it.

Regarding the preference for adjusting he microadjust by raising, that is a well known machine shop and woodworking practice. Adjustment screws, whether in machines like metal lathes or woodworking bench planes, have a small amount of slop in the threads. It is good practice to turn the knobs slightly to take up the slack before making precise adjustments. In the case of the support bar threads, this means making adjustments by raising the support bar. This keeps the threads under tension. Tormek is quite correct in stating this preference. Unfortunately, they have not explained why.


Tormek prefers one jig per function geared to handle the majority of tools. This works very well for the majority of tools or knives. Unfortunately, not all knives or tools the sharpener in the field fall into this comfortable majority category. As such, I believe the resourceful sharpener should have several jigs and techniques in his bag of tricks. For thick knives which fall outside the range of the SVM-45, using the KJ-45 seems the logical choice. For knives within the SVM-45 thickness range, especially for multiple knives, the SVM-45 seems the choice, especially those made before 2002 with longer threaded shafts.

Yes, a KJ-45 with adjustable end stop would be the ideal jig. However, we do not presently have that option, so we must devise workarounds.

Ken

Here's the thing Ken.
First up Dutchman's comment: "keep it simple, add an adjustable stop to the KJ45"
Please do this Tormek.

Secondly regarding the single knife approach as opposed to batch sharpening.
The new KS123 combined with the newish KJ45 is great for single knives. No calculator or measuring instruments required. But for batch sharpening it's a time waster.
Most kitchen knives can be jigged up in the old SVM jigs (I have 9 of them) and then with the help of a homemade jig, set to one projection distance (I use 139mm).
Then using a USB with a stop imposed on it ( I use a lockable sleeve) to a set height for whatever angle you like ( mine is set for 15degrees per side for a 139mm projection), you are 'batch ready'.
For those 9 knives there is no adjustment needed only changing stones.
This is repeatable for honing on a FVB with the leather wheel with a similar USB with a stop on it.
This is a great time saver and removes any 'faff'.
As you will appreciate THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WITH AN ADJUSTABLE STOP, in order to set all those jigged up knives to a constant projection.

I find the KS123/KJ45 just fine for all other knives that fall outside this bracket or want different angles etc.

So I am still clamouring for the KJ 45 to have an adjustable stop.

Apologies in advance for going over old ground but I think worth revisiting.
The introduction of the KS123 has highlighted the old topic of the slight movement of the USB when locking it in place with the nuts on the sleeve housing. Not talking backlash here. Neither am I referring to the need to push down on the USB above the micro adjust when locking to minimise movement. That movement is still there and it's no longer a suspicion as you can see the pointer move on the scale of the KS123 if you check after locking down.
Does this matter?
I think it does.
There are issues with accuracy and consistency with this.
Some will say not enough to affect things overly much but if I'm going to hone a knife at +1.5 degrees from the original grinding angle to remove a bur and then at exact to clean up, a discrepancy of +/- half a degree ( sometimes more) is going to matter. To me anyway.
So any thoughts on this?
Any work arounds?
As a slight aside. I think the movement caused by locking (as the end of the screw engages with the leg of the USB in the sleeve) is not so much up and down as side to side? Hence it's the projection distance being affected rather than the height of the USB. If that makes sense.
Right. That's my Sunday morning issue put out there. I'm back to the workshop to dream of a perfect world........

Well put Ken. Couldn't agree more.

Not really... a felt wheel removes the burr and cleans up the edge (and can polish), while an SJ wheel will refine the edge and polish the bevel, but still leaves a burr that needs to be removed.

I'm going to be a bit more emphatic.  Definitely not, for the reasons cbwx34 says.  Following Knife Grinders deburring principles, whether I use the SJ wheel or not, I always finish using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamonds (I use paste rather than spray) at some "degree" of higher angle, usually 1°-2°. 

But, now that I mention the higher angle for deburring, I'm not recalling at the moment if anyone has tried to deburr using only the SJ at one of those "higher" angles (someone must have).  I suspect it would not work to the same degree due the significant difference in abrasiveness, SJ ~ 4,000-5,000 grit, 1µ ~ 14,000 grit. 

For some reason I've hardly ever got the rock hard felt wheel to work for me. The sharpness invariably goes down and not retrievable with subsequent honing. So I'd given up on it really. I tried again using the new angle setter to see if accuracy would improve it. Same results, regardless of varying the angle.
Maybe it's my bad technique. I've posted about this in the past with mixed answers.
So I wonder if you could give a detailed overview of your technique Rick, when using the felt wheel with 1 micron diamonds?