Sharpening for a better burr

[Ken S]

Thanks for the kind words, Doug.

Herman's HK-50 small knife tool is an example of what can be more easily accomplished on the forum than by Tormek AB.  Shortly after Herman introduced his jig, Tormek introduced their small knife tool. Both are useful tools. In my opinion, the well equipped knife sharpener should have and be fluent with both.

The Tormek small knife tool is innovative and more in line with traditional Tormek thinking. The knife is firmly held by the tool. Grinding is carefully controlled and accurate. It does a very good job of sharpening small knives.

With Herman's jig, the knife rests on a platform. The quality of the grind is more dependent upon the operator's skill. However, Herman's jig is far more versatile. He has even used it to sharpen a machete.

The Tormek small knife tool performs its intended function very well. I do not believe the full potential of Herman's jig has been realized. The Tormek in skilled hands is versatile enough for both jigs to be useful, and there is room to grow. I would not have imagined the Tormek jig, and I do not believe Tormek would have ever produced Herman's jig.

I have been amazed with some of Tormek's newer jigs. The TNT (touch and turn) concept for turning tools is very clever. The DBS-22 drill bit jig is amazing. The EZYlock shaft is a real advance in efficiency. In order for the Tormek to continue in its prominent position, both versatility and basic efficiency must advance. The Tormek will not grow with the impression of being a slow "fiddly" machine. We are starting to see what the combined efforts of this forum can produce. I find that exciting, and am pleased to be a part of the process. I encourage more of us to post.

Ken

[Jan]

Very clever, Jan. I think it is fascinating how this idea started in the Netherlands with "Dutchman" (Ton's) mathematical tables; came across the Atlantic where it was simplified; and is returning back across the ocean for you to add another dimension of precision while preserving the simplicity. I believe this certainly shows the value of this forum.

Your template(s) remove the "hit or miss" element in placing the knives in the jigs. With the proper knife projection in the jig; the right distance between the universal support and the grinding wheel; and now the ideal position of the knife in the jig, precise bevels should be the order of the day and easily obtained.

We are making progress.
Ken

Thank you for your kind word, guys. Thank you Ken, for your apposite comment. 

The figure below shoes that the Knife Tip Setting Template is also capable of setting larger knifes.



The survival knife above does not have the same edge angle along the entire length of the blade.

Jan

P.S.: Thirty degrees edge angle would be probably too narrow angle, which will not provide strong and durable edge for this type of knife.

[Ken S]

More good work, Jan. Mr. Euclid would be pleased!

Incidentally, I should mention that "my magic 139 mm" is a length which just happened to work well using the Tormek knife jigs (and small knife tool) with my three most used kitchen knives. The kenjig is designed to be a set up aid in the most basic terms for new Tormek users who want to sharpen basic kitchen knives. It can also be used by more advanced users who desire or need more efficient set up procedures.

This particular configuration of the tool was never intended to be a universal tool. As you correctly note, your survival knife requires a more substantial bevel angle. When I made up the present version of the kenjig, I made eight. The bandsaw was set up. Making twenty or fifty would have been no problem. In hindsight, I wish I had made up more.

We can use Dutchman's tables to make additional tools. However, with the survival knife the easiest way is probably just fitting the knife in the jig. Use a black marker to set the bevel angle. Make up a new jig using the newly obtained distance between the support bar and the grinding wheel. (This is your new "magic number" for your survival knife. Scribe the distance from the knife jig's adjustable stop and the knife edge on the jig. The jig should be labelled with the knife description, bevel angle and knife jig used.

I can see where a busy knife sharpener could quickly need several kenjigs to support a variety of knives. I also believe the present version of the kenjig may not be the "final" version. I welcome evolving improvements.

Whether one uses one or six of these jigs, the principle is the same. The goal is repeatable and accurate set up with a minimum of "fiddliness". (Sorry, Jan, I do not think you will find fiddliness in any English dictionary. I first heard Alan Holtham talk about things not being fiddly. I just happen to like the word.)

Ken

[SharpOp]

 It's there, Ken.

I think it's used a bit more loosely than this definition.  If I have to "fiddle" with it, it's fiddly whether it's small or not.


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/fiddly

fiddly
adjective UK    US    /ˈfɪd.li/ UK informal       

› difficult to do because the parts involved are small:

Repairing a watch is a very fiddly job.
I hate painting the fiddly bits in the corner.

_and_


fiddle (about) with sth)
— phrasal verb with fiddle UK    US    /ˈfɪd.l̩/ verb
       
› to make small changes to something to try to make it work:

Stop fiddling about with your hair - it looks fine.

Someone's been fiddling around with my computer!


› to touch or move things with your fingers because you are nervous or bored:

He was just fiddling around with the things on his desk.

[Jan]

Thank you Ken for you kind response. 

Thank you Doug for your help with "fiddliness" 

Some other dictionaries offer less useful explanation: "The quality of being fiddly". 

Jan

[Jan]

In the Czech language we have a word "fidlovacka", which is a name for an old shoemaker tool for smoothing leather. In the figure below it is shown as No.15.



Jan

[Herman Trivilino]

Rob, Radio Shack went out of business here in the US several months ago. Those laser pointers can be purchased many places, though.

[Elden]

Rob, Radio Shack went out of business here in the US several months ago.

http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/

   From this, it appears that local stores didn't shut down. I know ours didn't. Sounds like the online is to be brought back.

[Ken S]

The impression I have is that Radio Shack recently closed a number of its stores to improve its financial balance. For many years a bread and butter part of its business was selling telephone sets, allegedly not to be connected to the leased phone line. (Tariffs were set up as "point to point", meaning that all equipment was to be leased.) With deregulation, tariffs were amended to be just to the house, and this lucrative quasi legal market subsided. Today they are into cel phones, a very competitive area, and have struggled financially.

Ken

[Jan]

I have bought red line laser module with adjustable focus. I have paid 8 USD, but at ebay I saw similar modules for some 2 or 4 USD only. The power is only 5 mW, which means it can be supplied from 3V battery for reasonable time.

In the picture below you can see how I have attached the laser module to my T7. First I bent 12 mm (1/2 ") threaded rod and inserted it in the horizontal sleeve of the universal support base. Then I used laboratory right angle clamp and flask clamp. The laser module is inserted into 12 mm (1/2 ") hole drilled in a circular disc, which is hold by the flask clamp.

It was easy to align and focus the laser line on the grind stone. The stability of the line, when the motor is running, is OK.

Jan

[Ken S]

Clever, Jan. We may actually be seeing a prototype of the Tormek 27!

Going back to your drawings, especially the one of the survival knife:  If we are able to determine a projection length of the knife in the jig and the distance from the universal support to the grinding wheel, we can make up a knife setting tool for the knife. Then, using your drawing, if we are able to locate where the knife should be inserted into the jig, we should be able to note the measurement from the side of the jig to the tip of the knife. We could mark that distance on the other side of the knife setting tool. The drawing would assist us in making another fixed dimension with the knife setting tool. Set up time would be even more efficient. We would just need to use the set up tool designated for that knife.

Ken

[Jan]

Yes Ken, you are correct. 

I attach a second photograph of the T7 with the red line laser module. In this photo the clamps are more visible.

Jan

[Herman Trivilino]

Keeping the edge in contact with the grindstone at the same place is a clever aid, but I hope people aren't thinking it's sufficient for maintaining a bevel angle.

[SharpOp]

No, it's not sufficient by itself, Herman.

But, if I have a projected guideline at a point on the grindstone where holding the knife in a position that naturally feels "level" to me produces a bevel angle of around 18 degrees, say . . . it's a couple of good-sized steps toward sufficiency.   

I did the same thing Jan did, yesterday.  It was easier for me because I had the Bosch laser level to which I posted a link.  Universal support in vertical position, slide on SVD-110 tool rest, clamp laser level to tool rest and adjust.  Kinda overkill for the application, of course, and it would be more elegant to have a focusable laser with an "angle assistant" mounting, but this one puts a very handy, seriously bright line or lines on the grindstone.

I have photos, but I see I need to put them on a server somewhere to share here.  I'll get on that.

I like the laser line.  My old eyes really like it.  It's higher tech than I prefer, but it may be OK to use a bit of high tech to sharpen hand tool edges on a slow wet grinder.   

I'll let someone else play with laser development.  I want to take the one I have and pair it with Herman's knife jig (with a little more clearance between the jig and the stone).

To be clear, the scenario I'm thinking of is essentially farmers market sharpening and variations on that theme.  In the "hybrid" versions of that scenario, as taught by Steve and discussed above by Ken, the Tormek's job might be put a primary bevel on (overwhelmingly) working kitchen knives.  We have to move right along, here, so we won't refine or hone on the Tormek.  Our primary bevel needs to be compatible with the next steps and meet our standards for accuracy and consistency.

I'd like to see if some combination of freehanding and the assistance of aids such as your platform style knife jig and projected laser lines on the stone can produce acceptable and reliable results.

~Doug

[SharpenADullWitt]

On the other end of the spectrum we have members like Steve Bottorff. Steve has run a very busy farmer's market sharpening service for many years. Sharpening over a hundred knives during a Saturday morning, plus scissors and garden tools is typical for Steve's business. Steve uses the Tormek as a key component of his business, however, with that much sharpening to do in a short amount of time, the pedestrian Tormek technique will not handle the load in a profitable business manner.

In the middle we have members typified by our fairly new member, Bob. Bob has started a specialized knife sharpening business in his area dealing with restaruants. At this stage, a typical Saturday might involve sixteen knives, and Bob hopes to grow the business. Bob is at the stage where an efficient Tormek technique is profitable for his business.  The Bobs of the forum are one of the target groups for this discussion. For the beginning businesses like Bob's, the main benefit is efficiency. If a more efficient technique allows Bob to sharpen more knives on a Saturday, while still maintaining his very high standards, the business will be more profitable and have a better chance of growing.These techniques are not for cutting corners. They are for delivering a high standard of quality in a more efficient manner.

I don't know if the 90 RPM Tormek can ever compete with 3450 RPM machines purely on speed. However, the jigged water cooled grinding of the Tormek has other advantages no high speed grinder has. If we can cut down the redundant set up time to improve the speed of operation of the Tormek, the Tormek person will be able to function competitively in more professional areas. The Tormek by itself may never be able to match the speed of a hybrid technique with several machines at a farmer's market. I do believe a more efficient technique will make more business opportunities competitive for the Tormek only or principally Tormek sharpener. I believe discussion on this forum can promote that goal and that we will all benefit from it.

Ken

Actually, from what I read of Bob's posts, I think he is more of a specialized (requiring other equipment), then Steve Bottorff's.
I'd love to see how well Steve's video covers serrated knives; and that would benefit Bob.  But some stuff I read Bob say, either tends to be sharpened on the machine (slicer blades), or would have to be done free hand, in which case I would LOVE to see video's on that.  (things like a Hobart S blade or any of their other specialized meat grinding equipment)