Stone Grader SP-650

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ionut,
Just so I'm clear: you grind the edge with the graded Tormek stone at  220 and 1000, move on to the Tormek 4000 water stone for the edge only, no back flattening, then on to a Shapton or Norton 8000 bench stone to flatten the back only. At what grit do you start to flatten the back, at 8000? What kind of diamond stone is the 325 and is that only for flattening? Do you use the Tormek strop wheel anywhere in this process? Are you talking about any chisel out of the box for this process, including the Japanese chisels? Is this a first time sharprning and not necessarily an intermediate process? In other words, you take a Matsumurs chisel out of the box, sharpen the edge with the Tormek, 220 & 1000, then the edge with the Tormek 4000 then flatten the back with the 8000. You don't do any edge work with the 8000, right? And after about the thrid sharpening with the above method, you just touch up with the 1000 and strop or what? So your basic approach and attitude towards making money with woodworking, is let the market come to you, so to speak?
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

I apply this process to any straight cutting edge woodworking tool:
- carefully opening the box if there is any.
- admiring the tool in the sun for about 30 min.
- scratching my head very carefully for about 2 more min.
- flattening as I described earlier 600...8000 on bench stones
- grind and or sharpen the bevel. If I don't want to change the bevel angle or fix a defect or nicks of the cutting edge, I start at 1000 setting and move to 4000. I would move to 8000 if I would have an 8000 Tormek stone but they don't make it. If the edge is nicked or I want to change the bevel angle I start at 220 setting 1000 and 4000.
- strop the flat back and the bevel alternatively on the honing wheel.
- plant the toll in the wood...

When resharpening an already initiated edge tool in woodworking, I skip the first three steps.

About woodworking, what can I say, I like woodworking, I would do it with or without the market, I believe it is a spot on my brain...

Ionut

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ionut,
Step three, scratching your head. Would you mind very much going over that part again? Just kidding. Thank you for that thorough and entertaining discription of straight edge sharpening. I will never forget this. Actually, I am surprised to hear that you flatten the back first before sharpening the bevel. But in any case, I do thank you for your time in explaining this to us all. Thank you,
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

People generally overlook it but that step is of a crucial importance for the entire sharpening process. It allows me to bring the proper luster on my baldly head that at the end of polishing would serve me with a reference surface for judging the grade of polishing on the tool. If the tool shines at least as much as my head then I am done, if not I will have to go back to do more polishing.

You need to start with the back flattening, every serious honing jig or in our case SE-76 will use the expected flatten back as a reference in measuring the bevel angle if you take care of the bevel first and you flatten after you may not end with the same bevel angle as initially set  and even worse your edge may not be square.
If you would do all the sharpening free hand then all this accuracy will be in direct correlation with your free hand sharpening skills.

You're welcome,
Ionut

[Ken S]

Steve,

I agree with Ionut about the importance of flattening the backs of chisels and planes.  I don't even think about working on the bevel side of a chisel until I have the back flattened and polished.  Think of the bevel as the second side of a sharp edge.  No matter how perfect the bevel is ground and polished, the edge cannot be sharper than the condition of the back.

I still like to flatten backs on water stones, at least the final stages.  However, I recently flattened and polished the back of a nice old small Buck chisel.  The chisel had a belly.  I removed the belly on the flat side of the Tormek wheel, which saved my hands a lot of discomfort.  The operation still took a long time, perhaps a quarter hour, but the Tormek did the hard work for me.

After you carefully prepare the back of a chisel, you will be very reluctant to abuse the edge!

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Ken,
Just goes to show you, no matter how thick you are, if you hang in, you can still learn something new. I really had no idea about starting on the back first. So, now after a thousand or so posts later, I finally learned something. There's hope for all of us if we're only persistent. Thanks guys, I really did learn a valuable lesson here. Now , the next line of questioning is for you Ken. Do you have any Japanese chisels? If so, what kind and do you notice any difference flattening the backs of those chisels due to the hollow in the back? Also, what do you think is a good container for holding the wet stones while sharpening? I've got a million questions, it never ends. It's my hope that others are reading this and learning. Obviously, there are people on ths forum who are extremely knowledgeable and thankfully willing to share that knowledge. Thank you gentlemen.
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Guys,

As a general rule, when you deal with a bad shaped chisel or plane iron that has a belly on it's back you can always return it, any serious seller or manufacturer would change it or return your money. In my case the Lie-Nielsen that has a small belly which I truly believe was a very isolate accident, I choose to still flatten it and keep it because I wanted to see how it works and I wasn't willing to wait for exchanging it even thought Lie-Nielsen offered me to change to tool or return me the money.

Ionut

[tooljunkie]

Hi Steve

For your question "what do you think is a good container for holding the wet stones while sharpening?"

Have a look at this from Lee Valley.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071

Dan

[Steve Brown]

Thanks Dan,
Not cheap, but I like it.
Steve

[Steve Brown]

Ionut,
So, you got the back flat, how do you like the steel?
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,
I claim no guru status with chisels.  I will gladly share what I do know.  I own one Japanese chisel.  It's a "bachi nomi" (a fishtail chisel).  It's also a very recent purchase from the Japan Woodworker.  Ernie Conover recommend it in his classes and dovetail book.  (It's a very good book, and should also be part of your personal library.)  It is used for cleaning out the sockets of half blind dovetails.  I bought the 5/8" size.  You should only need one size.

I think Japanese chisels are very fine tools. I would suggest you purchase a half inch size chisel and use it alongside of your western chisels.  That will give you "seat of your pants" experience at minimal cost.  After a while you will either decide to buy more or stick with your present chisels.  The hollow back should expedite flattening.

As I posted earlier, my workaday chisels are a set of Stanley 60 "butt" chisels.  They have served me well.  Along the way, I added a set of Marples blue chips (now Irwin).  I don't know if they are stellar, but I have no complaints.

My prized chisels are a set of Stanley 750s I inherited from my grandfather.  To this set I very recently added a Lie-Nielsen 5/16" bevel chisel.  I like the size and balance of the Lie-Nielsen chisels.  They are very well made, and have interchangeable handles.  (By the way, all the bevel edge chisels up to 3/4" share the same handle size, a welcome change from the Stanleys.)

I suspect the A2 steel of the Lie-Nielsens won't hold an edge quite as long as Japanese chisels.  I like the feel and balance, and with a Tormek, more frequent touch up are not a problem.  While I appreciate the Japanese chisels, I guess I am a traditional Yankee woodworker.

Somewhere I read a suggestion to buy 1/2" chisels and try them.  I think that's a good idea.  Your hands will let  you know which kind fits you and your work.  Having a couple spare very sharp 1/2" chisels ready to go in the middle of a project won'd hurt you, either.

Don't skimp on the flattening time.  I am quite experienced in how not to flatten chisels.  I spent many hours flattening mine with oilstones.  Then I wore through much of my 1000 grit water stone.  I should have started with the 220 tone.  (20-20 hindsight)  Now if the chisel is not flat, I now use the side of the Tormek wheel and do final polishing with the water stones.  The Tormek does the hard work.

By the way,  I sent you post in the hand tool part of the forum.  I think this thread needs to migrate to hand tools.  (It is interesting.)

Ken