Messages

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My personal mantra is quality over quantity.
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This is mine, maybe just a longer way of saying the same thing or similar.  Was given to me by my major professor in grad school.  Rang true for me then and ever since.  Might look familiar to some, as it is in my signature bar.

"Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price."

Welcome to the forum, Tim. I hold John in high regard, and I am a devoted fan of the Tormek online classes. However, with the DBS-22, my first recommendation would be the video Alan Holtham made for Tormek. Alan made it around the time the DBS-22 was introduced. I have owned my DBS-22 for many years, but use it infrequently. Whenever I use it, I always watch Alan's video first to refresh my skill. Here is a link:

https://youtu.be/fSUa1iFUzkM?si=zF1taOfMlfBHES1V

Keep us posted.

Ken

Do yourself a favor, watch Alan's video. 

It would be helpful if you could post a photo of what you are asking about, the drill bit jig.  Post several of other aspects of your setup, etc.

Rick

[The se77 has a small lip that supposedly makes the blade square. But are we to rely on that?]

...snip...But my biggest problem is after all that time and effort I have an edge that is not square. Can you help me trouble shoot. The se77 has a small lip that supposedly makes the blade square. But are we to rely on that?

Welcome to the forum.  You've come to the right place. 

Put in the time to do some reading in the extensive history of posts, in this subforum, but also maybe in the General forum.  This has been discussed, repeatedly and extensively, so all the answers you might receive now have already been said/posted. 

There are others here with a lot more experience with the jig than me, but I'm going to express what I think I know. 

If you mean the supposed centering lines on the side of the casting (see image below), next to the adjusting screws, NO!  This is just my opinion, and I've stated it here before, while the casting are fairly "precision", they are still just that, castings.  And those marks are very broad, so are not really reliable for indicating centered position for grinding blades. They should be considered a general reference at best. 
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More importantly, there are several factors affecting squareness of the resulting bevel.  Differential pressure applied to one side or the of the blade during grinding is one.  Plane blades, being as wide as they are, are especially susceptible to pressure.  Clamping the blade in the jig against the inside edge, probably as described in the instructions is not particularly reliable (in part due to it being a casting...).  Squareness of the blade in the jig should be verified using a small precision square held against the front surface of the jig.   

The SE-77 is quite an improvement over the earlier version, due to addition of the adjusting screws.  I think the primary purpose is to allow for cambering the blade edge, but they serve well for adjusting the blade to achieve a square/perpendicular bevel.  It takes a lot of fiddling to get them set properly and that setting routine must be repeated for each plane blade put into the jig.   

Use of the black marker is extremely helpful in revealing where grinding is occuring and making small, frequent adjustments to work your way to what you want. 

Good luck, and please do take the time to ready what others have to say about all this, in the timeline of posts. 

Rick

[drilling]

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They are called self threading screws, are we supposed to install them with no pilot holes? I'm pretty stuck here.

If the self-tapping screws won't penetrate then you do have to drill pilot holes. It sounds like your drill bit is dull. Small drill bits dull easily. Buy a new one.

There is a difference between self-tapping/threading and self-drilling screws.  Self-drilling have a drill bit point and essentially drill the necessary pilot hole without the separate use of a drill.  They are limited in the thickness of sheet metal, though.  There are two types of self-tapping/threading screws, some have a blunt, non-drilling point, some have a sharp point that can penetrate soft materials like wood and some plastics.  The screws provided in the MB-100 kit are the blunt, non-self drilling type and require a pilot hole. 

However, one is not limited to the screws provided in the MB-100 kit.  Self-drilling screws likely are available, possibly in better hardware stores but certainly online, like However, one is not limited to the screws provided in the MB-100 kit.  Self-drilling screws likely are available, possibly in better hardware stores but certainly online, like McMaster-Carr and Fastenal.

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Self tapping/threading vs self-drilling screws.
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MB-100 screws.  Pilot holes required, per Tormek instructions. 
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If the self-tapping screws won't penetrate then you do have to drill pilot holes. It sounds like your drill bit is dull. Small drill bits dull easily. Buy a new one.

3/16" bradpoint bit,

Brad point bits are specifically for wood and are not for drilling steel. You will need a HSS twist drill. I have used them on aluminium but would never use them on steel.

Yup, I was in the process of responding when these came in.  Brad point drills are for wood and would dull quite quickly tried on metal.  There are special drills for sheet metal, but you don't really need one and I'm not sure they come small enough for what you are doing.  Regular HSS drills will work well enough if used properly.  A bona fide "center-drill" might actually be best, but with care to only run the centering point into the sheet metal, not the broad beveled flutes, followed by a regular drill if the centering point doesn't cut all the way through.  Center drill would be much stiffer and helps keep things from wandering more than standard drills.  Best to center-punch the locations, however, as even center-drills will wander, particularly if hand held or even on a drill press. 

600-900 might be too fast, at least for getting the holes started.  Good to use bona fide cutting oil, not just any lubricating oil, but better some oil than none.  For getting holes like this started, it might take a good bit of pressure so the cutting flutes can get a bite.  That is where the balance between speed and pressure is important, slow enough and hard enough so the flutes can dig in, but not too slow or too hard.  Having the workpiece securely held in place and the drill in a machine quill helps a lot, but a drill press (woodworking types) often can't go slow enough. 

Commercially available drill that might be thought to be good for sheet metal, but really isn't.  Notice how the tip of the left flute is already dull.  Center point is much too large.  This drill is actually about 5/8" dia.  Drills like this are likely hard to find small enough for what you are doing. 
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Sheet metal drill I found online.  Small center point, very low profile primary flutes, still sloping down and away, albeit, at a shallow angle.  I've never used a drill like this.
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Spot welding drill, but only available in larger sizes.
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A sheet metal drill the way my father would hand grind them and is essential the same as tthe spot welding drill above (very similar to the spot weld drill above). Notice the tiny bit of point on the outer corner of the left flute, helps when the drill breaks though, cutting cleanly rather than the flutes grabbing (right side is either dulled or just not ground high enough). Very effective, but this one is about 1/2" dia. and would be extremely difficult or impossible to hand grind at the size you need. 
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I use Tap Magic Cutting Fluid, which is available in small cans, but I didn't find them on the Tap Magic web site, just this type
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I'm a big fan of ER collet chucks, I have used them on quite a few projects as well as on my lathes and mill. There are a lot of different sizes available on eBay for very reasonable prices.

I agree completely.  I'm a big fan of collets in general, being most familiar with the "C" class, 5C and 3C.  I really like them for lathe work as there is not so much whirling mass of steel close to the workpiece.

Rick,

I left mine hexagonal. It seemed to work well, but I've not sharpened a lot of small bits.

How did you align the flutes?  Just keeping it about where it should be as you tightened the chuck?  I figured that would be tricky, maintaining both projection and flute alignment.  That is why I though it would work better to have the barrel of the pin vise round so it could be rotated and moved as unit for both projection and flute positioning.  But... I never did try it, so...   

I was a bit concerned about what all would be involved with trying to turn down the plastic, hex sleeve.  Taking it all off to expose the base metal barrel?  I figured I'd be doing that between centers on the lathe. 
But... I never did try it, so...

I think I'm going to like the ER8 collet/chuck set.  It goes a little bit larger (0.197") than the Starrett pin vise set (0.187") and I doubt I'll be trying to sharpen drills as small as 2mm (0.079"). I also have a Vevor MB-13 drill sharpener, which uses ER20 collets, down to 3mm and I've found it to be close to acceptable for small drills, although I still like the finish given by the Tormek much better. 

Rick,

I used your earlier idea, but with this pin vise:

How did that work?  I never actually tried it - never go around to turning down the hex handle to round. 

Rick

Why in the world would anyone use any wheel dry on a Tormek?  Completely eliminates one of the benefits of even having a Tormek.  As Ken mentioned, early on, some CBN wheels rusted when used in water.  I have two of the CBN wheels where the warranty would be voided if used in water.  I've been using one, in water with the Tormek ACC solution, a 180 grit, on my T8, for 5 or 6 years with not one speck of rust.  I just recently added an 80 grit CBN wheel, used in the same manner. 

Another reason I would never use any grinding wheel dry on a Tormek is the damage the grinding grit can do to the cast zinc Tormek jigs, in particular the DBS-22 Drill Bit Sharpening Jig.  I had the DBS set up on a slow speed bench grinder and an 8" dia., 80 grit CBN wheel.  I found out quickly that the grinding grit was getting in the sliding surfaces and causing wear.  Not doing that anymore and is why I got the same 80 grit CBN wheel in 250mm diameter for the T8 so I could have the fast metal removal, in water, without damaging the jigs. 

Rick:
As I feared, while the Pin Vice clamps and allows sufficient clearance at the grind wheel face. The back end of the Drill bit is not supported sufficiently to provide the required centricity for sharpening.
Essentially the drill bit requires total support in the same way the DBS-22 supports bits larger then 3mm.
So this means a clamp similar in nature to the DBS-22 drill bit clamp perhaps a simplified slip in sub assembly which will cradle the drill bit in its full length from 3t5 mm of the grinding wheel to the fullest length of the bit shank.
A Pin Vice or a collet only provides clamping and support at the forward end of the drill bit which becomes very apparent when you begin the sharpening process of the sub 3mm drill bits.
This is a bit disappointing however perhaps someone else will step forward with another suggestion to aid us all in the pursuit of Sub 3mm drill bit sharpening
Thanks for Listening

This is a very old thread, but I may have found a solution to the dilema courierdog presents.  I have just received an ER8 spring collet set that has collets from 2 to 5 mm internal diameter, in 0.5mm increments.  These collets are full ID their full length, which is a little over 14mm (~9/16").  This isn't real long, but it may be long enough to have enough bearing length over the flutes to hold the drills in good alignment without shifting.  I haven't had a chance to try them yet.  And the collet chuck shaft is longer than the length of the DBS-22 drill bit jig clamp/holder and is perfectly round its full length.  Should be perfect for holding and adjusting for drill bit projection and flute alignment.

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At some point, I'll make time to give them a try and will report on how it goes.  I still have my doubts as there is enough movement (slop) in the DBS-22 sliding platform and the drill bit holder/clamp that it may still not work well for small drill bits. 

Could someone post a link to the actual class video under discussion here, please?  I've looked at their YT web site and not found this.  The latest video I could find is the "Tormek Way" which I know is not it. 

Thanks,

Rick

Does the wheel actually wobble on the shaft, or is the wobble due to the shape of the wheel itself?  If the wheel is loose on the shaft and wobbles, it may be that the arbor hole has worn and/or is no longer round.  If it does not wobble on the shaft, and the sides of the wheel wobble, as shown in your video, that would appear to be the result of the shape of the wheel. 

I've read a few times here in the forum the opinion that side wobble, even as much as shown in your video does not really adversely affect sharpening, as long as the outside diameter (OD) of the wheel can be trued, presumably using the Tormek Truing Tool.  Do you have one of those and have you tried truing OD, which is the only surface that matters on that type of stone. 

Not sure I'd go for that job.  Much depends on your setup and experience.  What equipment do you have?  Do you already have the drill bit sharpening jig and have you used it?  What grinding wheels do you have?  Just the standard SG-250?  SB-250?  Any diamond or CBN wheels?  How many drill bits have you sharpened? 

If you had the jig and had sharpened a few drill bits with the equipment you have, I's suspect you already have a good sense of the task. 

The standard SG wheel is really not adequate for the task. Most decent drill bits are High Speed Steel (HSS).  Tormek came out with the SB wheel specifically for the task of sharpening HSS because the SG won't "cut it".  I found the SB wheel wasn't agressive enough and went searching for be other alternatives.  I went through several, including Tormek diamond wheels (DC), 180 CBN grit, standard bench grinding wheel fitted to the Tormek and running in water (T8), slow speed bench grinder fitted with Tormek tool rests/jig, variable speed belt grinder fitted with Tormek tool rests/jig.  My last acquisition is a 250mm diameter, 80 grit CBN wheel on the T8.  This last one appears to be aggressive enough, but I haven't tried it with drill bits yet (worked great on plane blades). 

Even so, I think the Tormek may be too slow for this sort of volume task.  I think a better alternative would be something like the Vevor MR-13 A or B sharpener, depending on if you want to be able to web-thin (A model) or split-point (B Model).  About the same price range as the Tormek drill bit jig (if you don't have it yet) but way faster, particularly for volume work.   

The grind finish is not nearly as nice as factory or what can be achieved with a full suite of Tormek wheels, but adequate.  It is most effective at rapid metal removal (something the Tormek is weak on) and I suspect given the quantity you're looking at, many of the bits will be burned/chipped/broken and require a lot of metal removal. I use the Vevor Model B for roughing bits and finish them on the Tormek, but I doubt I'd try doing that for such a large quantity of bits as you are looking at. 

You are on this forum and there is a drill bit sharpening specific subforum, so go there and do a bunch of reading about what others have experienced.  I've posted a bunch there.  Also, there are several discussions on metal machining forum and quite a few YouTube videos reviewing drill bit sharpening like the Vevor. 

Alan Holtham does an excellent job demonstrating how the Tormek jig works here, but that is not the whole story.  Mr. Pete does a great job demonstrating the Vevor sharpeners, Model A and Model B.

Rick

True it enough to clean up to outer surface and chamfer/radius the corners, putting a larger radius on the chipped side and use it. 

I suffered what I thought was a fatal accidental fall of my SJ-250 when the table it was on collapsed at a farmers market in 2018.  I posted about it here then.  I've been using it ever since with not one single issue due to the cracks and chips. 

Here it is three years after
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And here it is in 2024
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With a little bit of time, the acetone evaporated and the cracks closed back up and are barely discernible now.  I don't even think about the fact that it was once cracked and chipped what appeared beyond repair or continued use. 

Rick

Thank you for the kind welcome and helpful replies gentlemen.

The threads which retain both of the wheels on the shaft are definitely Right Hand, 12mm X 1.75mm pitch, a standard ISO 12mm nut screws on easily, I have just run a good 12mm X 1.75mm die on the threads at the stone wheel end AND the honing wheel end, which suggests to me that this is a home made (or improvised) shaft. The shaft is exactly 16mm diameter steel. ...snip...

I believe the right hand threads you see are what was standard, back in the day. Thus, the shaft may or may not have been "home made".  That the shaft is 16mm dia. is curious and could be an indicator of non-standard. What part of the shaft is 16mm?

The "new" shaft version has the left hand threads and EZ-Loc nut, which a major reason for getting it instead of fabricating a new one with right hand threads.

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I will drill out the shaft from the stone wheel later and see what the situation is with the remaining hole in the stone wheel, I am not expecting a good outcome, the crush effect of expanding rust has probably damaged the stone so I expect to have to sleeve the hole then bore the sleeve accurately to retain concentricity.
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Good luck boring out the shaft and if you have to sleeve the hole, good luck boring out the stone to make space for that sleeve.  With the "price" of the machine to you, you may be better served just buying a new "modern" standard grinding wheel (SG-250).