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[perfect]

My pleasure And that's okay, I think it's obvious I don't mind rambling, even if it only helps one person lol

I dunno, I still think a platform and a bit of practice might be more ideal than any pivoting jig... I just haven't gotten around to trying that method yet (I kinda get stuck on one thing once i get an idea in my head, and have to play it out till the end before I try the next approach)
But, yeah, if you're going to pivot a jig, i don't think you can ever really hope for consistency unless the pivot point itself is consistent. (In an ideal world, with unlimited tools and resources at my disposal,  the solution i would create for a perfect pivot point is way more involved than anything I'm actually going to go into for this  )

I do need to set up one of those laser lines though. I think the inconsistencies I had in my bevel angles were due to losing track of the LOC while just trying to eyeball it to a point on the body of the grinder

I agree... Herman's platform setup is probably the ideal route... sharpening on a platform is probably the closest thing to freehand sharpening, with the advantage of a guide.  Eventually, I might give it a spin.

I'm always torn between the "science" of sharpening... guides, precise angles, etc. vs. the "freedom" of freehand.  Adding the laser guide is a definite plus... at least there's some degree of accuracy (pun intended), although certainly not the same as an actual guide.  I'll still pursue an ideal jig setup... but most of my actual sharpening... I'll concentrate on improving my freehand results.

Okay, so.....the experiment kind of worked. Not quite as spectacularly or as groundbreaking as i might have hoped for, but there did seem to be benefits.

I need to continue practicing more, but the cut down collar and using the arc to align the tip with the 45° line as measured from the left side of the jig shaft DID  result in me being able to keep the entire length of the blade at (or very near) the LOC. Whereas setting the tip protrusion per Tormek's instructions and/or using the stock jig collar often left me unable to even come close.

Like I said, I need more practice to get it down consistently, but I managed to almost get an even bevel angle all along the length of that 7" butcher knife with the most extreme belly to tip transition (third one down in my first pic of all the knives). This was the one that fell the furthest below the LOC using the stock jig. So I remain optimistic, if still inexperienced lol
Bevel width changed a bit at the transition to the tip, but not as drastically as I've had with other methods, only what one would expect for the change in blade thickness as the tip approaches the spine.

I'll need to visit a thrift shop and find some more junk knives to keep practicing on,
And i think maybe round off the shoulder on my cut down collar just a bit

Thanks again for doing this.  (You and I may be the only ones interested...).

I learned, dealing with another guided sharpener, that most knives can be set based on the belly/tip area... and that the setting actually falls within a pretty similar distance between knives.  (Not surprising, since basically, all you want is the belly/tip area approximately the same distance as the "flat" portion from the pivot point(s)).  But, as you indicated... hard to find a "perfect" fit.  Still, this appears to me to be a better more consistent approach, than the difference the current collar creates in how it keeps the knife near the LOC.

Even the experiment where I didn't use the stop collar at all, and kept the knife at a laser line... I could tell as I tried a few knives that some knives needed a slightly different approach toward the tip... a slight lift, etc.... so doubt if any jig would be "perfect".  But hopefully, we're getting closer.

The experiment continues.... 

I hate when I make an assumption without actually trying to see if it works.  Assuming that the wider stone wouldn't fit... until I read in the thread grepper referenced, where Ken stated the shaft lengths were "about the same"... appears to be an incorrect assumption.

I recently acquired a T-4, so went to investigate.  Sure enough, the shaft on the T-4 extends out farther than on the larger model (apparently why the EzyLock cap is wider on the T-4).

So, I got my used 50mm wide stone (currently at about 218mm) and put it on the T-4.  (See attached picture... Photo 1).  From what I could tell, it might actually work.

There is enough shaft extending out, to screw on the EzyLock (Photos 2,3).  I used the metal version... not sure if enough extends out for the T-4 version to adequately work, and didn't want to risk breaking it.

The water trough also has enough width to accommodate the 50mm stone (Photos 4,5,6... another surprise).  I couldn't move it into place (stone is still to big of a diameter), but holding it up underneath, it cleared no problem.  In Photo 6, I hooked one side of the trough, and there appeared to be enough clearance width.

So, with palms sweating, I hit the "ON" button.  T-4 started right up... no issues that I could tell.

I can't answer if any issues would crop up... for example, is the machine: motor, housing, etc., robust enough to support the wider stone?  And, I'm not sure if the EzyLock that comes with the T-4 would work.  But, from this experiment anyway... no other mods appear to be needed to at least install the wider stone on the T-4... and can't say now that it "wouldn't work"... it appears possible.

New 'Blog' post... proofreaders welcome! 


Sharpening Your First Knife on the Tormek Using the SVM-45 Knife Jig

Somewhat unrelated to this but I think this is the right group to get the proper answer.
My SG250 is down to 230.  Would it work on a T4 once it is below 200 and I purchase a new wheel for the T8
Best Wishes
Tim

I don't believe so... the T-4 wheel is only 40mm wide (vs. 50mm of the T-8)... so it won't fit width wise... at least not without some alterations (longer shaft and different water container would be needed... even then, not sure if it's possible).

"Polish level" shouldn't be the only thing to look at... typically a harder medium will leave a crisper more refined edge (and retain more 'bite'), than a comparable finish level on a softer medium like leather.  You should be seeing a difference in how the knife/tool actually performs.  That, to me is the indicator of whether or not something should be used.  "Polish" becomes a byproduct.

In reality, the only real 'guide' needed is to properly set the knife in the jig, so that the belly/tip area is approximately the same distance as the flat portion from the pivot points.

Yes, this is exactly what that orange 45 degree line does. I don't know about you, but I can't "eyeball" that long of a distance at 2 angles

I agree... and perhaps didn't say it right.  You can accomplish the same thing just by measuring the distance, (like in the attached picture).  The 139mm is more what I was thinking isn't really a part of the process... it's just a convenient measurement... especially, since, as Ken pointed out... a lot of knives fall close to that.  But you can accomplish the same thing at any length.  (Probably still clear as mud haha).

I think the pudding will come out fine.

I'd like to see Tormek make a platform jig for knife sharpening.

I agree... and would add that a moveable "blade stop" could be added to the platform, that could be moved up behind the spine of the blade.  This would help control the blade... especially grinding into the bevel, it would prevent the blade from being "pushed back".

Kavik... thanks for doing all this.  Here's my inital thoughts...

It's funny... I was going to suggest cutting the collar off a jig... but didn't want to do it myself, (and don't like suggesting something I won't do).  Glad you did it.  I think just eliminating the sides of the collar (so that the jig could still "ride" on the USB, yet still pivot without significantly altering the pivot point), might get rid of some of the 'drawbacks'.  (BTW: from your earlier post about the lock screw getting in the way... the newer knife jig eliminated the lock screw completely).

Your comment that "after a couple of tries it just felt 'right'"... is what I referred to earlier... that pivoting a knife with the current jig, doesn't feel like a natural motion (and hinders the ability to maintain the LOC).

I think the template is a good reference... but want to point out that it's not really a part of the setup.  It does combine it with Ken's Kenjig setup and purpose though.  In reality, the only real 'guide' needed is to properly set the knife in the jig, so that the belly/tip area is approximately the same distance as the flat portion from the pivot points.  But the template is a good way to do that, and gives a "standard" to work from. (Hope that makes sense).

All in all, I think your testing was well thought out... and seems to validate what I'm thinking.  Hopefully your actual testing will further validate it.  Interested to hear what others have to say.  Thanks again!

You're welcome... hope it helped.

I'm sorry I made a mistake in naming the wheel I'm interested in. It is the Sun Tiger not Sun King wheel. It is produced by the Matsumaga company. I have heard that older Tormek machines were equipped with this wheel.

Pretty sure it's the same wheel.  Here's a bit of info I found...

Japanese Water Stone Wheel Sun Tiger Grain Size 4000
Improve your Tormek with these premier Japanese water stone wheels, made by Matsunaga (Brands: King and Sun Tiger) With the 4000 grain size you achieve a mirror polished edge. Specially recommended for those who sharpen a lot of knives and want a perfectly sharp edge without using a leather strip.

Either way, if it's a 4K wheel... it's a polish/finishing wheel... not a sharpening wheel.  (A replacement for the stock wheel, would be the 800g Japanese Waterstone version).

I have the chance to pick up a 4000 grit  Sun King wheel. I have no problem with the wheel that came with my used Tormek T7. I'm just wondering if it would be an upgrade to switch to the Sun King wheel. Thanks.

The 4K King wheel is more of a polishing wheel.  It could be used in addition to the stock wheel... to create a finer, more polished and refined edge... but it's not a replacement for the stock wheel... (it would be more of an alternative for the leather honing wheel).

So, for example, if all your knives/tools were sharpened with the stock wheel, you could then install the King 4K wheel and maintain the edges with it.

Honestly, I still don't have enough experience to make a good test subject myself yet

Can you test that theory by just threading your stock collar on backwards?

Actually, you might make a better test subject... no preconceived ideas. 

Can't really thread it backwards... the internal stop is at the other end of the collar.

I did make a comparison both with and without the collar... using a reference line on the stone as a guide...



... in the top row, you can see the '0' on the knife jig stays pretty much on top of the USB.  But with the stop collar, it pulls it well below the line.  So if the width of the collar was reduced... this factor would be nearly eliminated.

Without the collar, you actually can still use the jig to maintain the angle... as long as you keep the blade at the same reference point/line.  (Sort of a "guided freehand").

Obviously, some of this depends on the knife length.  Longer kitchen knives, knives without much 'belly' etc. won't be influenced as much.  But I tend to sharpen more EDC/pocket knives, small hunting/camping knives, etc. where this is seen more.

Very interesting, though it would require creating an entire collar from scratch, threads and all. Quite a bit more complex than my original thought of having different pieces to slap on abov the existing collar, hmmm.....

I wonder if the width on the original had anything to do with helping inexperienced users keep the jig from pivoting unintentionally when working along the flat of the blade?

Maybe substitute the collar for something smaller in diameter... just to see if you notice the difference?  I'm not sure the radius of a substitute would be that critical... especially if the collar wasn't much bigger than the jig part it would be screwed onto. 

(I'll see if I can find something and test the actual Tormek jig).

CB,

First, let me compliment you on your interesting links (bottom of your last post). I especially enjoyed the interview with Terry, the guy who has sharpened two to three thousand knives a year on a Tormek he purchased used in 2002. That's experience!

.....

I feel funny defending the Anglemaster200. If you ever used its predecessor, the Anglemaster 100, you would think the 200 was much improved. The 200 is a useful tool, however, I rarely use it. I use the kenjig or variations of it most of the time. I am quite sure a toolmaker could make a more accurate tool. I am just as certain that such a tool would cost as much as a second Tormek. When combined with the Anglemaster, the substitute target I posted offers a simple, low cost reliable solution.

....

Thanks for the compliment.  Just wanted to add, don't feel like you need to "defend" the AngleMaster... the purpose of this thread isn't to say that something is "bad"... just wondering if certain aspects could be improved... and seeing what ideas others have.

BTW, have a picture of the AngleMaster 100?  Surprisingly, can't find one on the net.  (Gotta be a first).