Rusty Main Shaft

[Kwakazaki]

Hello,

Not sure when I purchased my Tormek 2000, but it was over 10years ago and I'm still reeling from the $450 cost!  Don't get me wrong, it's a great tool and has performed well, but for what it is, an electric motor, grinding wheel and frame, it's darn  expensive.

This evening I had to turn a taper tap into a plug, because of a blind hole, and found the same as suggested elsewhere  in this thread..... Tormek wasn't running smooth, binding up, and when I went to remove the grinding wheel, the 3/4" nut just turned off. Really badly rusted, half the side of the nut just flaked away.

The bit I don't understand here is that nobody seems to be challenging Tormek about their assertion that the new stainless steel shafts are an upgrade!    Really?

This is to fix a serious design flaw. The ONLY way to justify the initial cost is that it's a "once in a lifetime" purchase. And as such it can't have this type of design flaw. In my view, they should be replacing these shafts for free for owners like us.

Disgruntled... 

[grepper]

Hi Kwakazaki, welcome to the forum!

I some ways I'm sympathetic with your opinion, especially considering a known wet working environment where it would seem obvious that rust would be a problem.  Could it have been better designed from the start?  Sure!

That stated, I suppose there is another point of view too.  Evil rust is always a well known, expected issue with tools.  I even built an electrolysis tank to give rusty tools a second chance at life.  Considering the obvious possibility of rust, the periodic maintenance of removing the wheel and applying some grease would probably have prevented the problem.  You are not alone however, and the issue has been discussed here before.  This thread has 6,000+ views!

All machinery is subject to environmental degradation and wear.  Saw blades dull, but could have been diamond coated to begin with.  Bushing wear and suffer runout, but could have been high quality, longer lasting bearings from the start.

Cars are a pretty good example.  Are they expensive?  Yup.  Do they wear out, require maintenance, and despite their high cost suffer the inevitable fate of becoming rusty hulks not worth repairing?  Yup.  Is there a huge aftermarket industry producing replacement parts and endless "upgrades"?  Indeed there is.

One thing I have learned is that less expensive machines generally have a much lower MTBF, and in the long run operational cost may exceed that of more expensive, higher quality tools because either the whole machine turns to junk and must be replaced, or parts have short lifetimes and constant replacement must be considered.  With any machine there is always some sort of operational cost even if from nothing other than expendables like blades, tires or bearings, etc.

Maybe it might make you happier if you consider that what you paid for was a machine that provided ten years of reliable service with apparently little or no maintenance!  After all, only a person endowed with above average intelligence would make such an erudite decision so many years ago. 

[Elden]

Ken, welcome to the forum.
   The 2000 was made before the stainless shaft, I believe. Mark hit the nail on the head. The car analogy was going through my mind before I read his reply. We give much more money for a vehicle, yet we do not think it strange to add gasoline to the tank, check and change the oil, replace the tires, or how many other maintenance procedures. In this day of throwaway wives (or even do not get married), the maintenance of the family fire of devotion is becoming less heard of.  I can, personally, say it is well worth it!
   The earlier Tormeks, likewise, were worth the maintenance that they required. I do believe, corporate Tormek could have made the necessity of the shaft, wheel maintenance of the non stainless shaft, better known.
   The stainless shaft is a definite upgrade. The rusted shaft syndrome is on the pre stainless shaft.
   If your wheel is stuck, use it until the wheel has to be replaced. Mine is rusted on, cracked, and under 200mm. It is an old square frame model that was rusted solid before I bought it. It still works just fine. If I had not tried to force the grinding wheel off, it would not be cracked and would have had a longer useful life than it will have as a result of the crack.

[Rob]

+1....I think Mark's comments are balanced and reasonable although I too have some sympathy with the "expensive" viewpoint.  The bed fellow of expensive is often innovation and I think it's fair to say that Tormek have created a fair few patented jigs in their time and with the new SVD 186 clearly are still doing so.

So, try to put that high price "sting" behind you, share your thoughts here and you'll be feeling better before you can say "if only I had 450 bucks" :-)

[Ken S]

I, too am sympathetic. I also agree with Grepper, Elden and Rob.

I think it is important to remember that the present EZYlock stainless steel shaft is not just a like for like replacement shaft in stainless steel. If it was just that, in my opinion, it would still be an upgrade.

However, the new shaft also incorporates the new EZYlock left hand thread feature. I think the EZYlock is at least as significant an improvement as being made with stainless steel. Changing grinding wheels is now very simple. I even remove my grinding wheel after each session to dry off and clean the shaft and inside of the Tormek.

I upgraded the shaft of my original T7 to the EZYlock. The original shaft was stainless and like new. At the time, The new shaft struck me as a lot of well engineered and machined stainless for $66US.

I have posted my low tech idea of placing a piece of Scotch tape on top of the Tormek with an arrow going away with the grinding wheel on the right. This indicates the direction to push the grinding wheel to loosen. Once you do this, the EZYlock is a real joy.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

The bit I don't understand here is that nobody seems to be challenging Tormek about their assertion that the new stainless steel shafts are an upgrade!    Really?

I believe the "upgrade" refers to the EzyLock feature.

This is to fix a serious design flaw. The ONLY way to justify the initial cost is that it's a "once in a lifetime" purchase.

I agree completely. I was rather upset by the fact that my main shaft had rusted to the point of ruining the expensive grindstone. I should have maintained it better. On the other hand, I don't believe Tormek has ever admitted to a flawed design. They simply refer to their "fixes" as upgrades and innovations.

In the end, the cost of anything is justified only by the fact that it's what people are willing to pay.

[jeffs55]

Through my lifes journey and I am now 60 years old, I have broken a lot of things and worn out more than that. I have had cause to have certain items repaired or replaced. Through it all, I have had more firearm and firearms related companies come through for me than any other. Smith and Wesson refinished a nickel plated revolver for me at NO charge when I BROKE a pin that seated into one side of the frame. Lyman replaced some bullet molds when I complained the alignment pins had gone awry. Ruger swapped out some rifle magazines when I said they jammed. In another area, New Balance sent me some new shoes when a pair I had stored in my home, in a closet apparently dry rotted! Yes, I had them stored for up to 10 years but likely less and them pulled them out to wear. The soles literally fell apart. I returned them to the manufacturer and said "why did my shoes do this"? They of course had no comment but sent me a new pair. All companies reserve the right to make improvements and/ or modifications to their products. It is unfortunate that Tormek did not foresee the likelihood of the stones structure creating a capillary type action and wetting the drive shaft and rusting it. Strange that anyone would not see that though when you know the stone soaks up water. I have a couple of machines that I haven't removed the stones from in years and am now afraid to try! IF, I get up the nerve and they are not rusted/fused to the drive shaft; I am going to wrap the threads in plumbers tape aka Teflon tape in an effort to prevent seizure.

[Stickan]

Hi,

If there are any problems with a Tormek product I really hope that the user will contact support@tormek.se for help.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Ken S]

What I generally do not read in the various posts about rusted shafts is the poster noting that he had followed Tormek's recommended procedure of removing the grindstone and shaft annually to clean and regrease the bushings. Or that the poster and fastidiously emptied the water trough between sessions. The handbook is definite about the annual cleaning and regreasing. The handbook recommends regular changing the water. It should be more definite.

If I notice the start of rust on my tools, I try to remove it promptly and wipe it with an oily rag. I certainly would not ignore a rusty Tormek shaft. With regular maintenance, a frozon rusty shaft should be rare.

If an automobile engine fails within the 36,000 mile warranty, I would expect the dealer to insist upon examining the oil change records before installing a new engine.

I agree with Stig that contacting Tormek directly is a preferable way to handle repair problems. I do not believe that any company would be comfortable making unusual service commitments above and beyond its stated warranty on a world wide forum.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

What I generally do not read in the various posts about rusted shafts is the poster noting that he had followed Tormek's recommended procedure of removing the grindstone and shaft annually to clean and regrease the bushings. Or that the poster and fastidiously emptied the water trough between sessions.

When I started this thread I specifically stated that I had failed at both these basic maintenance chores.

On the other hand, Jeff Farris stated that even with such care, it is difficult to keep the old steel main shaft from rusting.

By the way, following up on Jeff55's post, I noticed recently that some plumbing fixture manufacturers will replace stuff for free. Price-Pfister, for example sent me all of the parts I needed to rebuild a shower valve installed in 1979, including the adapter and all new trim pieces. At least one other manufacturer does the same.

[jeffs55]

[quote
By the way, following up on Jeff55's post, I noticed recently that some plumbing fixture manufacturers will replace stuff for free. Price-Pfister, for example sent me all of the parts I needed to rebuild a shower valve installed in 1979, including the adapter and all new trim pieces. At least one other manufacturer does the same.
[/quote]
Delta does the same thing. I had a particular model that ate washers. There was a leak every few months. All I had to do was call Delta and give them the model number and they sent a complete washer set. Now somewhere somehow some bean counter has determined that they can send replacement parts to THE FEW that call for them forever rather than make a superb product that will never need service. Stainless steel was used in firearms before the Tormek was invented. I do not know if Torgny knew what stainless steel was and what its advantages would be. We all know that even so called stainless will rust. Albeit a lot slower than ordinary ferrous steel. The only care that I take with my stones is to empty the water trough without fail. I can honestly say that I have never failed to empty the water trough.

[Herman Trivilino]

Now somewhere somehow some bean counter has determined that they can send replacement parts to THE FEW that call for them forever rather than make a superb product that will never need service.

I believe it's a marketing strategy. People are more likely to buy the brand after having received that kind of excellent customer service. They figure that if they buy something and it breaks, they can count on getting that same service again.

I don't believe that anyone anywhere has every made a faucet that never requires maintenance.

The only care that I take with my stones is to empty the water trough without fail. I can honestly say that I have never failed to empty the water trough.

It's also good practice to lube the bearings. If for no reason other than to keep the machine running smoothly and reduce wear on the bearings.

[Stickan]

Hi,
We always help the customers with their problems. However, if a stone cracks after 10-20 years the stone has been used for a very long time and are most often in need for a replacement so we usually work out a good solution for the user.

But as I wrote earlier, its better to contact support first as it will take few days to get it sorted. I try to follow the forum on a daily basis but when traveling I can be on the road for 2-3 weeks or we might have vacation. The support is checked on a daily basis and will be the fastest way to help the user.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Ken S]

Stig makes a good point. I would not expect Tormek or any company to publicly make commitments on a global forum offering services above and beyond its already generous warranty provisions. However, that does not mean that through support Tormek will not consider other options on a private case by case basis. This really needs to be done directly between the Tormek user and Tormek support.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Stig makes a good point. I would not expect Tormek or any company to publicly make commitments on a global forum offering services above and beyond its already generous warranty provisions. However, that does not mean that through support Tormek will not consider other options on a private case by case basis.

Good point, Ken. Companies like Moen, Delta, and Price-Pfister follow that same model. They don't advertise free parts for life, but if you call and ask they will oblige.

Perhaps cultural differences are a factor here, too. Americans and Scandinavians may have different marketing expectations, practices, and communications protocols. And then there is the corporate culture of Tormek itself to consider. For example, they produce improvements but tend to shy away from discussions of the shortcomings that led to them.

As I said before, the bottom line is that a product is worth what customers are willing to pay for it. Good customer service is essential to any marketing scheme.