Messages

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      it appears there is more than one way to achieve his results.  Technique is the key.

I have to agree, just last week I got a 67 BESS result using the composite honing wheel followed by stropping on a hanging leather strop.  The latter step contributes significantly to the final sharpness.  Got some others that hovered around 100.   All were polished on the SJ wheel prior to deburring. 

Anyone ever used their diamond wheels for grinding glass?  Diamonds supposedly cut everything and may be the only thing that would work on glass.  Only talking about taking small amounts of of an edge.  I'm thinking on the flat side of the wheel. 

Hello, I bought the DBS-22 Drill Bit Sharpening Device. But I couldn't do it as described in the videos. Let me tell you, after the primary grinding, I do the secondary grinding, but I can't provide parallelism between the two sharpenings. I wonder where I'm going wrong?

Please tell us which videos you are referring to has having watched.  I would only trust the ones done by Tormek, in particular the one by Alan Holtham. 

Pictures would help a lot.  Hard to have any idea what you are saying about parallelism without seeing it.

You have to very carefully follow the instructions. Any slight deviation can lead to disaster. It took me a few drills before I was getting perfect results. Use the instructions that came with the guide and follow them very carefully and you should be good.

Also note that if you are taking out bad chipping then you may need to do the primary grind, then reset the drill and re-do the primary grind again since the leading edge may have rotated with respect to the jig if a lot of material is removed.

I agree that the instructions/process has to be followed quite carefully. It is easy to miss steps or not do them appropriately/adequately.  Slow and deliberate, checking every aspect, until you get proficient. 

I also agree that if much grinding is done on the primary facets, repositioning the drill to realign and regrind the primary facet is often necessary. When I know there is a lot to be taken off, I have sometimes rotated the drill so that once that material has been taken off, the primary faced.  Sort of "advancing" it. 

Rick

In fact, if bad chipping or broken flutes, etc. need to be taken out, it will likely be better done on a conventional high speed grinder to do the heavy metal removal before taking it to the Tormek/DBS-22. 

Good evening
I've got a T8 with DBS22 set up as per the instructions and had ago at sharpening a few drills, all have negative clearance angle so they will not drill holes!, I've trawled through a few sites on you tube, found one with exactly the same issue but the question was not answered (response's went off on numerous tangents, none related to the initial question)
Looking at the drills, it seems that something is out by 180 degrees, what should be the cutting edge is now the flank, so I have drills that may cut in reverse!
I've been hand sharpening for 55 years and thought I would give the Tormek system a go but it's not going very well, any suggestions what is going wrong?

Posting some photos of bits you are having trouble is the best way to get the feedback you are after.  Given the notion things are out by 180º, I'd say Rich Colvin's comment about flute alignment should be looked at carefully.  I found that it sometimes takes "re-alignment" of the flutes if much grinding has occurred, as the flute is ground away, it looses its proper alignment. 

Alan Holtham's video and Joseph Mazoff's article were game changers for me and primary reasons why I bought a T8 in the first place. Like, Ken, I don't sharpen drill bits very often, but when I do, I watch Alan's video to refresh my memory. 

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My personal mantra is quality over quantity.
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This is mine, maybe just a longer way of saying the same thing or similar.  Was given to me by my major professor in grad school.  Rang true for me then and ever since.  Might look familiar to some, as it is in my signature bar.

"Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price."

Welcome to the forum, Tim. I hold John in high regard, and I am a devoted fan of the Tormek online classes. However, with the DBS-22, my first recommendation would be the video Alan Holtham made for Tormek. Alan made it around the time the DBS-22 was introduced. I have owned my DBS-22 for many years, but use it infrequently. Whenever I use it, I always watch Alan's video first to refresh my skill. Here is a link:

https://youtu.be/fSUa1iFUzkM?si=zF1taOfMlfBHES1V

Keep us posted.

Ken

Do yourself a favor, watch Alan's video. 

It would be helpful if you could post a photo of what you are asking about, the drill bit jig.  Post several of other aspects of your setup, etc.

Rick

[The se77 has a small lip that supposedly makes the blade square. But are we to rely on that?]

...snip...But my biggest problem is after all that time and effort I have an edge that is not square. Can you help me trouble shoot. The se77 has a small lip that supposedly makes the blade square. But are we to rely on that?

Welcome to the forum.  You've come to the right place. 

Put in the time to do some reading in the extensive history of posts, in this subforum, but also maybe in the General forum.  This has been discussed, repeatedly and extensively, so all the answers you might receive now have already been said/posted. 

There are others here with a lot more experience with the jig than me, but I'm going to express what I think I know. 

If you mean the supposed centering lines on the side of the casting (see image below), next to the adjusting screws, NO!  This is just my opinion, and I've stated it here before, while the casting are fairly "precision", they are still just that, castings.  And those marks are very broad, so are not really reliable for indicating centered position for grinding blades. They should be considered a general reference at best. 
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More importantly, there are several factors affecting squareness of the resulting bevel.  Differential pressure applied to one side or the of the blade during grinding is one.  Plane blades, being as wide as they are, are especially susceptible to pressure.  Clamping the blade in the jig against the inside edge, probably as described in the instructions is not particularly reliable (in part due to it being a casting...).  Squareness of the blade in the jig should be verified using a small precision square held against the front surface of the jig.   

The SE-77 is quite an improvement over the earlier version, due to addition of the adjusting screws.  I think the primary purpose is to allow for cambering the blade edge, but they serve well for adjusting the blade to achieve a square/perpendicular bevel.  It takes a lot of fiddling to get them set properly and that setting routine must be repeated for each plane blade put into the jig.   

Use of the black marker is extremely helpful in revealing where grinding is occuring and making small, frequent adjustments to work your way to what you want. 

Good luck, and please do take the time to ready what others have to say about all this, in the timeline of posts. 

Rick

[drilling]

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They are called self threading screws, are we supposed to install them with no pilot holes? I'm pretty stuck here.

If the self-tapping screws won't penetrate then you do have to drill pilot holes. It sounds like your drill bit is dull. Small drill bits dull easily. Buy a new one.

There is a difference between self-tapping/threading and self-drilling screws.  Self-drilling have a drill bit point and essentially drill the necessary pilot hole without the separate use of a drill.  They are limited in the thickness of sheet metal, though.  There are two types of self-tapping/threading screws, some have a blunt, non-drilling point, some have a sharp point that can penetrate soft materials like wood and some plastics.  The screws provided in the MB-100 kit are the blunt, non-self drilling type and require a pilot hole. 

However, one is not limited to the screws provided in the MB-100 kit.  Self-drilling screws likely are available, possibly in better hardware stores but certainly online, like However, one is not limited to the screws provided in the MB-100 kit.  Self-drilling screws likely are available, possibly in better hardware stores but certainly online, like McMaster-Carr and Fastenal.

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Self tapping/threading vs self-drilling screws.
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MB-100 screws.  Pilot holes required, per Tormek instructions. 
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If the self-tapping screws won't penetrate then you do have to drill pilot holes. It sounds like your drill bit is dull. Small drill bits dull easily. Buy a new one.

3/16" bradpoint bit,

Brad point bits are specifically for wood and are not for drilling steel. You will need a HSS twist drill. I have used them on aluminium but would never use them on steel.

Yup, I was in the process of responding when these came in.  Brad point drills are for wood and would dull quite quickly tried on metal.  There are special drills for sheet metal, but you don't really need one and I'm not sure they come small enough for what you are doing.  Regular HSS drills will work well enough if used properly.  A bona fide "center-drill" might actually be best, but with care to only run the centering point into the sheet metal, not the broad beveled flutes, followed by a regular drill if the centering point doesn't cut all the way through.  Center drill would be much stiffer and helps keep things from wandering more than standard drills.  Best to center-punch the locations, however, as even center-drills will wander, particularly if hand held or even on a drill press. 

600-900 might be too fast, at least for getting the holes started.  Good to use bona fide cutting oil, not just any lubricating oil, but better some oil than none.  For getting holes like this started, it might take a good bit of pressure so the cutting flutes can get a bite.  That is where the balance between speed and pressure is important, slow enough and hard enough so the flutes can dig in, but not too slow or too hard.  Having the workpiece securely held in place and the drill in a machine quill helps a lot, but a drill press (woodworking types) often can't go slow enough. 

Commercially available drill that might be thought to be good for sheet metal, but really isn't.  Notice how the tip of the left flute is already dull.  Center point is much too large.  This drill is actually about 5/8" dia.  Drills like this are likely hard to find small enough for what you are doing. 
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Sheet metal drill I found online.  Small center point, very low profile primary flutes, still sloping down and away, albeit, at a shallow angle.  I've never used a drill like this.
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Spot welding drill, but only available in larger sizes.
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A sheet metal drill the way my father would hand grind them and is essential the same as tthe spot welding drill above (very similar to the spot weld drill above). Notice the tiny bit of point on the outer corner of the left flute, helps when the drill breaks though, cutting cleanly rather than the flutes grabbing (right side is either dulled or just not ground high enough). Very effective, but this one is about 1/2" dia. and would be extremely difficult or impossible to hand grind at the size you need. 
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I use Tap Magic Cutting Fluid, which is available in small cans, but I didn't find them on the Tap Magic web site, just this type
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I'm a big fan of ER collet chucks, I have used them on quite a few projects as well as on my lathes and mill. There are a lot of different sizes available on eBay for very reasonable prices.

I agree completely.  I'm a big fan of collets in general, being most familiar with the "C" class, 5C and 3C.  I really like them for lathe work as there is not so much whirling mass of steel close to the workpiece.

Rick,

I left mine hexagonal. It seemed to work well, but I've not sharpened a lot of small bits.

How did you align the flutes?  Just keeping it about where it should be as you tightened the chuck?  I figured that would be tricky, maintaining both projection and flute alignment.  That is why I though it would work better to have the barrel of the pin vise round so it could be rotated and moved as unit for both projection and flute positioning.  But... I never did try it, so...   

I was a bit concerned about what all would be involved with trying to turn down the plastic, hex sleeve.  Taking it all off to expose the base metal barrel?  I figured I'd be doing that between centers on the lathe. 
But... I never did try it, so...

I think I'm going to like the ER8 collet/chuck set.  It goes a little bit larger (0.197") than the Starrett pin vise set (0.187") and I doubt I'll be trying to sharpen drills as small as 2mm (0.079"). I also have a Vevor MB-13 drill sharpener, which uses ER20 collets, down to 3mm and I've found it to be close to acceptable for small drills, although I still like the finish given by the Tormek much better. 

Rick,

I used your earlier idea, but with this pin vise:

How did that work?  I never actually tried it - never go around to turning down the hex handle to round. 

Rick

Why in the world would anyone use any wheel dry on a Tormek?  Completely eliminates one of the benefits of even having a Tormek.  As Ken mentioned, early on, some CBN wheels rusted when used in water.  I have two of the CBN wheels where the warranty would be voided if used in water.  I've been using one, in water with the Tormek ACC solution, a 180 grit, on my T8, for 5 or 6 years with not one speck of rust.  I just recently added an 80 grit CBN wheel, used in the same manner. 

Another reason I would never use any grinding wheel dry on a Tormek is the damage the grinding grit can do to the cast zinc Tormek jigs, in particular the DBS-22 Drill Bit Sharpening Jig.  I had the DBS set up on a slow speed bench grinder and an 8" dia., 80 grit CBN wheel.  I found out quickly that the grinding grit was getting in the sliding surfaces and causing wear.  Not doing that anymore and is why I got the same 80 grit CBN wheel in 250mm diameter for the T8 so I could have the fast metal removal, in water, without damaging the jigs. 

Rick:
As I feared, while the Pin Vice clamps and allows sufficient clearance at the grind wheel face. The back end of the Drill bit is not supported sufficiently to provide the required centricity for sharpening.
Essentially the drill bit requires total support in the same way the DBS-22 supports bits larger then 3mm.
So this means a clamp similar in nature to the DBS-22 drill bit clamp perhaps a simplified slip in sub assembly which will cradle the drill bit in its full length from 3t5 mm of the grinding wheel to the fullest length of the bit shank.
A Pin Vice or a collet only provides clamping and support at the forward end of the drill bit which becomes very apparent when you begin the sharpening process of the sub 3mm drill bits.
This is a bit disappointing however perhaps someone else will step forward with another suggestion to aid us all in the pursuit of Sub 3mm drill bit sharpening
Thanks for Listening

This is a very old thread, but I may have found a solution to the dilema courierdog presents.  I have just received an ER8 spring collet set that has collets from 2 to 5 mm internal diameter, in 0.5mm increments.  These collets are full ID their full length, which is a little over 14mm (~9/16").  This isn't real long, but it may be long enough to have enough bearing length over the flutes to hold the drills in good alignment without shifting.  I haven't had a chance to try them yet.  And the collet chuck shaft is longer than the length of the DBS-22 drill bit jig clamp/holder and is perfectly round its full length.  Should be perfect for holding and adjusting for drill bit projection and flute alignment.

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At some point, I'll make time to give them a try and will report on how it goes.  I still have my doubts as there is enough movement (slop) in the DBS-22 sliding platform and the drill bit holder/clamp that it may still not work well for small drill bits. 

Could someone post a link to the actual class video under discussion here, please?  I've looked at their YT web site and not found this.  The latest video I could find is the "Tormek Way" which I know is not it. 

Thanks,

Rick