a note to Steve (and the forum)

[Ken S]

Steve,

Leonard Lee's Sharpening book has a very informative chapter on chisels, both Western and Japanese.

IMHO, it should be part of a sharpener's reference library.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Ken,
Do you have Ron Hock's book, "the Prefect Edge" ? If you do, how do they compare? Thanks for the chisel post. I was thimking about a Matsumura five eights.
Steve

[Jeff Farris]

I like Ken's idea of buying one chisel in several different styles to find the one that fits your shop best. Personally, I might lean toward a 3/4, rather than a 1/2, but that's just me. My problem is, I like them all. 

I have a set of Stanley #40s that I've had since they discontinued them in the early 1980s. They used to be the standard for shop classes everywhere. Nice long blades, with a comfortable handle and striking plate that doesn't become uncomfortable in your palm even if you smack them with a hammer now and then. I have a set of Ulmia chisels I've had since a few years before I was given the #40s. They're old friends. I have a handful of mismatched Japanese chisels, some nice, some cheap. I never became enamored enough with them to buy a whole set, but I have one Japanese paring chisel that I consider one of my finest hand tools. And a couple years ago my wife gave me a set of Lie-Nielsen's for Christmas -- they're really pretty in their tool roll. Maybe someday I'll break down and cut something with them. 

[ionut]

I agree with Ken, that thread became more like a sausage...

Steve, you are putting me in a not very comfortable situation with that question but I will be truthful and what I am saying is just related to my own experience and preference and nothing to do with the manufacturers. The steel in Lie-Nielsens I have is A2 the tools are very well made, they are really fine tools but... I like more the Japanese chisels.
The handles on the Lie-Nielsen ones are good but I would prefer a bit larger handles probably because I got used with them. I think they followed an old Stanley line of chisels.

[Ken S]

Sorry, guys, but the chisel in my dream was definitely a half inch.  Just kidding.....What I meant to say was a chisel size which is the one you grab most of the time.  1/2, 5/8, 3/4 all are fine.

Thanks, Jeff.  I like the idea, too.  I wish it was original.  Whoever's idea it was originally, I think it is worth passing along.

Steve, I like Ron Hock's book.  I have both in my library, and would recommend both to you.  They complement each other.  I'm a book buff, and recently, a DVD and you tube fan, also.  

My Japanese fishtail chisel is a Matsumura.  It's very nicely made; I would not hesitate to buy more.  I enjoy reading the descriptions of the blacksmiths in The Japan Woodworker catalog.  By comparison, western toolmakers seem boring and conventional.  Go to work, make a good product, go home.

Jeff, your term "old friends" describes my feeling for many of my tools.  I started with the 5/16" size Lie-Nielsen chisel because I thought is would work well with my grandfather's Stanleys.  It does, and I suspect I will probably eventually add a full set.  They are even nice outside of the leather wrap.

One design feature I appreciate in the Lie-Nielsen chisels is that all the bevel edge chisels from 1/8 to 3/4 use the same size handle.  The same handle work with all but the largest mortise chisels as well.  They also sell long handles (interchangeable) for paring.

Steve, please keep us posted on your chisel experiences.

Jeff, any wife who gives her husband chisels for Christmas was well chosen!

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Ken,
What I can tell you is that Jeff was right, the blade was in the jig square, but apparently the steel was slightly tapered such that the bevel was not reading square to the stone, if that makes sense.
Interestingly enough, I believe the Japanese steel is actually Damascus steel which came from Damascus, Syria and became popular for making swords during the Crusades and reported by Aristotle as being in use as early as 400BC.
I think I'll buy a Japanese chisel and a Lie-Neilsen chisel and decide which I prefer.
Then I can tell my wife and kids what to get me for my birthday. I'm going to order Leonard Lees' book. Thanks, as always, Jeff and Ionut for your helpful input.
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

When you are comparing the Japanese and Lie-Nielsen chisels, choose carefully.  Chances are that whichever you choose will someday be passed on to your children and grandchildren.  Tools, both good and not so good, can stick around for a long time.

Perhaps someone else can post good sites for learning more about the Japanese chisels.  The lie-nielsen website has some excellent instructional you tubes, both about usage and sharpening.  The sharpening technique shown is very solid.  Do keep in mind that the instructor travels quite a bit.  The Tormek, while a delight at home, might be like the traveling anvil salesman in The Music Man.

At the same time I ordered my chisel from Lie-Nielsen, I also ordered an extra long handle.  The longer handles are designed for paring.  Using both handles is shown in the L-N you tubes. I would only order one long handle, as the chisels generally use the same size handles.

When choosing your chisels, pay special attention to what your hands say.  Some tools just fit well in your hands.  Some don't.  I would rather have a chisel with less than stellar steel which felt like an extension of my hands than a piece of superb steel which felt clunky.

Choose slowly.

Ken

[Ken S]

Ionut,

We were posting at the same time last night.  I believe you are sharing the most valuable knowledge we have, personal knowledge.  Book learning is easily acquired.  Listening to what our hands tell us is more difficult, and more precious.

Ken

[ionut]

Hi Ken,

I didn't notice that.
If you are referring to my comfort level in my previous post the things are staying somehow like this, as you probably noticed I am not a diplomatic or politically correct person. I think the politically correctness is the biggest lie ever invented and that is why I am tempted to throw the truth green in the face as I am able to take it myself as well, whether it is about Tormek, chisels or anything else. Japanese chisels and Lie-Nielsen chisels are premium chisel in my opinion, you can't go wrong with any, it happens that I prefer the Japanese ones but I am not an authority in woodworking or tools, so in this particular case Steve should make his mind, there are many things to like or to not like at this tools and he will find out using them. Your earlier suggestion is perfect and as I said in a previous post I have got first two Japanese ones and used them and not long after I started to complete my collection in small steps as neither of them are cheap. There are other things about them that I didn't talk before that may influence someone's actions, for example the machining of the Lie-Nielsen ones is close to perfect, parallel sides, parallel faces, narrow vertical sides, you can almost use any edge as a reference, the Japanese ones are different, as most of them they are made by hand, they may not have faces and sides at the same grade of precision, and this may be important for some users.
I think the best way is to get one of each and try them and when the decision has been made, forget about them and do some real work otherwise one will end comparing the tools all his life and forgeting about what these tools are supposed to do.

Ionut

[Ken S]

I agree, Ionut.  Steve, the ball is in your court.  Enjoy.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Hey you two,
Nice take on the two types of chisels, Ionut by the way. Is it fair to say that lie-Neilsen chisels are predominately A-2, whereas the Japanese chisels are predominately Damascus type, in other words more leaning towards O-1? Seems like it should be easier to sharpen the Japanese chisels, except they're hand forged. I expect I'll find all this out in this lifetime and the I will report back.
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

I would suggest ignoring the kind of steel in the chisels, as well as the cultural origins.  See them just as two tools.  Use them, sharpen them, use them some more and keep sharpening.  Your hands will direct you to which you prefer.  Have fun...there are worse things than using two fine tools.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Amen, Brother.
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

The following dissertation comes from the dark synaptic corners of my boned carcass so bear with me.

A2 and O1 are not two different types of steel they are different hardening procedures applied to the same type of steel which is HCS. The result of thes etwoe different treatments is a stronger steel with a larger steel grain in case of A2 and a bit lest strong but with a finer grain in case of O1, therefore the edge of an O1 treated steel will be always sharper than an A2 treated steel but will stand less as sharp. So when you choose between both of them there are many factors, initially I was always inclined toward A2 as you have to sharpen it less often than an O1 and my goal was to work the wood and not to sharpen as my sharpening was done on bench stones. It was also harder to sharpen the A2 treated steel than O1. Today if I have to get another edge tool I would definitely go more towards the O1.

Lie-Nielsen have their bench chisels if I remember correctly in both A2 and O1 so you can choose what you prefer. At the time when I got mine they had I believe only the A2 version, but I may be wrong.

About  the Damascus Steel if it is more than just a legend all the attempts make it in modern times to duplicate the metal have failed. Today it just mimics the  characteristics and appearance which resembles the water flow, of the legendary Damascus Steel. Coming back to the Japanese chisels not all of them are called Damascus, only the ones that are showing that specific pattern. Now traditionally, the Japanese chisels are laminated chisels, from two different steels, a hard steel that will form the cutting edge and a much softer steel that that is laminated to the other one. This technique allows for a much faster sharpening  as most of the steel being sharpen is soft steel and only the one forming the cutting edge is the hard steel which you are interested to be of the highest quality possible.  The most common and.
cheaper but not necessarily low quality chisels are ones that are using wrought iron (they say) for the body of the chisel which does not require lots of manufacturing time. The $$$ or $$$$ ones that are called Damascus which are pattern welded, where different carbon content steel sheets are welded  and folded together during forging and mixed with different other metals to form a very strong steel, I don't know the details because they are secret . I am not sure if the Damascus pattern in those Japanese chisels is extending to the steel at that's made to form the cutting edge. When you see them  you will distinctively see the Damascus pattern on the part that backs the real cutting steel in which case that thing has only aesthetical purpose. Damascus or not, there is another aspect that in my opinion is more important, usually the Japanese makers make their own steel and it really is a good quality steel, there are two versions blue and white steel, and based on what they say blue steel is more appropriate for hard American woods and the white ones would be used in softer woods. The quality of both steels is very high. When it comes to the hardness treatment I believe they use the are O1 but I cannot say for sure, but 2-3 more units more on the Rockwell scale compared with the usual 62 means a ton of more cuts in the wood.  I think this can go on and on until there will be enough material to write a book but I should stop here.
We will most likely not find out everything in our lifetimes but you will be about to find out soon how well these two types of chisels cut.

"Have fun...there are worse things than using two fine tools" – not using them is one.

Ionut

[ionut]

Something that I missed, why legendary? because that pattern in the old steel was not coming from different sheets of metal worked together, they were supposed to be carbide clusters in the original steel that are responsible of that particular look and strength of the whatever was made in those time.

Ionut