Messages

Those tools are really cool!  Thanks for sharing.

Agreed, and fills the gap of less than 1/8" dia. that the DBS can't do. I hope to try making a holder/collet for doing up to 3/16" or 1/4" on it.  But...  I have yet to seriously try adapting the Starrett pin collets to the DBS drill holder for the smaller sizes, even 1/8". 

I see a substantial improvement in precision of the Meteor workings compared to the Tormek.  The DBS is quite excellent, much better than most other options in the price range (and lower) but there is a lack of rigidity and repeatability due to the suspension method (USB).  The alignment microscope of the Meteor is significantly better as well. 

Rick

Point angle, relief angle are directly indicated by graduated scales (red ellipses).  Point angles available are quite wide.  Clearance angles up to 20º.  There is a lever-actuated swivel function to put the drill into grinding position, with a positive stop.  It appears there may be options for this stop as it rotates on a shaft, but I haven't figured this out yet. 

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Three point geometries are possible, traditional 2-facet (trypical retail), 4-facet and web-thinned.  Pictured is a 1/8" drill, first as 2-facet and then as 4-facet.  The manual describes web-thinned as used only with the 2-facet point and only for the much smaller diameter drills because the webs make up a larger proportion of the overall point.  Oh, and it will do both Right and Left twist drills. 

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Shown are the 2- and 4- facet points.  Primary facets were done at 9º.  Secondary facets were done by changing the clearance angle to 23º.  I haven't seriously tried the split pointing, but what little playing with it I did, trying to figure it out, indicates it could be really sweet. 

Rick

I've recently come into a fairly unique, high-end, "micro" drill bit grinder.  Swiss-made, Meteor CH 1, for drills 0.008" to 0.125" (~0.2 to ~3.2 mm) diameter.  These appear to be quite rare.  I've only been able to find information on seemingly more recent or larger capacity (up to 6mm, 0.236") version2, Meteor KSB 3 and KSB 6.  Lathes UK does have limited information, but it is the most extensive that I've found.  Spare parts appear to be equally rare; I've found only on potential source and they have not responded to an inquiry. 

Gringing wheels are about 3" dia., some are carborundum and some are diamond.  Pictured is the diamond, think it is 400 grit.  I have found only two of the KSB models for sale on eBay, from $1200 - $1800.  The two units I have were given to me free.  Only one is complete and fully functional.  The other is in good shape, just not much moves, so full disassembly and cleaning may be necessary. 

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Drill bits are held in a small collet that indexes at 180º.  Indexing groove visible at lower right end of the collet assembly.  Alignment is similar to that of the Tormek DBS-22, but much higher magnification and apparent accuracy. 

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I've had to work with the alignment to get things to work well, which is not well described in the manual.  Manual I have is for the KSB 3 model but seems to be identical to the "CH 1" model I have.

Grinding of a facet.  Works extremely well, fast and easy.  Tight and precise with minimal movement. 

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Reached limit of photos for a single post, so more to follow. 

Rick

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This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC

Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?

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Ken

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If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.

Couple things. 

1) Honing angle that I saw in that video was 12º DPS rather than 10º.  However, I do not think that what the angle is, is as relevant as the differential between grinding and honing angles, per what follows. 
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2) I definitely agree with raising the honing angle for typical home use knives (which is all that I have), based on Vadim's other work regarding techniques for deburring steels of different hardness.  While Vadim's video was intended to show what is possible with standard Tormek equipment, it appears to also reflect what I assume is the Tormek method of using the same ange for honing.  The reference video appears to have been posted in 2019, which is AFTER the fourth edition of Vadim's deburring book where he discusses the benefits of using varying honing angles for different types of steels. 
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It was demonstrative that he was able to achieve 75 BESS by using the same angle.  I am curious what he could have demonstrated if he had used an angle more specific to the type of steel being sharpened Maybe he did without saying anything about it, so maybe it wasn't relevant, but it would have been informative for him to have mentioned it (unless he did at some point that I didn't see, as I didn't watch the video from start to finish).

Rick

I agree withRick about the importance of honing. I would also recommend the MB-100.

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Ken

Do you mean MB-102 (new model with FVB function) rather than the original MB-100 (without FVB)?

Rick

I agree with Ken, with a slight amplification.  Yes, focus on nailing the process, developing muscle memory, etc. for the grinding process.  But, I think he didn't go far enough to emphasize the importance of deburring.  You can get most excellent results with the standard stone as long as you do an effective and complete job of deburring.

I believe that is best done when the deburring operation is done using guided angle maintenance, rather than free-hand.  To this end, I think the first piece of additional equipment a beginner should get is the Frontal Vertical Base (FVB).  But...  rather than buying a single purpose "FVB", I think the updated Tormek Multi-Base (MB-102) that incorporates the vertical holes so that it functions as an FVB is the way to go. 

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Rick

Hopefully, with some time you'll find the site easier to navigate.  As far as where to post it, you are pretty close.  "General Tormek Questions" would be where I would put it.  One level higher than this subfolder ("Tips and Tricks...").  I know nothing about the 2000 so I won't try to help with your primary question.  Spend some time exploring the different topic specific subforums to get a feel for the types of things discussed in each.  You'll get the hang of it. 

As for picture sizes, given that most photos we take these days are high in pixel count, they are typically several MegaBytes in file size and LOTS of pixels.  For example, my phone take images with 3042 x 4032 pixels and are about 8 MB.  Many forums restrict the file size so as to not overload storage, etc.  I find it most convenient to reduce the pixel size from the native size to 640 x 480, which on this forum display large but do not spill over the width of the frame in which messages are displayed.  I use third-party utility programs to do that downsizing.  I have no idea how you take photos or what utilities you might have for reducing file size / pixel density, so if you are not familiar with this sort of thing, is there anyone you know that can assist you? 

This photo is 640x480 and 117 KB in file size.  Shown immediately below it has been "inserted" into the text and takes up about half of the window width on my display.  Further down, is the "thumbnail" as photos will be shown that have been uploaded but not "inserted".  If your photo is much larger, viewers may have to scroll over to see all of the content.

Rick

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Sharpening Supplies

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Noted Rich: TTS-100 on order. Cost of my board? Nil. Cost of a 3D printer? No contest.
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One does not have to buy and learn to operate a 3D printer to have 3D printed stuff.  There are companies that offer 3D printing services, such as Shapeways.  I used them for printing a small tool/accessory for holding bamboo on a milling machine for making bamboo fly rods.  I had a quantity made, but the price was the same per unit for 1 or 10. 

My original machined holddown.
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3D printed holddown.
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Wandering a bit off topic: I went with 3D printed (in steel) because the machining, as I had done with my original ones, was too complex and the CNC shop that I've used for other tools declined to give me a bid/price, saying it would be prohibitively expensive.  This was a couple years ago.  I have redesigned this tool and am in the process of making jigs to simplify the production process and think I'll be able to machine them myself.  The two on the right are the two pictured above. Those grouped on the left are in process - not completed/finished - still working on the jigs but the process will be greatly simplified and much faster.  And, I actually use my T8 for finish grinding on the the end facets (Posted on this back when working on this earlier, where I used the DBS-22 on a belt grinder.  Not doing that now, rather the side of diamond wheels for the flat grind, using the jig on the left). 

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Rick

Rick,
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Did you have success using the (eight inch diameter) 46 or 80 grit Norton 3X wheels (wet) or the (ten inch diameter) 46 grit wheel (also used wet) with the DBS-22? Granted, they are not as fast as a high speed dry grinder; however they do not produce loose grinding dust to ruin your jig.

Ken

Yes, I did have success with those grinding wheels, and I have you to thank for it.  You may recall, that I later shifted to the same sort of "traditional" grinding wheel, but at 10" diameter. I frequently mention these, both here but more often on the FB group about these wheels as very cheap but very effective options for those seeking faster metal removal for all manner of work on the Tormeks, so much so that some may regard me as a broken record. 

Rick

Rick,
You should sent your question to support (support@tormek.se).

One question I have is about the choice of grinding wheels. This seems like a good use for CBN wheels. Diamond and CBN wheels run cooler than conventional wheels. I mention CBN because they are available in 80 grit. As a general rule, coarser wheels run cooler than conventional wheels.

On the plus side for diamond wheels, they are built on steel frames. There are some CBN wheels with steel frames.

Ken

Tormek replied, but I cannot find it right now. Their reason for not using the DBS-22 on a bench grinder was a risk of "catching" on the wheel. Through using it on my Rikon low speed grinder with an 8" CBN wheel, I've not had any issues with catching, so, to me, that is not an issue. 

I have, however, discontinued use of the DBS on a bench grinder and will not use it on my Viel belt grinder either.  The problem is the grinding grit that gets into the sliding surfaces of the DBS.  There are two, one between the fixed platform and sliding plate, the other between the drill bit clamp and the sliding plate.  Zinc does not hold up well to it and while I did not see damage to the plastic runners, I'm sure it would happen with time. 

Haven't yet, but I think making a drill specific platform, I believe like Jan's, is the way to go for roughing drill bits on the 80 grit CBN on the bench grinder. 

Rick

I bought my T8 from Sharpening Supplies and was quite happy.  I believe I bought a few items from them afterward, but Advanced Machinery is where I've gone for accessories and parts recently. 

Tormeks are often stocked at retail woodworkers supply houses, such as Rockler and Woodcrafters.  The long knife jig might not be something that is stocked as frequently, but its work a look. 

Rick

Along with the fascination of precise instruments, we should sharpen in temperature controlled rooms and wear gloves to eliminate transferring body heat to our tools. 

Ken

(Just kidding. . .)

For a while, there was one here who it appeared to be close to it...

...
but I don't see the 'ease of use' for this distance preprogrammed into TormekCalc, am I missing this somewhere or are you using different software?
...

"T-USB" is the measurement directly to the wheel in TormekCalc (in the column under the wheel size)...
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TormekCalc is an amazingly detailed and excellent app, but I find it way more than I need and unless one spends the time to really figure out what is going on, way more difficult to use than I care to go through. 

There are other calculators where it is easier to find, although I could not in CB's Calcapp.  I use his older and possibly no longer available "Go Calc" app that shows USB to Wheel right on the main screen. 

Maybe CB can post an image of where to find it in an angle calculator that is much easier to use, such as Calcapp. 

Rick

I think you would be very well served to just take your time with the grinding wheels you have, gain some experience and practice, before leaping into more wheels and/or methods and accessories. 

I would even just stick with the standard honing wheel procedures until you get thoroughly comfortable with it all.  I believe that only then will you have a solid basis for what you may want to add to the mix.  It is vital to gain proficiency with the basis.  It is all to easy to get distracted with all the other stuff with the result that the fundamentals are overlooked.  None of that stuff is required to get excellently sharp edges. 

I think getting the MB-102 is a good one, in order to gain the FVB functionallity.  It will greatly enhance your honing experience and learning.  It would also be extremely helpful for using the Sun Tiger wheel in an edge-trailing mode, which is probably the better what to learn its use.  If you use it like the grinding wheel(s), there is the chance you will catch the edge and gouge the wheel and toss the knife. 

For angle setting, consider just using the distance from the USB to the wheel, rather than measuring the distance from the USB to the machine case.  Using the wheel to USB distance greatly simplifies angle setting. I got swept up into using the USB height and KG's angle setting software, for several years, hearing from some about the simplicity of just using the wheel to USB distance.  Once I seriously tried it, I've never done anything else. The main advance is the simplicity, but hidden in there is that it avoids all the intermediate parameters, which all contribute some level of errors and imprecision.  And while mentioning precision, experience has shown many of us that tight angle precision setting is not necessary, even though it "feels" right or better. 

As far as a tool for the angle setting process, I would recommend a mechanical dial caliper, rather than vernier.  I started with vernier tools in the 1960s, first with a slide rule and then with vernier calipers in my father's machine shop.  They are perfectly functional, but require attention to proper use, which is not nearly as critical as dial calipers. 

Photos below show two methods for tools used in setting the angle, stone to USB distance.  I use and angle setting app to determine what the distance should be.  Set my calipers for that distance and then use the calipers to set the distance setting tool.  Shown below are two, a woodworker's marking gauge (my standard) or a common adjustable square.  Part of the reason for this is that the width of most calipers barely reach the centerline of the USB, whereas the other tools easily do.  Also notice the rubber band stretched between the wheel axle and the USB, used as a reference for aligning the setting tool. 

Most of all, have fun and spend a lot of time practicing.

Rick