Rusty Main Shaft

[Ken S]

I believe we should expand our concept of customer service to include three catagories: Repair; Support; and Innovation.

I consider repair to be the prime catagory. The top priority here is whether repair (parts) are available. Using a ten year old product as an example, if parts are not available, the rest of customer service is a moot point. With Tormek, parts are readily available. In my opinion, the cost of repair parts, while an issue, is secondary to availibility. (I will cover a related topic in innovation). In fairness to Tormek, no one has mentioned extraordinary free service from any of Tormek's competitors

In the support catagory, if we include tech support, forums, manuals and videos, I believe Tormek is the head of the class. One former competitor produced an excellent hour long video featuring a well known woodworking expert and teacher. other companies have produced good videos. I know of at least two companies with very mediocre manuals. I know of one other company forum which has not seemed to get off the ground.

I think Tormek has produced some very good videos. I also wish Tormek would expand their video line.

In the innovation catagory, Tormek seems like the only contestant. I think this is a sad commentary on the industry. The clones seem like older model Tormeks with less attention to quality.

In the innovation catagory and related to the ten year old Tormek with the rust problem: Tormek no longer manufactures or sells the shaft which rusted. I give Tormek a lot of credit for only selling the upgrade. The rust problem stopped with the T7. Of course there are plenty of older Supergrinds with rusty shafts. Fortunately for those Tormek owners, Tormek is committed to the design philosophy of making improvements compatible with older models.fn

Ken

[Ken S]

Over the years I have observed several posts regarding rusty shafts. I do not doubt that this has been a problem. I would guess the problem goes back to the earliest Tormek models (with regular steel shafts) and continued to roughly 2007 with the introduction of the T7 and stainless shaft.

What I do not have is a sense of how extensive these rust problems are. When I was demonstrating the Tormek at the Hartville show in November, several veteran Tormek owners stopped by. All were positive about their Tormeks, often more than fifteen years old, and none was interested in "upgrading" to a new model. I was somewhat surprised that none of them were even interested in a new stainless steel EZYlock shaft. They said their shafts were not rusted. Therefore, my question is:

What percent of older Tormeks are actually distressed by rusted shafts requiring major work to separate the shaft and the grinding wheel? I hope more of you with older Tormeks will post your experience with your shaft. (This might be an excellent opportunity for some of you who have been silently observing for many years to post.)

Please do.

Ken

[Elden]

   Mark mine down as one. Bought used off EBay. It was frozen solid when I got it. Cracked the grinding wheel trying to remove it. Still am using it.
   I have posted before, in my opinion, IF YOU HAVE A RUST BONDED WHEEL YOU CAN NOT GET OFF, LEAVE IT ALONE! Keep it dry when not using it, hopefully it will not crack the wheel. The wheel, while usable when cracked, will wear out faster than if it is not cracked.

[Ken S]

Elden,

For the benefit of our newer members, if you knew what you know now, would you purchase that same Tormek with the frozoen shaft?

Ken

[RichColvin]

Ken,

I purchased my Tormek T-2000 about 15 years ago.  It has the steel shaft, and the inner washer was indeed rusted.  I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was too lazy and didn't empty the water tray after each use (that way I didn't have to wait to get the wheel re-saturated).

I didn't really find the "issue" until I went replace the original grinding wheel late last year (hence all the other posts about a T-47 to use old wheels ...).

But, I just took to a grinder that has a wire brush wheel, cleaned it and the shaft up, put everything back together (with a little lubricant).

I'm planning to add a Japanese stone, so I'll probably opt for a new shaft at that time.  I do believe the reversal of the tightening nut will make the grinding wheel more secure.

Rich

[Ken S]

Very good post, Rich.

My interest is solving the problem rather than assigning blame. In your case, especially with adding a second grinding wheel, the obvious solution is an EZYlock shaft. In addition to holding the grinding wheel securely, releasing the grinding wheel is a snap. In my experience placing a directional arrow is a great help. Do not be tempted to use Channelock pliers!

In addition to solving the rust problem, the EZYlock shaft is a genuine improvement.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

The stone was separated from the rusty shaft, before I obtained mine.  The stone was chipped in two places and he bought a replacement, before dispersing his shop, so his heirs/wife, didn't have to, without knowing values.

While leaving water in the tray, with it up on the stone, I think will cause problems, from what I have seen, two other factors can and do cause issues:
High humidity
Life getting in the way.

High humidity can be something that one has to spend thousands of dollars to fix (if they can).  As an example a late neighbor would have a bit of water in her basement, when we had periods of heavy rain.  Not from the rain, but the ground saturation, caused an underground spring, to fill up and push though other cracks, one under her house.
Life getting in the way can be lots of things.  The cancer the original owner of my Tormek had that kept him out of the shop.  Kids and all the things that change when you have them.   Military service (are you going to tell them no, you have to service your Tormek?).
Extra grease, and doing it more often can help in the first.  Not much can happen when life throws changes your way.

[Ken S]

Good points, SADW.

Life can certainly get in the way, and high humidity is certainly a problem for any shop.

We cannot prevent some things. Therefore, I believe it is increasingly important to do what we can when and where we can. I hope by now that regular forum readers are dumping the water tray after sharpening sessions. The recommended annual cleaning and regreasing of the shaft and bushings is very important, important enough to consider doing it twice a year or quarterly if the shaft is not stainless.

Running a dehumidifier in a basement shop is essential. Raising the dehumidifier a foot or two makes it more efficient. Positioning it so that it the water can run through a hose into a floor drain will help prevent memory lapses.

Life is easier with an EZYlock shaft.

Ken

[Elden]

Elden,

For the benefit of our newer members, if you knew what you know now, would you purchase that same Tormek with the frozoen shaft?

Ken

   NO, I would not buy one with a frozen shaft. If I could back the clock up and start over knowing what I know now, without hesitation I would buy a new T7. Yes, it is a major expense. Fixing up a old unit is, as well. One could come out ahead with an old frozen up unit, IF ALL defects are known, repair expense is taken into account, and the unit is dirt cheap or free. Normally, first time potential buyers do not know the things to look for that spell trouble. I surely did not.
   There have been other posts about buying used. If you do, here are a few things to look for and to do.

1  Glance it over, is the frame rusted? Condition of paint at the base?
2  Look at the grinding wheel. What is its diameter and condition?
3  Remove the grinding wheel. If you are using EBay, request a picture of the grinding wheel removed and one of the drive shaft where the wheel sits.
4  Is the honing wheel in good condition?
5  Is the drive wheel in good condition? Mine has crack lines in it, but still works fine. Someday it may have to be replaced.
6  If it is an older model, does it have the mount to allow the universal support bar to be used horizontally?
7  Make sure the water trough is not cracked.
8  Turn the unit on. It should start without having to spin it. How is the noise level? It should be quiet. Observe the drive shaft to make sure it is not bent. The grinding wheel should be relatively concentric. The truing tool will help this situation.
9  What jigs does it have? The truing tool and the stone grader are must have items.

   Do you get the sense that I am discouraging buying a used unit without seeing it in person? If so, you are correct in that assumption.
To go further, for a first unit purchase, I would advise buying a new unit.

[Ken S]

Well stated, Elden. Wise words from an honest Tormeker. I hope all prospective Tormek buyers read your post before doing anything.

Ken

[Ken S]

I totally agree with Elden. However, for the benefit of those who truly believe the cost of a new Tormek is beyond their means:

1) Limit your search to a T7 or a T4. The T7 was introduced in 2007, and comes with a stainless steel shaft. Those made before 2010 do not have the EZYlock feature, however, having stainless shafts, they do not have the rust problem. The T4 is a fine product, and corrected the problems inherent with the T3. Do not be tempted by a T3.

2) Know the new market. Presently, a new T7 with full ten year warranty costs $600, usually with free shipping. A new T4 can be had with full seven year warranty for $399, again with free shipping. Used Tormeks are almost always overpriced. If the seller is the original owner, he will remember what his new cost was, and thinks of a new T7 as going for $665. Ne may or may not be aware of all the changes made over the years, including improvements to the jigs. If the seller bought the unit with the intention of reselling at a profit, he may have overpaid. You do not want to subsidize his overpayment.

3) Know the value and value detractors of a used unit. The big detractor is probably not having a warranty. While Tormeks are rugged machines and repairs are rare, replacing a motor can be very expensive. Even replacing a cracked drive wheel (as noted by Elden) is a fifty dollar part. I would consider no warranty as at least a hundred dollar value detractor.

Not having an EZYlock shaft knocks around seventy dollars off. Not having a micro adjust universal support bar knocks another fifty dollars. If the unit does not come with the new TT-50 truing tool, knock off another sixty if it has a usable diamond cluster or close to a hundred if it does not. Older "free included jigs" may or may not be the current models. Anyone who buys included jigs with the hope of using them at some time in the future will probably find they have been updated and are not such a bargain.

Elden is quite correct in warning new users that the best course is a new unit. The situation may be slightly different for experienced eyes open users. If I saw a reasonable looking T7 in the $200 to $240 price range, I would be sorely tempted to purchase it for either my SB or SJ grinding wheel. I would be very surprised if I saw such a unit priced that way. A Tormek is a long time investment. Expect to see regular upgrades; technology marches on. (Thank goodness!) Give yourself the best advantage when you are starting out; buy a new warrantied Tormek from an authorized dealer who charges only list price and includes shipping.

Ken

[jeffs55]

If I saw Tormek T7s in the up to $240 range, I believe that I would buy them all and resell them. On the other hand, I would keep as many as there are different stones and have dedicated machines...................and sell the rest.  As you said, that is not going to happen. The fastest reload is a second gun and the fastest change of grind is a second machine.

[Ken S]

Jeff,

Your comment gave me a good laugh. I totally agree. Sadly, in that price range I don't think there is any need to practice our wallet quick draw or clear off any bench space.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

If I saw Tormek T7s in the up to $240 range, I believe that I would buy them all and resell them. On the other hand, I would keep as many as there are different stones and have dedicated machines...................and sell the rest.  As you said, that is not going to happen. The fastest reload is a second gun and the fastest change of grind is a second machine.

It only took my about 8 years of watching to find my 2000 under that price range.  Then I asked here about refinishing it, before a simple cleaning, revealed what I thought was going to be chipped paint, was just some glue and sawdust it picked up on the bench (lucky).

[Ken S]

I think the moral  of this long topic is not to purchase a wet grinder which does not have a stainless steel shaft, or at least to add in the cost of a replacement stainless steel shaft to the total projected cost.

Ken