Tormek Community Forum

I feel sort of stupid about asking this question but I will anyway.
The SP-650 that I have has two different textures.  The grey side, which to me feels relatively smooth and a black  ( darker ) side which to me feels coarser than the grey side.  My question is which side do I use to change the stone to fine grinding? I really do not want to "wear down" my stone any more than I have to.

Fine side fine; course side course.

The fine side will polish the stone so that it delivers a cut equivalent to a 1000 grit stone. The coarse side of the grader will restore the grindstone to its 220 grit cut.

The wear from the grader is very minimal in both directions. You'll take more material off the grindstone with the tool you're sharpening than you will with the grader.

The first thing I do when I am preparing to sharpen something is use the grader to get the grindstone prepared for what I want it to do. And, beyond that, when rough grinding something, I may refresh the surface of the grindstone with the coarse side several times during the process -- every 3 or 4 minutes or so.

I've recently purchased the T-7 system. I would like to know what the proper incremental increase in grit should be as you move up in the sharpening ladder, so to speak. In other words, if I start with the original stone in the finely dressed state of 1000, and if I wanted to change stones as I move up in grits, should I move up in 500 grit increments? For example, if I start with 1000, should I then progress to 1500 then to 2000 and so on? If that's the case, how do I do that? It seems that the next stone up in the Tormek system is the Japanese waterstone which is 4000. It seems to me going from 1000 to 4000 is too big a jump. This is mainly for bench planes and chisels. Can anybody give me some advice here? Thanks,
Steve B.

I too am used to doing my sharpening using a  (120x) white grinding wheel then using water stones going up in smaller increments 220x , then 800x, 4000x, 8000x then hone with an aluminum oxide Honing Compound for final honing on a felt wheel.

With the Tormek system you don't need to do all of that.

Just start with the Tormek Grindstone at 220x then use the Stone Grader (fine side 1000x) to refine & remove the scratch pattern of the coarse grinding then hone on the Leather Honing Wheel using Tormek Honing Compound.

I was sceptical of the big jumps in grit but I now get way better results then I ever could using water stones & going up to 8000x

I will never go back.


Dan

You could use the Japanese waterstone at 4000 & I may buy this stone at some time but so far I have not needed it.

Just as a note, the only time when I would go from 1000 to 4000 and to 8000 would be only when I would have to initially lap a blade. Because I still do this by hand on water stones it pays off to have an intermediate grit, I always get a polished back as I like it, faster.

Ionut

My 220 grit stone is one of the main reasons I bought my Tormek. I had to flatten the backs of a set of chisels and foolishly started with and 1000 grit stone.  The 220 stone remains like new; the 1000 stone is about a quarter inch thinner; and my hands and wrists were sore for about a week.

I now use the flat side of the Tormek wheel to get the backs flat and most of the way ready. (I use a pneumatic foot switch to help keep the chisel flat against the stone.) It isn't any faster than the 1000 stone, but is much easier on my hands.  Then, like Ionut, I switch to the 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit stones for the final polish. The Tormek does the hard work.

Ken

Is there an 8000 grit stone available for the T-7?

Steve, Tormek does not sell 8000 grit wheels.  The Norton 8000 waterstone sells for about a third more than the 4000 grit stone.  Would you pay close to $400 for an 8000 grit wheel for your Tormek?  I doubt there would be sufficient market for Tormek to develop and market such a stone.

Ken

Once you have sharpened a chisel or plane blade on the Tormek system you could easily & quickly hone or add a micro bevel using water stones at 80000x.

I use the Veritas® Mk.II Honing Guide
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1)

but if you don't have a Honing Guide it is easy to feel the 2 points of the bevel that the Tormek creates due to the arc & this means you only need to remove a tiny amount of steel on a flat stone. 

Makes sense what you say about the cost of an 8000 grit Tormek waterstone. Not practical. So you go to the Norton 8000 waterstone and stop there? I know you can purchase Japanese waterstones up to at least 30,000 grit. Where do you draw the line?
Steve

Hi Steve
Wow!! Japanese Water Stones up to at least 30,000 grit!

Do you have a link to these Water Stones?

Going to 8000x then the leather wheel or with honing compound at 0.5 microns will leave a mirror Finnish.

Here is a Stone Grading Chart showing Table of Stones and their Particle Sizes

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46224&cat=1,43072 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46224&cat=1,43072)

Here is 2 sites that talk about of water-stones up to 30000-grit
But I think it is way over kill!

Good for someone who just wants to sharpen & never do any woodworking.

http://www.fine-tools.com/G-shapton30000.html (http://www.fine-tools.com/G-shapton30000.html)

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/woodworking-gearheads-geeks/ (http://thewoodwhisperer.com/woodworking-gearheads-geeks/)

Tooljunckie,
So the consensus is that 8000 and then strop is good for chisels and planes? What about steel? For example, if you have a newer Stanley plane, leave it alone and take it to 8000 and strop, or do you think looking into possibly better steel makes sense? Like Lie Neilsen or Ron Hock A-2? Also, if the original bevel on the chisel is 25 degrees, is the micro bevel at 30 degrees using the 8000 grit? I don't want to just sharpen, but I do want to take a common sense approach to getting the best edge possible.
Steve

Hi Steve,

My previous email had been removed and I agree with that because I was referring to some competitor products.
At the time when I was hand sharpening with water stones and today when I still lap the tools by hand I used to go up to 8000 grit in this sequence – 1000 (or 800) – 8000 or sometimes 4000 in between for the bevel and 1000-4000-8000 for the backs.  With the water stones you can go higher and you will get a longer lasting edge. How much longer, not that much based on what I've seen. So from the practical point of view and considering that I am working wood not steel and I hand sharpen witrh water stones I stop to the 8000.
Since I got converted to the Tormek I sharpen at 1000, hone the edge on a 4000 Tormek Japanese stone and do a final cleanup on the leather wheel which in theory is equivalent with 6000 grit. This is fast, reliable and  personally I don't see a reason why I would bother to go further than that, for me the effort to go from here to 8000 is not justified. If I would want to have the edge tool framed for showing to the people I would probably go to a higher polishing but fortunately I don't have to do that.

Ionut

My most used chisels are a set of Stanley 60s, now almost forty years old.  If Japanese chisels are "the Ferraris of chisels", mine would probably be the Chevy pickup models.  They have served me well, and continue to do so.  I have used them for a few dovetails, mortise and tenons, fine paring, and a lot of not so genteel work.  I don't think they would benefit much from anything beyond the Tormek honing wheel.  Leonard Lee states in his sharpening DVD that most woodworkers really don't have the skill to benefit from finer honing that 4000.  I would agree with him.

I can also see the value in trying to push back the skill frontier be more painstaking sharpening for tools used in fine work.  I would not discourage anyone from the pursuit of excellence.  The Tormek can certainly handle the hard work of sharpening.  Whether or not one chooses to use other honing techniques, the Tormek is a trooper for grinding.

Ken

I agree with not needing to do any further stone work once you have the Tormek system.
I can get more consistent results in a fraction of the time even though the Tormek system at 1000x & stropped on the leather wheel does not give you the same appearance of a High gloss mirror finish witch does not seem to show a scratch pattern.

I am totally satisfied with my T-7.
I am finding it hard to do any work because I keep finding something to sharpen, It is like a addiction right now.

Hi Steve
There are users of this group that will know more than me.

But the quality of steel does make a big difference & depending what you paid for your newer Stanley plane it may not be the best quality of steel.
I haven't upgraded any of my old Stanley plane blades but I will at some point & go for A2 steel or I will go for a new high quality plane like Lie Neilsen or Veritas. http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/Search.aspx?action=n (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/Search.aspx?action=n)

Some of the blades that are available now are thicker to help reduce chatter.

If I do I think I will go for a blade & chip breaker combo like these.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=42607&cat=1,41182,43698,42607 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=42607&cat=1,41182,43698,42607)

As far as angles & micro bevels go & Tuning up a new plane these may be of help.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011172036.pdf (http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011172036.pdf)

http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011177073.pdf (http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011177073.pdf)

http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011186096.pdf (http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011186096.pdf)

Hope this helps Steve

Dan

Dan,

I would not replace blades on a plane until you have skillfully tuned the plane and sharpened the existing blade to razor sharpness.  Concurrently, you should acquire the skill to use the plane well.  At this point, you may well decide to replace the blade, upgrade the plane, or start making things.

I have watched Ernie Conover do some amazing work with an old Stanley smoothing plane he had just tuned. 

Ken

I have tuned my planes to work very well & can get shavings as thin as .0001 but would still like to see how an A2 blade would stand up to the original.

Another reason to have more than 1 blade for a plane would be to allow you to have multiple bevel angles for different woods Soft, Hard, highly figured an so on.

This is a practicable & reasonable reason to own multiple blades.

I would replace a blade on a plane If I new or thought it was not great steel (say from China) or in my case because I want to.

And I could have multiple to switch out to handle highly figured woods as I mentioned.

I know what your saying but it is not like I am buying a car & before driving it with the original engine I slap a 1200 hp engine in an go.

Dan,

Your points are well taken. 

Ken

Hey Dan,
What have you done to flatten the bottom of your planes. I saw a thing on Youtube where a guy used 150 wet or dry on glass and ground that until the pencil marks disappeared. Ever done that? I just recovered a Stanley block plane that accidentally was left in the trunk of my car and got rusty. I tried Navel Jelly on a whim and that was not worth it in my opinion. I spent the day sanding with 400 and watching the Jets spank NE. I would just like to be sure the bottom is flat and remove as much of the staining as is practical. I also agree with you about having multiple plane irons. Can you tell us what irons you have been using that you like?
Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve

I have seen the same thing using sand paper on glass or other flat surfaces such as Granite or even your table saw or jointer.

in the past I did try this but in my case it did not work well but I did not use adhesive (only taped at perimeter) & found the sand paper would slip & wrinkle up, but done correctly it should work great.

If I was to do it againg I would use self adhesive sandpaper or use a spray adhesive for the plane bottom
The last methods before getting the Tormek T-7 I to flatten the Iron was using Japanese Water Stones
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=43071&cat=1,43072 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=43071&cat=1,43072)

But I think the Norton stones cut faster (were not available when I started buying water stones)

I later purchased the The Stone Pond http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1)

Lapping Grit
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33017&cat=1,43072 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33017&cat=1,43072)
Here are some links 

Sharpening a Plane Iron with a Pitted Back
http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00177.asp (http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00177.asp)

Tune Up a Block Plane
http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00167.asp (http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00167.asp)

Dan,
You certainly are a wealth of useful information. Thanks for your very helpfol feedback. There are several good videos on Youtube under the title "Usung and tuning a block plane" you might want to look at when you have a minute. Keep up the good work. People like you make for a strong woodworking community.
Steve

Dan,
Another thing I forgot to mention, have you heard about a Nagura stone?
S

Thanks Steve

Yes & I do have one
I can't say it make a big difference but the say it works

It create a slurry to help & it is said to flatten high spots on the stone but if it does it is hard to tell
You only use them on 4000, 6000, 8000 and 10,000 grit finishing waterstones.


Here are a few links

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51961&cat=1,43072,43071,51961 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51961&cat=1,43072,43071,51961)

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/nagurastone.aspx (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/nagurastone.aspx)

http://www.woodturns.com/articles/tools/jap_waterstones.htm (http://www.woodturns.com/articles/tools/jap_waterstones.htm)

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2817 (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2817)

There are many videos of using Nagura Stones on YoTube as well.

Dan

Hi Guys,

Just few more notes:

-   Multiple blades with different bevels are a must in my opinion, I personally like the low angle planes as they use the same shaped blades so they are interchangeable. Before tuning up the plane I would make sure the blad is in perfect condition first and the chip breaker if it has one.
-   Dan - most of my plane blades are A2 and they are great blades, they stand a lot of work after properly sharpened. Unfortunately not long ago I have  made my first wooden plane and I've used one of the Hock's blades which is a O1 one and I found out that the  O1 steel  allows a much better sharper edge, but of course it doesn't last that long so it is a matter of what kind of work is done and what is expected from the blade.
-   Steve - to minimize as much as possible the flattening of the plane you should aim in having flatten or rust cleaned three surfaces of the sole, the front,  the area in the front of the mouth opening and the heel of the plane sole, ideally you can go to have it all flat but that may take a long time. If it is a small block plane you can also use a 150  or 220 or 320 large DMT diamond stone to start, which ever you have, it will remove material fast.
-   I have no means to measure effects of the Nagura stone, but because I still flatten all my tools by hand I found out since I use it that  polishing happens much faster and when flattening it helps a lot with not having the blade locked on the stone which happens immediately on a 8000 stone when the stone and the blade are flat. I could not detect any other difference related to the quality of the edge when using the Nagura stone. I have doubts about using the Nagura stone for flattening or taking out the high spots, the makers present the stone as a conditioning  medium  for the polishing stone because of the fine slurry that gets created and not for flattening. For flattening the best is a large diamond stone.

Ionut

Thanks for your info about the A1 & A2 blades.

I agree with your doubts about using the Nagura stone for flattening or taking out the high spots, even if it did shave the high spots down the stone is too small & would follow the highs & lows.
You would need a stone at least the same size (larger would be better).

I do have 2 Diamond stones from Norton but they are a little small for my liking & only come in Coarse (Yellow), 325 Grit & Fine (Orange), 750 Grit

The next time I will go for the large DMT diamond stones.

Dan

It seems there are probably two groups on this forum: Older guys (like me) who have acquired their tools over the years and younger members who are actively acquiring tools.

Tools tend to be around for a long time, both good and not so good ones.  I think there is value in pursuing multiple blades for a plane.  However, before invested much in blades, I would make sure I had a first-rate plane for them.  I think Ionut is right on recommending low angle planes.  My first choice would be a Lie-Nielsen low Angle Jack Plane.  The plane comes with a low angle blade. A toothed blade is available, as is a scraper blade.  Lie-Nielsen will supply A2 blades in any bevel angle requested.  This plane is an outstanding tool, and can be made to function as several planes.

A large diamond stone would be very nice to flatten planes and chisels.  If one intends to flatten many tools, it would seem a good investment.  For a Stanley block plane, wet or dry sandpaper glued onto a piece of glass will do a very fine job for very little cost.  The cost of a large diamond stone and a replacement A2 blade would go a long way toward the cost of a Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley plane.

I presently own one Lee Valley plane (the small plough) and one lie-Nielsen chisel.  The quality and engineering is outstanding in both.  If I had to replace my old tools I would go for this quality, even though it would mean a longer acquisition time.

Ken   

Yes I think you are correct Ken on that there are two groups on this forum.

I may be in the middle at 49 years of age but also that I was into woodworking along time ago but lost a place to do it for many years. I have had most of my planes for a long time that came from my Grand father who apparently was quite the master cabinet builder from England & specialized in refinishing furniture & French Polishing.

I never really knew him I was too young but I did keep his planes but I wish I could have to learned from him.
I was a young boy when I received the planes & even then I was interested in tools even though I was not into woodworking yet.

But maybe it was the start of of my tool addiction & passion for woodworking.

I am not a master but I take it slow & hope to improve now that I have a new 20'x36' deticated shop.

I really should learn more about the planes I received but I too love the looks & feel of the Lie-Nielsen low Angle Jack Plane as well as the Veritas Low-Angle Planes.
I don't own any of these yet.  :-[

Thanks Ken
Dan

Nice post, Dan.  I too, am fortunate enough to have some of my grandfathers' tools.  They are treasures.  Our grandfathers lived in an era when Stanley, Preston, and Record made quality products.  With our present day technology, makers such as Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley have surpassed the older toolmakers, albeit at a much higher price!  That does not mean that our classic tools are not capable of fine work in skilled hands. 

I hope you (and others) will continue to post.  There is much to be learned from our combined experiences.
The woodworking portion of this forum could certainly use a dose of new life.

Ken

Dan and Ken,
My Grandfather came to this country from Hungary at the turn of the century at the age of 29. He left his wife and daughter in Hungary. He was a carpenter, made most of his own tools as well as a number of musical instruments. He couldn't speak English, but he was able to send for his wife and daughter, buy a house and raise nine kids through the Depression. I have a couple of his planes. I spent my entire life as a carpenter and construction manager for the likes of Turner Construction. I'm now 65, am putting my first shop together, and I'm finally doing what I dreamed about virtually all my life. So now I am slowly accumulating the best tools I can afford like the Tormek and the Jet shaper and so on. We do have a wealth of history, experience and knowledge in our community. Nice that we can share these things.
Steve   

Yes
Absolutely Ken.

I wish I could have known him more & that I could have got more of his tools.
As it was more distant family who had not bothered with with my Grand Father or us at all all came out of the woodwork sort-of speak & grabbed all the best things they could.

So as it was there wasn't allot of his tools left.
I was told he had allot of wood planes & chisels galore.

The Tormek only comes with one stone and it is either 220 or 1000 grit depending on how it left the factory. It is graded into the other grit by the stone grader. It goes from 220 to 1000, there are no intermediate steps on the factory stone. I have a Jap 8000 grit bought from somewhere. It is not necessary. 30,000 grit would be totally useless in my humble opinion. That would seem to duplicate window. That might polish something in a month or to of polishing.  I have and used to use a white Arkansas stone, it too is practically useless. My knives were sharp but I dnt know that they were sharper than the Arkansas pink made them. The 8000 is a stropping type thing.

Steve,

The story of your grandfather is remarkable.  We can learn so much from that generation.  Like Dan, I believe you and I honor our grandfathers by following them in woodworking.  I believe we are links in a chain, benefitting from those before us and, hopefully, helping those after us.

The imp in me would like to place a useless, but intriguing, gadget in my tool box to puzzle my heirs.  They might even find a use for it!

This is a fascinating group post.  I hope more like it will follow.

Good luck building your shop; you have certainly paid your dues.

Ken

Dear All,
So, from what I can gather from all you guys, one possible pretty good progression scenerio for sharpening chisels and plane irons would be: Start with the existing 25 degree bevel using the Tormek 220 grit wheel, dress that out to the 1000 grit wheel, move up to the Tormek Japanese 4000 waterstone, create a micro bevel at 30 degrees on an 8000 waterstone using a Veritas MK II sharpening guide meanwhile creating a slurry with a Naguro stone to help keeping the back of the chisel/plane iron from sticking to the 8000 grit waterstone while polishing the back. Strop/polish with the Tormek leather strop wheel after the 8000 grit micro bevel step.  Lastly, periodically as required, flatten the 8000 grit waterstone with the Shapton Glass Diamond Lapping Plate. Try to refrain from holding up a 7-11 to pay for all this. Sound pretty much like a state of the art approach, anybodY have anything to add? By the way Jeff, is there a spell check function on this thing?
Steve

Jeff,

You must be a faster sharpener than I am.  Polishing a chisel bevel to a mirror finish with Arkansas stones took me six weeks.  (Just kidding, but it was a very slow and painful, to my hands, process.)  The most annoying part was that after all that work, I had produced a skew chisel.

I believe the problem is operator error/inexperience.  I have since embraced microbevels and water stones.  Of the two I would say the microbevel is the more important factor. 

The main improvement I have found is the Tormek.

You might want to look into microbevels. Leonard Lee and Ron Hock cover them well in their books, as do the Lie-nielsen youtube series.

Ken

I get perfectly good results on my chisels and hand planes using only the stone that comes with the Tormek, followed by the Tormek honing wheel.  I think anything more than that on these tools, and many others too, is overkill.

As to the new plane irons and chisels, I always check to see if the back is flat.  If it has machine marks on the back, I'll flatten it and then sharpen it before I ever use it, unless for some reason I'm in a hurry to use it and don't have another on hand.

Herman,
Do you know anyone who has used the Tormek 4000 grit Japanese water stone?
Steve

I used the Arkansas stones on knives only and they were brought to a final edge from a new factory edge. Therefore, the time required was not all that great but still several minutes. The final stone used was also the translucent grade, not white as stated. According to Dans Whetstones this is the hardest grade. As I said, this is largely for self gratification as it is so fine as to be unnecessary for any reasonable purpose. It is basically for bragging rights as it is nearly as smooth as glass and would take forever to use unless your item was razor sharp already.
I am not aware of a spell check mechanism.
Your scenario is way overkill. As I mentioned, I have the/an 8000 grit Jap stone and it is actually more of a polisher in my opinion. I am sure it might ad the nth degree to an already extremely sharp edge but it too is for bragging rights. Also, the leather wheel is not necessary after the 8000 grit stone, there is no burr to be removed. The 8000 grit wheels are softer then the Tormek wheels but with the minimal usae that they would see, they should last for a while. I think I bought mine from Woodcrafter and the first one I got wobbled like a weeble. I tried to reattach it with no success. The good folks at Woodcrafter paid to pick up the bad wheel and shipped me another which worked fine. All i ahve ever sharpened is knives and I agree with Herman when he said, the 1000 grit is really all you need.

Hi Steve,

You can use only the Tormek without involving the water stones. Sharpening on 220-1000 Tormek, Honing on Tormek Japanese 4000 stone, and a short final step on the leather wheel.
If you want you can put a microbevel on an 8000 stone afterwards, the most time consuming would be clamping the tool in the jig at this stage, but if you do this don't strop on the Tormek leather wheel. I don;t see stropping as being necessary at this point, if you still want to do it do it on a hand strop backed by a piece of wood.
I stop at the Tormek machine and my tools are slicing the end grain of any wood, soft of hard leaving a waxy look on the end grain. I have used to put a microbevel a while back in the 8000 stone, the gain was a longer lasting edge but the edge wasn;t lasting so long to justify the time spend doing that step.
I do my flattening completely by hand up to 8000.

Ionut

Hi All,

Ken- The microbevels are required only in the process of hand sharpening to shorten the polishing time and to minimize the wear on the stones. If a machine is able to achieve the same amount of sharpness the microbevel is not required anymore. I used to put a microbevel with the Tormek Japanese stone but I believe that was inherited from the manual sharpening process. The offset between the stones on Tormek can be used to put a microbevel but I stopped doing that in my case, first because I didn't see a difference in the way the tools are cutting and second because the microbevel is an approximate +2 degrees from the grinding angle (or whatever anybody would decide to make it) and the next sharpening session would require to remove more material than needed to obtain a burr.
Steve - I own a Tormek Japanese 4000 stone for a couple of years now I think and it is a great stone, even though it is a softer one I would probably have to go through the original Tormek a number of times before I would ever have to get a new Japanese Stone. There are a couple of things to pay attention at when you work with it. Make sure it is always clean, it gets black in no time. To clean it use only the fine side of the grader and do not apply too much pressure. Also I would suggest to use the grader on the Japanese stone parallel with the stone and not across it, that way will be less likely to bring the stone out of square by just cleaning it. The diamond holder head on the truing tool has a play which will cause pretty severe chipping on the edge at the exit side of the stone if that play is not removed. You can remove the play by simply using an electric tie that goes through the head and gets tied on the reference back of the truing tool. The Tormek Japanese stone has another huge advantage, if the 1000 grading is not properly done honing on the honing wheel would create a sharp edge but not a long lasting sharp edge and that's because the leather would not be able to remove large scratches, they will get only rounded and polished scratches creating multiple points of failure at the edge of the tool. The Japanese Tormek stone would flatten those scratches fast leaving the edge perfectly straight.

Ionut

Hey Ionut,
Thanks for the feedback. It's great having someone help who has and is using the equipment in question. So for you, ths Japanese waterstone at 4000 is good. If you're going to flatten with the 8000, stropping not necessary. Microbevel, not necessarily required either if you use the 8000. That's good. That all makes sense. I'm not sure I get all that about truing up the Japanese waterstone, but I'll try it once and see if I can figure out what you're talking about. By the way, which 8000 stone do you have? What's your thoughts about the Norton 6000/8000 combo waterstone? I was thinking it probably wouldn't hurt to go through that 6000 to 8000 progression when polishing the back, especially if you had that on one stone. Also, what's your take on lapping the bench stones? Did you say you had the Shapton plate lapper? Thanks,
Steve

Just remember a 4,000 grit water stone will take you to a 3 micron edge, and an 8000 grit water stone will only take you to a 1.2 micron edge but power honing on the Tormek leather wheel with Green Chromium Oxide will take you down to a 1/2 micron edge and takes relatively little time.

Neal 

So Neal,
If I understand you, you suggest using the Tormek Japanese 4000 grit waterstone and finishing up with the Tormek leather strop with Green Chromiun Oxide. Stropping only the back of the blade and skipping the 8000 bench stone altogether. Is there a step between the 4000 and the GCO strop?
Steve

I just use the standard 220/1,000 grit stone starting with the course (220) if I haven't sharpened a tool in a while and then regrading to fine (1,000)to finish up the grind. I go from that right to the
leather hone and Chromium Oxide with no steps in between.  It probably takes little longer than using an intermediate stone but given the changeover time I doubt there is a lot of difference and the end result is the same.  It is not necessary to sharpen every time and unless I damage an edge, I just hone with Chromium oxide from time to time-it's just like grinding with a very fine stone.  

Neal

Neal,
Is there anything that needs to happen with the white honing compound that's on the leather strop, does that need to be cleaned off prior to using the Green Chromium Oxide? Also, you don't see any benefit to purchasing and using the 4000 grit Tormek Japanese waterstone? Do you know what the micron rating is on that white stropping compound thst comes with the machine?
Steve

Tormek lists its paste as 3 microns so it is a bit courser than the green stick but they both give a high polish.  The Tormek paste is a little faster due to the slightly larger grit.  I have used them interchangeably and could never really tell the difference in the finished edge.  8000 grit or 30,000 grit, either way it takes more microscope than I have to see the difference.  I have never cleaned between the two except maybe a quick wipe with a dry cloth to get rid of the little black junk that clutters up the wheel after use.

Neal

Very good, Neal. Thanks.
Steve

Hi Steve,

I have replaced almost entirely bench stones sharpening with the Tormek. I mostly sharpen woodworking hand tools few knives and planer/jointer blades and yes the Tormek Japanese stone allowed me to do that. Let me clarify, stropping can always be done to further refine the edge, I personally consider it unpractical considering the extra time I have to spend for an extra sharpness. For me I found a good balance between the edge quality and the time invested to get to it which is short enough to enjoy cutting the wood again. So to be clear, the microbever is not necessary in the context of using the Tormek system. When using the bench stones it is still necessary for the reasons I posted earlier.
I will try to take a picture about how to prepare the TT-50 the truing tool in order to avoid the vibrations.
I don't know the Japanese maker for the 8000 bench stone, it doesn't have anything engraved on the stone or support, but the stone is working great. The Naniwa 8000 or 10000 are great stones they are pretty hard and give a great polish.I personally like japanese stones more than others simply because I they never stop cutting, but I heard from other sources Norton are good as well, but I can;t make a comparison as I don't own any. I have used the Japanese ones intensively for years before Tormek and I still have/use them for flattening and they are really great.
Of course it doesn't hurt, you can go through all intermediate stages if you want. You will still spend the same amount of time for the overall sharpening/polishing session but the stages on each stones would be shorter and that would wear less each stone and possibly your 8000 edge would be more of an 8000 stone than if the jump would have been made from 4000. At that scale is pretty hard to see the difference just by eye.
When flattening I start with a quick assessment by giving few strokes on a 325 or 600 diamond stone and then go to 1000 water stone and I can quickly see how bad or good is the back. This assessment step takes less than a minute but allows me to see the condition of the back. If it looks bad I get back to the diamond stone and flatten the whole back on it and after that I continue with 1000/4000/8000 Japanese bench stones using the Nagura stone for the 4000 and 8000.
I don;t own a Shapton plate I use only DMT diamond stones they are dead flat, fast and effective, and I also use them for keeping the bench stones perfectly flat. Don't forget this step when using bench stone to get perfect consistent results you will have to frequently flatten the stones. With the diamond stones this step takes a very short time and the results are perfect.
Neal is right, you could use the Green Chromium Oxide as well on the leather wheel, the theory say the abrasives in the compound are 0.5 microns, the manufacturer can say anything because most of us have no means to verify it so I tend to be more reserved about that. I personally tried it on the Tomrek and I saw no difference between the Tormek compound and the green beast, I prefer to use the Tormek compound as it doesn't gunk the wheel.

Ionut

Very interesting and informative posts. 

Ionut, would you please post some more detail about your modification of the TT-50 to reduce vibrations.

Thanks,

Ken

Another Question,
Jeff Farris does a Tormek chisel sharpening video. He paints majic marker on the face of the chisel and then keeps tweeking the chisel until the stone hits the face, removing all of the marker. He then declares that to be in the true square position and proceeds to sharpen the chisel. Seems to me that the tool holder is, by defination, square to the stone and turning the chisel would indeed remove the marker but would also skew the chisel and would leave the face out of square. Did I miss something? (Not trying to do an end run around you Jeff if you're listening in. Not sure if you monitor theese posts)
Steve

Hi Ken,

I am not sure if the website will allow me, I've tried in the past and it didn't work, but I will try to post a picture when I'll have some time. If that would not be possible I will send a personal message to everyone who's interested.

Ionut

Hi Steve,

I am not sure if I understand the question but the squareness depends on a number of factors.  Firstly the square jig is square to the universal support and not to the stone. Truing the stone would ensure that your universal support is parallel with the surface of the stone which makes the tool square in reference to the stone. The square jig has a reference shoulder on which the tool gets rested when is clamped and if the stone is true you should always end with a square edge. The marker method is for reproducing a bevel and it has nothing to do with how square the edge will end. The squereness is judged in comparison with the side of the tool that is referenced to the straight jig (SE-76). Another point of reference is the back of the tool in reference with which we judge the bevel angles which with SE-76 rests on the correct side of the jig in comparison with the old straight jig where the back of the tool was referenced against the opposite side (the clamp) which was not ensuring always square results. So Jeff and the manual are right the new straight jig with a properly trued stone should render square and consistent results.

Ionut

Hi ionut
I would be interested in a personal message with a picture about on how to prepare the TT-50 the truing tool in order to avoid the vibrations.

Thanks
Dan

Quote from: Steve Brown on January 24, 2011, 03:26:37 PM
Another Question,
Jeff Farris does a Tormek chisel sharpening video. He paints majic marker on the face of the chisel and then keeps tweeking the chisel until the stone hits the face, removing all of the marker. He then declares that to be in the true square position and proceeds to sharpen the chisel. Seems to me that the tool holder is, by defination, square to the stone and turning the chisel would indeed remove the marker but would also skew the chisel and would leave the face out of square. Did I miss something? (Not trying to do an end run around you Jeff if you're listening in. Not sure if you monitor theese posts)
Steve

Steve, this was with the older jig, which allowed the tool to be clamped at a bit of an angle relative to the horizon. It took some tweaking to be sure the tool was flat in the holder. If the tool was square to begin with, the method I showed with the marker would maintain it.

Quote from: ionut on January 24, 2011, 05:58:39 PM
Hi Ken,

I am not sure if the website will allow me, I've tried in the past and it didn't work, but I will try to post a picture when I'll have some time. If that would not be possible I will send a personal message to everyone who's interested.

Ionut

I did notice the amount of play with the TT-50 & to reduce vibrations I held the square carriage that holds the diamonds up against the main body to reduce the movements.

Perhaps this is done on purpose but if not I would like to see the jig with less slop & movement between the threaded rod & main body.

Hi Dan,

That's correct Dan, the tie should go through the diamond housing and wrapped over the reference surface. It will reduce the vibration to the point where you can advance the diamond head as slow as you want creating a very fine surface on the stone with almost no scratches marks. I will try to post the picture tonight my time though for clarification.

Thanks,
Ionut

Thanks Jeff, I am no longer confused, at least as far as the squarensss issue is concerned. But while I have you on the line, Jeff, If you were doing cabinet work and some furniture, would you be inclined to buy the 4000 grit Japanese waterstone? Or is that stone primarily aimed towards the turner?
Steve.

Quote from: nhblacksmith on January 24, 2011, 12:47:30 AM
Tormek lists its paste as 3 microns so it is a bit courser than the green stick but they both give a high polish. ...

Not quite the whole story. Tormek PA-70 is a blend of 3 micron, 2 micron and 1 micron particles. As the coarser particles break down, the finer particles take over. That gives it the unlikely combination of a relatively fast cutting action with a very fine finish.

Quote from: Steve Brown on January 25, 2011, 12:44:28 AM
Thanks Jeff, I am no longer confused, at least as far as the squarensss issue is concerned. But while I have you on the line, Jeff, If you were doing cabinet work and some furniture, would you be inclined to buy the 4000 grit Japanese waterstone? Or is that stone primarily aimed towards the turner?
Steve.

Turners would be the last group that would need the 4000 grit waterstone. The Japanese waterstone offers a very fine finish from the grindstone. It's really not that much different from the finish from the leather honing wheel, but since it comes from the stone, it is more precise than the leather honed wheel. That said, it cannot remove much steel, so it is of limited value if you let your tools get dull before you sharpen them.

My personal feeling is that if you're competent with the SG-250 and leather honing wheel, and you're satisfied with the quality of edge you're producing, then there's no reason to get the SJ-250. The SJ-250 can produce a finer edge than the SG-250, but whether the average woodworker needs that edge or not is a matter of that average woodworker's personal preference.

Here are the pictures I've promised about the workaround for the TT-50.

Thanks,
Ionut

(http://C:%5Cphotos%5Cbebu%202010-20113%5C_DSC0947.jpg)
(http://C:%5Cphotos%5Cbebu%202010-20113%5C_DSC0948.jpg)

It looks like the pictures are not being uploaded. Dan you can send me a private message with the email address you want me to send the pictures to.

Ionut

Jeff,

I really appreciate your last post.  I realize the primary driver (and funding) for this forum is to encourage sales of the Tormek and its accessories.  That's fine.  When a salesman advises a potential customer that a product might not be all that useful to him, that's an honest salesman.

(I buy most of my tormek from my local dealer.)  I did order the Advanced Water Trough and a micro adjuster part from SharpTools USA.  My order arrived in lightning time. Excellent service.

Keep up the good work and thanks for the honest advice.

Ken

Send the pictures to jeff at sharp tools usa dot com (without spaces...you know...) and I'll see if I can get them to post here. It may be an admin setting that I need to adjust.

Quote from: ionut on January 25, 2011, 06:47:09 AM
Here are the pictures I've promised about the workaround for the TT-50.

Thanks,
Ionut

Thanks Ionut
It worked like a dream, no play at all.

Dan

(http://C:%5Cphotos%5Cbebu%202010-20113%5C_DSC0947.jpg)
(http://C:%5Cphotos%5Cbebu%202010-20113%5C_DSC0948.jpg)

Dan,
Where did you find Ionut's pics? Are you using the grader on the 1000 or 4000 stone?
Steve

I am glad it did.
And now if you want a fine surface on the stone with no scratches you can go as slow as you want  when truing.

Steve - I wasn;t able to load the pictures, I have sent them though to Jeff he may be able to post them. Tonight when I get home I will send you a private message to get your email address and will attach the pictures.

Ionut

Hi Steve

I only have the original stone SG-250 at this point.
From every thing I have learned from this forum I think I will put my money into Jigs/Kits

I have the Planer Blade Attachment SVH-320 & it worked great.
The next one I will get will be HTK-705 Hand Tool Kit

I would like to get the Tormek Japanese Waterstone is 4000 grit at some time but for now I am amazed at the edge I can achieve with original stone SG-250.

Hi Steve,

I want to make something clear in the context of Jeff's great answer posted earlier.
I believe Tormek is the greatest machine in sharpening and this is coming from a user and  not from a salesman or anything else, but no company in the world could make a machine that would make all the sharpeners happy whether they are woodworkers or knife makers and so on. The basic setup of the machine comes in a way that would bring everyone close to doing a great job sharpening. But no one says you can't go further with that and in my case I choose to invest in customizing this process as far as I could and now the only reason to not be able to sleep at night is the urge of cutting wood with an cutting edge close to perfection for which I consider Tormek being liable.
Now coming to the Tormek Japanese water stone, the stone is not meant to do sharpening, it is meant for honing, you can with a non-nicked tool to go directly on the 4000 but it will take you a lot of time if the tool has a minute defect. In my case I always start at 1000 setting on the grinding/sharpening machine and then move on the honing machine with the Japanese stone and hone the edge. I don't grade anymore anything, I have stones that each is used for a particular job. This way I spend more time clamping the tool, getting the angle right, essentially setting up, than actually sharpening and in no time I am back working.
But as Jeff said this is a matter of user preference, and if you need to go as far as I choose to you will find in time. You can be perfectly happy as many other users with one machine/stone for all the sharpening you have to do.

Ionut

Hi Ionut,
I appreciate your feedback.The truth of the matter is, when I saw that Tormek had a 4000 grit stone, I knew I was going to buy it. I'm not the kind to just do the basics, I always strive to go the extra mile. My chisels and plane irons are sharp now vis a vis an India oil stone and an Arkansas oil stone. I wanted the Tormek because I've been looking at ads for it for 30 years. Acouple months ago, I bought one. State of the art, no question about it. I've been posting to see what others think is the way to go as far as bench stones beyond the 4000 Tormek. I think your approach is spot on. I will get the 4000 stone, always keep my iron sharp, and call it a day. Thanks again for your help.
Steve

Hi Steve,

You will never regret the decision of getting that stone. I missed to say in the previous post that if you would be close you could come and see how it works, but if you already decided then is not needed but the offer is still open.

Ionut

Hi Ionut,
I got your photos, thanks. I tried to respond to your email address but it wouldn't go through. You live in CA?
Steve

Hi Steve,

CA as Canada, BC.

Ionut

Darryl,

Take a look at the forum stats.  Your post has generated the most replies in the history of the forum.  In fact, more than the next three combined!

Good job!

Ken

I live in Colorado, I don't think I'll be seeing you boys anytime soon. That's funny, I didn't realie they had electricity in Canada.
Steve

I just modified my TT-50 jig following Ionut's suggestion.  The bounce is gone.  Nice improvement, Ionut. 

Keep up the good work.

Ken

Quote from: Steve Brown on January 27, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
I live in Colorado, I don't think I'll be seeing you boys anytime soon. That's funny, I didn't realie they had electricity in Canada.
Steve

You are right we don't. I had to take my bike apart and adapt the pedals on the Tormek in order to make it work but now I realized that's also the reason why I always end with the perfect edge on my tools.

Ionut

Ionut,
I have to admit, you guys are extremely clever. Do you think Tormek will modify the TT-50? Be interesting to see if there is a reaction to these posts. Keep up the good work.
Steve

I believe that question would be for Jeff to answer or Tormek engineers. Personally, I think the economical aspects of changing the production line to make larger holes in the diamond head housing and fit it with tight tolerances plastic or metal bushings compared with the 5 cents/tie or whatever would be the price of one, may be the reason to not change anything but you never know.

Ionut

Quote from: ionut on January 27, 2011, 02:20:19 AM

Quote from: Steve Brown on January 27, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
I live in Colorado, I don't think I'll be seeing you boys anytime soon. That's funny, I didn't realie they had electricity in Canada.
Steve

You are right we don't. I had to take my bike apart and adapt the pedals on the Tormek in order to make it work but now I realized that's also the reason why I always end with the perfect edge on my tools.

Ionut

This guy ought to try a Tormek. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bx_PkNIfK4&feature=related

I m also from Canada not far from Ionut (across the pond)

Here is how they sharpen knives in Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH92ZpBDlk0&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH92ZpBDlk0&feature=player_detailpage)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nuxwGY6TY_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nuxwGY6TY_k)

tooljunkie,
I'd like to see the burr on the iraqi's knife.  I guess the driver would have to take care of the other side or maybe put it in reverse.
glh17

I like Ionut's bicycle method best, but the Iraqi's approach makes me wonder about the repeatability of those results and also how do they gauge the grit size of the asphalt. There must be a lot of variation from road surface to road surface. And of course, in Iraq you have to constantly be on the lokout for contamination due to road kill as well as pitting of the sharpening surface from suicide bombers. Lucky we have Tormek.
Steve

Just looking at your stone for the first time, right out of the box, let's say, is there a way to tell just by looking if it's been graded to 220 or 1000?
Steve

Steve,
I can tell by feel now that I've used the stone quite a bit.  But, if I just opened the box I don't think there's a good way to tell.  My tormek is always dressed and then stored with the 1000g grind because that's what I use most often.  I will touch it up with the grader prior to using it.
glh17

By looking? No.

Out of the box it is 220.

Here's the thing with the grader and the grading process. That grindstone is 220 grit through and through. The stone grader is an abrasive that is harder than the grindstone. When you use the stone grader to create a fine cutting action you are creating an artificial surface and one that is very, very thin. The 1000 grit finish is a few thousandths thick. Below that, the stone is 220. If you wear through the 1000 grit, the stone will start cutting more aggressively. In flat work (chisels and plane irons) it is rare to wear through the fine surface, but with turning tools, carving tools and knives, a very light touch is needed to keep from exposing fresh abrasives and going to a faster cut.

The sensory tools you need to determine the cut are your ears and fingers, not your eyes. There's a very distinct difference in the sound of the cut when the grader has been used properly (in either direction). When grading the stone to cut fine, it should feel like a piece of wet glass. If it feels abrasive, you haven't used the grader long enough. Going to coarse, the surface should feel much like a piece of 220 grit sandpaper, if it feels slick, it won't cut the way you want it to. This is also true while using the 220 grit...the steel tool is going to dull the crystalline edges. If it doesn't feel like it can cut, it can't and you need to refresh the surface with the coarse side of the grader.

So, you may ask, if the tool is going to make the grindstone smooth, what is the grader for? That would be an excellent question to ask, and one that leads to a discussion of abrasives.

A dull abrasive that is larger is not the same thing as a sharp abrasive that is smaller. Think about it with wood. A piece of almost worn out 100 grit paper removes about as much material as a fresh piece 220 grit paper, but the surface is decidedly different. The worn out 100 grit leaves a burnished, irregular surface. The sharp, fresh 220 grit paper leaves a uniform scratch pattern and no burnishing. So, in the case of the Tormek SG-250, a stone that feels slick from use (glazed) will not cut the same as a stone that has been graded with the smooth side of the stone grader.

Tormek owners that watch me work are constantly surprised at how much I use the stone grader, and are always asking me why I'm using it. The simple answer is, I'm getting the machine ready to do what I want it to do. I just naturally assume it needs grading to do what I want it to do, no matter what that is.

Quote from: ionut on January 25, 2011, 06:47:09 AM
Here are the pictures I've promised about the workaround for the TT-50.

Thanks,
Ionut

The images have to be uploaded on the internet with a unique url. You linked them to the location on your hard drive. I uploaded one to my company server. Here it is. Below the pic are my comments.

(http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/jeff/TT50mod.jpg)

I tested this this morning and found no advantage. I'm not sure what you guys are doing, but I'm going to guess that you're moving too slow. Any vibration I've ever experienced could be eliminated by increasing my traverse speed ever so slightly. All this did was make the knobs harder to turn. Another thing that minimizes vibration is to cut from the outside in rather than inside out (mandatory with the T-3).

When the TT-50 was developed, the first prototypes had a much tighter fit. Within a few uses, the tool would not advance whatsoever. This modification has no negative effect as far as I can tell, but I didn't see that it improved the finish on the stone whatsoever.

Hi Jeff,

I know the link was on my machine but I have no means to deploy a picture on your server I should have probably used the free email sites providers that allow picture uploading but I have no web space created for that purpose. That would mean that whoever wants to load a picture has first to upload the pictures on an internet server.

On the Tomrek Japanese stone regardless how fast you go it will chip the exit edge of the stone badly, I usually take very small cuts not more than 1/12 on the adjustment wheel and whenever I've done that I chipped my stone. It does not happen as bad on the 220 stone, but my Japanese stone still has some of the chips created with the first truing.
On the 220 stone there is a different story, if I use the TT-50 as it is at the max 90 seconds  truing speed it the grinding surface of the stone is full of ditches and even though that does not affect the cutting I do not like the surface left on the stone and more than that when such a surface needs to be graded to 1000  takes a longer time to bring it there.

Thanks,
Ionut

I would add that if you don't see a difference probably your tie is not tight enough. I tied mine as tight just to allow the head to move and  when I did that the TT-50 was mounted on the Universal Support.

Ionut

It seems to me that there should be a way to upload pictures using the built in insert Image option but I have seen others that have the option but don't work.

Other forums that I have seen the members use sites like www.flickr.com (http://www.flickr.com) to upload photos then insert the link

As a thirty five year telephone installer/repair technician, I placed thousands of these cable ties.  Might I suggest that if the head of the tie is moved up to the close edge of the jig as shown in the photo that two bends would be eliminated from the tie.  That would make taughtness more controllable.  The end should also be clipped off.  Also, I filed the rough clipped edge on the tie I placed on my jig based on Ionut's idea.

Ken

Quote from: ionut on January 27, 2011, 02:20:19 AM

Quote from: Steve Brown on January 27, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
I live in Colorado, I don't think I'll be seeing you boys anytime soon. That's funny, I didn't realie they had electricity in Canada.
Steve

You are right we don't. I had to take my bike apart and adapt the pedals on the Tormek in order to make it work but now I realized that's also the reason why I always end with the perfect edge on my tools.

Ionut

Ionut, should you ever decide to become a traveling sharpener on your bicycle and end up un the land just down under (USA) with bicycle trouble, you would find your Tormek would plug into our standard receptacles and work just as well as back home.  Finding a bicycle repairman in this country who both can read the French Canadian of your bicycle repair book and has metric tools might be more difficult.

Actually, both Canada and the US were very early in adopting electrical power standards (60 cycle).  In contrast Great Britain has around twenty different "standards" for electrical power.  Pretty advanced for two frontier countries!

Ken

Quote from: tooljunkie on January 27, 2011, 10:48:17 PM
It seems to me that there should be a way to upload pictures using the built in insert Image option but I have seen others that have the option but don't work.

Other forums that I have seen the members use sites like www.flickr.com (http://www.flickr.com) to upload photos then insert the link

You can. Any image that resides on a photo hosting site can be inserted into a thread.

Yes & it seems to be what most forums use.

Thanks Jeff,
That was a very helpful explanation of how the 220 stone works in relation to grading.
Steve

Ditto what Steve wrote.

Ken

How long do you need to keep the stone grader on the wheel?
Steve

Like I said, it isn't time, it isn't look, it is feel. Keep the grader on the stone until it feels right.

That said, 45 seconds is low average.

Thanks Jeff,
That's what I needed, some baseline so I can get started. This way I'll be able to develop the feel for myself.
Steve

While we have this marathon thread on the stone grader going, let me just write briefly about something that you may not have considered with the stone grader. Tormek talks mostly about fast cutting and fine cutting -- approximately 220 grit and 1000 grit respectively -- but once you become familiar with the stone and the feel of the stone and its cutting properties, you can make the stone cut at pretty much any rate you want between 220 and 1000. Some tools need just a little more tooth than the 1000 grit leaves -- so just don't go all the way to "glass smooth". Another example would be a very thin tool that needs a significant amount of material removed. A fully graded 220 surface would be too aggressive, but if you use the smooth side of the grader for 15 or 20 seconds, you'll tone down the speed of the cut a little.

Jeff,
Interesting. So you can, in theory, go from 220 to 500 or 750 or what ever you need shy of 1000 as required? And by feel, do you mean the feel of the steel on the wheel while you're grinding, or do you mean the feel of the wheel on your fingers as you're grading?
Steve

Feel of the grindstone surface. I do also recognize and pay attention to the vibration in the tool while grinding and the sound of the cutting action, but touching the grindstone surface tells me the most about what the stone is about to do.

I never thought that asking what I thought was a dumb question would generate so many different and varied replies.  This just goes to show us that there is a lot of inteesting information out there in "Tormek land" - i'm glad that I joined the forum :)

Full member. Way to go Ken.
Steve

Thanks, Steve.

Ken

Just reading about chisels in Fine Woodworker. Seems the Japanese chisels are very highly rated. Can anybody compare Japanese chisels to Lie-Neilsen chisels in terms of sharpening. Can't tell if the Japanese steel is O-1 or A-2.
Steve

Hi Steve,

I own both Japanese chisels and few Lie-Nielsen ones. Lie-Nielsen ones are great chisels and finely made but somehow I always grab the Japanese ones for almost everything. I had troubles flattening a Lie-Nielsen one because it had a belly but both of them are easy to sharpen, I would say the Japanese ones go faster as the most part of it is a soft steel. The Japanese ones have the huge advantage of having the back hollowed so flattening goes very fast, a small disadvantage of the hollowed back is the fact that when your edge gets to the hollow part you will have to flatten them again but considering that being very fast I don't see this as a problem. As far as the edge quality and longevity I don't see anything being as good as the Japanese ones but that's my opinion. As an example I was able to cut 4 sides (19" wide) of a chest in fir with the same 4 chisels without the need to re-sharpen them. As far as I know they are O1 and I believe the secret of their quality stands in how they are forged. I also have few mortise ones and I never chipped them even though I pry pretty hard on them and they are hardened at 65.

Ionut

Hey Ionut,
Can you tell me what brand the Japanese chisels are that you use? Japanese Woodworker has a lot of Japanese chisels and some of them are wildly expensive. I guess it depends on the amount of hand forging involved. Supposedly, they're pretty sharp out of the box. Do you use the 4000 stone on them when they're new? Just out of curiosity, what kind of name is Ionut, is that Serbian? Not necessary to answer that, I'm just an very curious person. Thanks,
Steve

Mine are Matsumura, when I got my first couple I wasn't sure how they would work so I didn't want to risk ending with tools collecting dust but immediately knew I didn't waste the money, but I still didn't go further than that, the Damascus ones are very beautiful ones and they are an art to make but I don't consider they are needed for the work I do, If they work better I don't believe they work so much better than the more common ones, they have probably more value as collectibles and as they look I wouldn't put them at work. The price comes from the hand making process that also brings the quality and the capability of retaining the edge for a long time and in the case of Damascus ones the special way they make the alloys and folding of the steel in multiple layers during forging. I never saw a sharp chisel out of the box, whether is Japanese, Lie-Nielsen of cheaper ones at least they are not as sharp as they need to be. I always flatten/sharpen them before I even get them close to the wood. Sharpening starts at 1000 and goes up in my case, if the edges are chipped I start from 220, but I never had a new chisel chipped out of the box. They all say they are razor sharp but they are not... and in my opinion they don't have to be, the most important is for them to be as flat as possible. The makers of the Japanese chisel say you get to the steel quality I am talking about after 2-3 sharpening sessions and it is true.
You, indeed, are a very curious person, it is Romanian.

Ionut

Ionut,
Sounds like pretty serious minded stuff. Like maybe this is not just a hobby for you. What do you do if I might ask. Are you making furniture for sale?
Also interesting. You're rrom Romania, my family is from Hungary. You live in Canada, I live in US. Still neighbors.

Ionut,
After my last post to you, I looked up the Matsumura chisels and I noticed the hollowed out back. Can you flatten the backs with the 220 wheel, or do you nedd to use a bench stone or both.
Thanks, Steve

Hi steve,

: ) yes we are still neighbours. We should probably create a new thread, this thread has slipped far from the original question. Yes I also make solid wood furniture for sale.
As I said in a different post I wouldn't flatten a tool on the side of the Tormek stone for two reasons, there are no real means to true and maintain a perfectly flat side of the stone and secondly the speed difference between the abrasive particles closer to the center of the wheel compared to the ones closer to the grinding surface would lead to uneven grinding action on the tool, but that's me. I always use the bench stones for flattening, it is an infrequent operation and I prefer to have a tool that I can rely on, instead of pulling my hair trying to find why my tools don't get a square edge or they don't cut as I expect them. All the Japanese chisels have hollowed faces for aiding with the flattening, that really makes flattening however you want to do it, fast. As the manual suggests you can flatten the backs on side of the grinding wheel.

Ionut

Ionut,
If you're so inclined, please send me some pics of your work. I think you have my email from my profile.  I've been in the construction business for 40 years, but only now am I actually thinking about maybe supplimenting my income from my shop. Makes sense what you say about flattening the backs on the Tormek. So, do you flatten by hand on 4000 and 8000 bench stones? Do you, by chance, ever use the "ruler trick" to flatten the backs, or do you think that's a little hokey?
You think this thread is getting a little boring for others?

"You think this thread is getting a little boring for others?"

No.

Ken

Thanks Ken,
I'm thinking it's still kinda relevant.
Steve

Hi Steve,

I don't think is boring I just believe it does not serve anymore the question that initiated the thread.
Unfortunately I don't take pictures of my work and I have received many complains about that. My furniture business it is a tiny one, I work alone and I started to do it because people asked me to make things for them. I don't advertise and don't have a portfolio, but I do believe I may have some pictures of some things I've made  that were sent by the people I made them for, I'll have to look in my emails.
As I said earlier I start with a diamond stone 600 (sometimes 325 if the back looks bad or it turns to be a lot of work) then move to 1000, 4000 and 8000. Sometimes when I switch the grit I can quickly see if the work on the previous grit was complete or not and if not I am moving back a step. The ruler trick is a shortcut for plane blades flattening only, you don't want to apply that on chisels and I don't use it, I flatten the tools once and that's all with the exception of the Japanese chisels when I have to do a bit more flattening when I reach the hollow area. Sometimes the back of a plane blade is specifically ground to a 5-10 degrees to modify the cutting edge to avoid the tear out but I prefer to use the flat backs as reference surfaces and change the blade with one having a steeper bevel angle when dealing with difficult woods.

Ionut

It is a good idea to get photo's of your work but like many people I don't always do it.
But at some time I would like to get a custom electric branding Iron to sign pieces that I have done.

Has any one used branding Iron to sign their work?

Yes the posts are getting off topic but I still look through them but for some one new they would have a hard time making sense of how we got here from there.

Hi Ionut,
Just so I'm clear: you grind the edge with the graded Tormek stone at  220 and 1000, move on to the Tormek 4000 water stone for the edge only, no back flattening, then on to a Shapton or Norton 8000 bench stone to flatten the back only. At what grit do you start to flatten the back, at 8000? What kind of diamond stone is the 325 and is that only for flattening? Do you use the Tormek strop wheel anywhere in this process? Are you talking about any chisel out of the box for this process, including the Japanese chisels? Is this a first time sharprning and not necessarily an intermediate process? In other words, you take a Matsumurs chisel out of the box, sharpen the edge with the Tormek, 220 & 1000, then the edge with the Tormek 4000 then flatten the back with the 8000. You don't do any edge work with the 8000, right? And after about the thrid sharpening with the above method, you just touch up with the 1000 and strop or what? So your basic approach and attitude towards making money with woodworking, is let the market come to you, so to speak?
Steve

Hi Steve,

I apply this process to any straight cutting edge woodworking tool:
- carefully opening the box if there is any.
- admiring the tool in the sun for about 30 min.
- scratching my head very carefully for about 2 more min.
- flattening as I described earlier 600...8000 on bench stones
- grind and or sharpen the bevel. If I don't want to change the bevel angle or fix a defect or nicks of the cutting edge, I start at 1000 setting and move to 4000. I would move to 8000 if I would have an 8000 Tormek stone but they don't make it. If the edge is nicked or I want to change the bevel angle I start at 220 setting 1000 and 4000.
- strop the flat back and the bevel alternatively on the honing wheel.
- plant the toll in the wood...

When resharpening an already initiated edge tool in woodworking, I skip the first three steps.

About woodworking, what can I say, I like woodworking, I would do it with or without the market, I believe it is a spot on my brain...

Ionut

Hi Ionut,
Step three, scratching your head. Would you mind very much going over that part again? Just kidding. Thank you for that thorough and entertaining discription of straight edge sharpening. I will never forget this. Actually, I am surprised to hear that you flatten the back first before sharpening the bevel. But in any case, I do thank you for your time in explaining this to us all. Thank you,
Steve

Hi Steve,

People generally overlook it but that step is of a crucial importance for the entire sharpening process. It allows me to bring the proper luster on my baldly head that at the end of polishing would serve me with a reference surface for judging the grade of polishing on the tool. If the tool shines at least as much as my head then I am done, if not I will have to go back to do more polishing.

You need to start with the back flattening, every serious honing jig or in our case SE-76 will use the expected flatten back as a reference in measuring the bevel angle if you take care of the bevel first and you flatten after you may not end with the same bevel angle as initially set  and even worse your edge may not be square.
If you would do all the sharpening free hand then all this accuracy will be in direct correlation with your free hand sharpening skills.

You're welcome,
Ionut

Steve,

I agree with Ionut about the importance of flattening the backs of chisels and planes.  I don't even think about working on the bevel side of a chisel until I have the back flattened and polished.  Think of the bevel as the second side of a sharp edge.  No matter how perfect the bevel is ground and polished, the edge cannot be sharper than the condition of the back.

I still like to flatten backs on water stones, at least the final stages.  However, I recently flattened and polished the back of a nice old small Buck chisel.  The chisel had a belly.  I removed the belly on the flat side of the Tormek wheel, which saved my hands a lot of discomfort.  The operation still took a long time, perhaps a quarter hour, but the Tormek did the hard work for me.

After you carefully prepare the back of a chisel, you will be very reluctant to abuse the edge!

Ken

Ken,
Just goes to show you, no matter how thick you are, if you hang in, you can still learn something new. I really had no idea about starting on the back first. So, now after a thousand or so posts later, I finally learned something. There's hope for all of us if we're only persistent. Thanks guys, I really did learn a valuable lesson here. Now , the next line of questioning is for you Ken. Do you have any Japanese chisels? If so, what kind and do you notice any difference flattening the backs of those chisels due to the hollow in the back? Also, what do you think is a good container for holding the wet stones while sharpening? I've got a million questions, it never ends. It's my hope that others are reading this and learning. Obviously, there are people on ths forum who are extremely knowledgeable and thankfully willing to share that knowledge. Thank you gentlemen.
Steve

Hi Guys,

As a general rule, when you deal with a bad shaped chisel or plane iron that has a belly on it's back you can always return it, any serious seller or manufacturer would change it or return your money. In my case the Lie-Nielsen that has a small belly which I truly believe was a very isolate accident, I choose to still flatten it and keep it because I wanted to see how it works and I wasn't willing to wait for exchanging it even thought Lie-Nielsen offered me to change to tool or return me the money.

Ionut

Hi Steve

For your question "what do you think is a good container for holding the wet stones while sharpening?"

Have a look at this from Lee Valley.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071)

Dan

Thanks Dan,
Not cheap, but I like it.
Steve

Ionut,
So, you got the back flat, how do you like the steel?
Steve

Steve,
I claim no guru status with chisels.  I will gladly share what I do know.  I own one Japanese chisel.  It's a "bachi nomi" (a fishtail chisel).  It's also a very recent purchase from the Japan Woodworker.  Ernie Conover recommend it in his classes and dovetail book.  (It's a very good book, and should also be part of your personal library.)  It is used for cleaning out the sockets of half blind dovetails.  I bought the 5/8" size.  You should only need one size.

I think Japanese chisels are very fine tools. I would suggest you purchase a half inch size chisel and use it alongside of your western chisels.  That will give you "seat of your pants" experience at minimal cost.  After a while you will either decide to buy more or stick with your present chisels.  The hollow back should expedite flattening.

As I posted earlier, my workaday chisels are a set of Stanley 60 "butt" chisels.  They have served me well.  Along the way, I added a set of Marples blue chips (now Irwin).  I don't know if they are stellar, but I have no complaints.

My prized chisels are a set of Stanley 750s I inherited from my grandfather.  To this set I very recently added a Lie-Nielsen 5/16" bevel chisel.  I like the size and balance of the Lie-Nielsen chisels.  They are very well made, and have interchangeable handles.  (By the way, all the bevel edge chisels up to 3/4" share the same handle size, a welcome change from the Stanleys.)

I suspect the A2 steel of the Lie-Nielsens won't hold an edge quite as long as Japanese chisels.  I like the feel and balance, and with a Tormek, more frequent touch up are not a problem.  While I appreciate the Japanese chisels, I guess I am a traditional Yankee woodworker.

Somewhere I read a suggestion to buy 1/2" chisels and try them.  I think that's a good idea.  Your hands will let  you know which kind fits you and your work.  Having a couple spare very sharp 1/2" chisels ready to go in the middle of a project won'd hurt you, either.

Don't skimp on the flattening time.  I am quite experienced in how not to flatten chisels.  I spent many hours flattening mine with oilstones.  Then I wore through much of my 1000 grit water stone.  I should have started with the 220 tone.  (20-20 hindsight)  Now if the chisel is not flat, I now use the side of the Tormek wheel and do final polishing with the water stones.  The Tormek does the hard work.

By the way,  I sent you post in the hand tool part of the forum.  I think this thread needs to migrate to hand tools.  (It is interesting.)

Ken