Tormek Community Forum

Here is a video on how to use the Tormek knife jigs from the horizontal support to get a larger exit burr.
https://youtu.be/NXwQms8-A5g

Excellent post, Steve. Very informative and it shows how the Tormek can be used in different ways.

Be sure and catch Steve's sharpness testing you tube.

Ken

   Excellent material, Steve.
   I noted with great interest  the point about pivoting the knife as well as lifting the handle. It makes perfect sense that the point of contact between the knife edge and the grinding wheel should be maintained at the same line (point) on the grinding wheel after Steve pointed it out. That explains why the bevel becomes more blunt at the knife tip when the handle is lifted without the pivoting motion.
   Thanks Steve for the answer!

   Steve's video about "Sharpening Knives With Inside Curves" is should be watched item.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KrhZULmd18g

Quote from: kb0rvo on July 22, 2015, 07:40:39 AM
I noted with great interest  the point about pivoting the knife as well as lifting the handle. It makes perfect sense that the point of contact between the knife edge and the grinding wheel should be maintained at the same line (point) on the grinding wheel.

I agree. That's an excellent point that I had not considered.

". . .  the point about pivoting the knife as well as lifting the handle."

Yup.  And this point is one that has been flubbed a bit by more than one demonstrator/instructor.  Steve does the best job I've seen of describing and demonstrating the technique required to produce a uniform bevel.

Agreed.  If Tormek did not want some pivot, why would they have put a radius on the knife jig instead of making it flat?

Ken

You are correct, Ken.  :)

Tormek handbook does not explicitly use the word pivot, but from the figures it is clear that the knife is pivoted.

The last sentence below the figure should read: "Raise and pivot the knife handle when grinding the tip of the knife."

Jan

Well done, Jan.

Ken

Quote from: kb0rvo on July 22, 2015, 07:40:39 AM
I noted with great interest  the point about pivoting the knife as well as lifting the handle. It makes perfect sense that the point of contact between the knife edge and the grinding wheel should be maintained at the same line (point) on the grinding wheel after Steve pointed it out. That explains why the bevel becomes more blunt at the knife tip when the handle is lifted without the pivoting motion.

You are correct, Elden.  :)

Correct montage of the knife in the knife jig is necessary condition for grinding the same edge angle along the entire blade.

Before grinding a knife I always check whether the tip of the properly pivoted knife touches the grindstone at same line as the straight part of the blade.

If the tip of the pivoted knife is below or above the line, I adjust the knife position in the jig according to Tormek handbook instructive figures.

Jan

   Thanks Jan. I see what you are referring to. It appears that one could work with the knife that is clamped near to the handle as long as the line of contact remained the same. One would have to be more careful to not go above the line. The third picture definitely shows the preferred mounting. The second obviously would not allow an even bevel to be ground. Thanks again for the tips, Jan.

Edit
   After more thought on my comments, I am not sure that clamping near the handle would be workable. Even though the point of contact remained at the line,  I do not think the handle could be lifted high enough to keep the bevel angle from becoming too small as illustrated in Jan' s first picture. I reckon it is time for me to go actually try it on the Tormek instead of talking theoretically!  :)

You are welcome, Elden.  :)

Jan

Another excellent post, Jan. Your posts illustrate how easy it is to become complacent and overlook good basic technique.

Ken

Thank you, Ken.  :)

It is really a pleasure for me to participate in discussions on this forum. The fast response time helps me to be sure that my opinions are not biased.

Jan

P.S.: Additionally, I'm still trying to improve my English. Thanks for your indulgence.

Quote from: Jan on July 24, 2015, 07:38:14 PM
The last sentence below the figure should read: "Raise and pivot the knife handle when grinding the tip of the knife."

Exactly.

I think your English is coming along just fine, Jan!   :)

Jan,

Alas, I believe our feeble English language has become the standard language for the world. Your English is fine, and your thoughts are interesting.

Ken

Doug and Ken, thanks for your appreciation.  :)

Jan

Jan,

The three knife jig position drawings you post give me a question. Is the jig placed equidistantly between the tip of the knife and where the blade joins with the handle of the knife. If not equidistant, perhaps there is a proportion which could be measured and replicated. If so, that would make obtaining a consistent bevel less hit and miss. Thoughts?

Ken

Ken, you are asking a very good question.  :)

The knife jig is generally not placed equidistantly between the tip of the knife and where the blade joins with the handle of the knife, despite the fact that it can sometimes happen.

For grinding the same edge angle at the tip and at the straight part of the blade we have to mount the knife so, that the distance between the place where the tip of the pivoted knife touches the stone and the rounded margin of the jig's stop is the same as the distance between the place where the straight part of the blade touches the stone and the jig's stop.
The length of the red line should be the same as the length of the blue line in the figure below.

The requirement for equality of lengths of the red and the blue lines may often not be met exactly. Usually I start with mounting position based on distances measured between the thumb and index finger.

Jan

Quote from: Ken S on July 26, 2015, 04:20:59 PM
If not equidistant, perhaps there is a proportion which could be measured and replicated. If so, that would make obtaining a consistent bevel less hit and miss. Thoughts?

It depends on the angle at the tip. If you have butcher knife with lots of curvature at the tip it's different from a pocket knife blade that has very little curvature at the tip.

Jan's equidistant red and blue lines is a scheme consistent with what Jeff taught us.

I agree with the notion, and am happy to have learned from this discussion, that a combination of lifting and pivoting is required.

Fully agreed, Herman!

Thanks for your confirmation that my thoughts, concerning knife pivoting, are in compliance with Jeff's lessons.  :)

Jan

Jan, I think this is a good idea which could benefit from further refinement. Using your photo, I want to try drawing a marker line in the center of the wheel where the flat part of the knife edge meets the grinding wheel. Then, without turning the Tormek on, go through the lift and pivot motion and see if the tip ends up on the center mark. This would show both if the tip was hitting the same line and also the same center spot on the wheel.I believe this would efficiently increase the consistency of the bevel angle.  Thoughts?

Ken

Yes Ken, I fully agree with your intention.  :)

I would like to draw your attention to one tiny thing. Strictly speaking, the procedure under discussion should ensure the same bevel angle only for the straight part of the blade and the point of the blade tip. It is significant improvement, which is worth of further refinements.

Nevertheless, there is no guarantee concerning the consistency of the bevel angle along the the curved part of the blade (e.g. blade belly). Fortunately for common blade shapes this difference is not significant.

Jan

Jan,

I will accept any improvement that I can get in precision and efficiency....and hope for more. I do believe this is worth exploring. Consistency in bevel angle is one of the strong pointsof the Tormek; let's maximize it.

Ken

   If the same line (point) of contact with the grinding wheel is maintained, I would think any edge angle variation would be a miniscule amount. If you are into free handed grinding, how perfect of a angle do you consistently achieve?

   By the way Jan, I imagine your English is better than mine. :)

Yes Elden, you are correct!  :)

When I find some time I will try to estimate the size of the edge angle variation caused by the fact that some part of the blade bally occurs above the same line of contact with the grindstone.

What concerns my English, I am preparing my posts offline in MS Word and use spellcheck to avoid spelling mistakes.  ;)

Jan

Quote from: Ken S on July 27, 2015, 10:12:12 PM
Jan,

I will accept any improvement that I can get in precision and efficiency....and hope for more. I do believe this is worth exploring. Consistency in bevel angle is one of the strong pointsof the Tormek; let's maximize it.

Ken

Ken, I think it will be an easy task for you to design a modified knife setting jig. :)

Your modified jig may be wider and will probably display circular arc with the centre at the rounded corner of the Tormek knife jig stop. The arc radius will be equal to your magic length of 139 mm.

Using fig.5 from your knife setting jig documentation, your modified jig will have to ensure that the lengths of the red and the blue lines are equal.

Jan

   For purpose of clarity, I am going to use the term "line of contact" to refer to the line where the straight portion of the knife edge contacts the grinding wheel. Steve  referred to it as a point. I am going to abbreviate "line of contact" to "LOC".
   As it has been said, the "LOC" can be physically scribed on the grinding wheel when it is at rest. When the grinder is switched on, the scribed "LOC" becomes only a line (location) retained in your memory. The straight portion of the knife edge shows us where the"LOC" is located while the grinding wheel is in motion. Jan has shown how to mount the knife so that the the knife point meets the "LOC".
   While grinding the belly of the knife, we have to rely upon our memory retention of where the "LOC" is located. This is while using the standard Tormek knife jigs. Free hand grinding would cause one to retain the "LOC" in memory the entire time. Steve has shown a good way to obtain it initially (see his book Sharpening Made Easy or his informative web site, sharpeningmadeeasy.com).
   If we strive to keep the knife edge at  the "LOC" while grinding the edge (the belly included), it would appear to me, a consistent bevel angle can be achieved.

Use of a laser pointer to locate the LOC (or Point of Contact) seems overkill to me, however, there may be some simple solutions. I think it is worth exploring.

Ken

Quote from: kb0rvo on July 28, 2015, 09:40:24 PM
   For purpose of clarity, I am going to use the term "line of contact" to refer to the line where the straight portion of the knife edge contacts the grinding wheel. Steve  referred to it as a point. I am going to abbreviate "line of contact" to "LOC".
   As it has been said, the "LOC" can be physically scribed on the grinding wheel when it is at rest. When the grinder is switched on, the scribed "LOC" becomes only a line (location) retained in your memory. The straight portion of the knife edge shows us where the"LOC" is located while the grinding wheel is in motion. Jan has shown how to mount the knife so that the tip meets the "LOC".
   While grinding the belly of the knife, we have to rely upon our memory retention of where the "LOC" is located. This is while using the standard Tormek knife jigs. Free hand grinding would cause one to retain the "LOC" in memory the entire time. Steve has shown a good way to obtain it initially (see his book Sharpening Made Easy or his informative web site, sharpeningmadeeasy.com).
   If we strive to keep the knife edge at  the "LOC" while grinding the edge (the belly included), it would appear to me, a consistent bevel angle can be achieved.

I agree with you? Elden!  :)

I have only a minor comment concerning bevel angle consistency.

To keep the edge angle the same along the entire blade is possible only in free hand grinding regime.

When we use Tormek knife jig, with the knife mounted so that the tip meets the LOC, than the belly of the pivoted knife edge usually goes beyond the LOC. This means that the belly has slightly smaller edge angle.

Jan

What we need is a LOC marking which will not disappear when the motor is running. I tried punching a small hole into a piece of blank white paper and holding it beneath the LED light I keep by my Tormek. The paper was translucent enough to still light the grinding wheel. The hole allowed a bright circle in the middle of the wheel, our Point LOC. My set up is just a crude prototype, but, with refinement, it should solve the problem. It gives us an easily visible point instead of having to rely on our memories.

Ken

   That is a good idea, Ken!

   Jan, I have not set the Tormek up yet to actually see what you are describing in regard to the belly. I will take your word for it. One of these days, hopefully I will get around to doing it. I have been concentrating on keeping the garden going.

OK, Elden.

Please do your experiments and let us know about your findings.

Jan

Quote from: Ken S on July 28, 2015, 10:08:30 PM
Use of a laser pointer to locate the LOC (or Point of Contact) seems overkill to me, however, there may be some simple solutions. I think it is worth exploring.

Ken

Ken, it is a very good idea to use a laser pointer to locate the LOC.  :)

My drill press is equipped with laser cross and it works fine. Red cross hair laser with adjustable focusing would be perfect solution for our experiments.

Jan

Good thought, Jan.

Ken

Chaps for your information, Maplins (or radio shack in the States) sell an inexpensive laser for about £15 which you can mount on a home made retort stand for all manner of useful functions. A friend in my turning club used one in a jig he made that maps the tip of the hollowing tool when deep inside a hollow form so you know where you're cutting. Might be useful in your suggested application

Clever idea, Rob.

I must admit this is starting to sound like one of my ideas which is great in theory, but perhaps of limited value in the real world. The idea of marking the middle spot on the wheel was originally just to give us an idea of where to position the knife in the jig. We can certainly do that while the Tormek is not running. (For safety, we have to do that.)

Interesting thoughts, guys. keep up the good thinking.

Ken

I'm sat in hospital again with my youngest after surgery. Bored bored bored. There's only so much Ludo you can play before your mind collapses!

Rob, our thoughts and best wishes are with your son, you, and your family. if you are really bored, you might try translating the forum into English. That would be appreciated by members like Elden and me who only speak the western hemisphere dialect.

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on July 27, 2015, 10:12:12 PM
Jan,

I will accept any improvement that I can get in precision and efficiency....and hope for more. I do believe this is worth exploring. Consistency in bevel angle is one of the strong pointsof the Tormek; let's maximize it.

Ken

I would like to share with you prototype of my tool entitled Knife Tip Setting Template. This template should allow easy knife mounting into SVM-45 knife jig, in a way that ensures the same bevel angle at the straight part of the blade and the blade tip. My approach is based Ken's Knife Setting Jig formerly known as KS-150. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bye-818SN85DdzB3bU9aUU81eTg/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bye-818SN85DdzB3bU9aUU81eTg/view?usp=sharing)

So, the template is designed for 30 degree combined bevel angle, 250 mm grindstone diameter and Ken's magic length of 139 mm for the jig plus knife length. The distance from the support bar to the grindstone should be 80 mm.

The figure below shows the correct mounting position of the knife into knife jig SVM-45.

First, the knife jig is aligned between the two vertical lines and the jig stop is aligned with the horizontal line at the bottom of the template.

Second, the length of the knife jig plus knife is aligned with blue horizontal line at the top of the template.

Third, the knife tip is aligned with the circular arc shown in red.

Jan

Very clever, Jan. I think it is fascinating how this idea started in the Netherlands with "Dutchman" (Ton's) mathematical tables; came across the Atlantic where it was simplified; and is returning back across the ocean for you to add another dimension of precision while preserving the simplicity. I believe this certainly shows the value of this forum.

Your template(s) remove the "hit or miss" element in placing the knives in the jigs. With the proper knife projection in the jig; the right distance between the universal support and the grinding wheel; and now the ideal position of the knife in the jig, precise bevels should be the order of the day and easily obtained.

We are making progress.

Ken

Great ideas Rob and Jan!

Brilliant thread!  Great ideas and sharp thinking, all of you.

Jan said: "Red cross hair laser with adjustable focusing would be perfect solution for our experiments."

It sure would.  And it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Investigating . . .

  ~Doug

P.S. A quick look at Google and Amazon suggests there are lots of possibilities with off-the-shelf stuff.  For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-GLL-Self-Leveling-Cross-Line-Laser/dp/B00NQUJ2AK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438214081&sr=8-1&keywords=bosch+gll2
(http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-GLL-Self-Leveling-Cross-Line-Laser/dp/B00NQUJ2AK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438214081&sr=8-1&keywords=bosch+gll2)

Bosch GLL 2 Self-Leveling Cross-Line Laser Level with Mount
by Bosch

Price:   $79.00 & FREE Shipping. Details

In Stock.

Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

Horizontal and vertical line modes - projects two lines independently or together for a wide array of level and/or alignment applications

One button operation makes it easy select between horizontal, vertical, and cross line modes or turn the tool on/off

Flexible mounting device conveniently clamps to multiple surfaces for quick and easy setup

Smart pendulum leveling system - self-levels, senses and indicates out-of level condition; switch slider to lock for transport

For those of you who may be wondering about the direction of this topic, please allow me to offer my opinion.

There is a whole spectrum of members on this forum. At one end, we have people like me. I have, what Herman ably calls, "a sharpening hobby".  For me, a busy sharpening session might be four knives or a few chisels. The standard Tormek instruction videos, as done by Jeff Farris, are more than adequate for my needs. Jeff's well honed technique ably produces fine results when a few tools need to be sharpened.

On the other end of the spectrum we have members like Steve Bottorff. Steve has run a very busy farmer's market sharpening service for many years. Sharpening over a hundred knives during a Saturday morning, plus scissors and garden tools is typical for Steve's business. Steve uses the Tormek as a key component of his business, however, with that much sharpening to do in a short amount of time, the pedestrian Tormek technique will not handle the load in a profitable business manner.

In the middle we have members typified by our fairly new member, Bob. Bob has started a specialized knife sharpening business in his area dealing with restaruants. At this stage, a typical Saturday might involve sixteen knives, and Bob hopes to grow the business. Bob is at the stage where an efficient Tormek technique is profitable for his business.  The Bobs of the forum are one of the target groups for this discussion. For the beginning businesses like Bob's, the main benefit is efficiency. If a more efficient technique allows Bob to sharpen more knives on a Saturday, while still maintaining his very high standards, the business will be more profitable and have a better chance of growing.These techniques are not for cutting corners. They are for delivering a high standard of quality in a more efficient manner.

I don't know if the 90 RPM Tormek can ever compete with 3450 RPM machines purely on speed. However, the jigged water cooled grinding of the Tormek has other advantages no high speed grinder has. If we can cut down the redundant set up time to improve the speed of operation of the Tormek, the Tormek person will be able to function competitively in more professional areas. The Tormek by itself may never be able to match the speed of a hybrid technique with several machines at a farmer's market. I do believe a more efficient technique will make more business opportunities competitive for the Tormek only or principally Tormek sharpener. I believe discussion on this forum can promote that goal and that we will all benefit from it.

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on July 30, 2015, 02:00:48 AM
The Bobs of the forum are one of the target groups for this discussion. For the beginning businesses like Bob's, the main benefit is efficiency. If a more efficient technique allows Bob to sharpen more knives on a Saturday, while still maintaining his very high standards, the business will be more profitable and have a better chance of growing.These techniques are not for cutting corners. They are for delivering a high standard of quality in a more efficient manner.

It can hardly be said better than that.

And I think it's quite possible that the jigs under development in this discussion, and/or a laser line on that 90 rpm stone, might make a big difference to Bob, and to me, among many others.  As I've said, fiddly per-knife setup is a major issue for anyone considering using the Tormek to sharpen knives commercially.

  ~Doug

Thanks for the kind words, Doug.

Herman's HK-50 small knife tool is an example of what can be more easily accomplished on the forum than by Tormek AB.  Shortly after Herman introduced his jig, Tormek introduced their small knife tool. Both are useful tools. In my opinion, the well equipped knife sharpener should have and be fluent with both.

The Tormek small knife tool is innovative and more in line with traditional Tormek thinking. The knife is firmly held by the tool. Grinding is carefully controlled and accurate. It does a very good job of sharpening small knives.

With Herman's jig, the knife rests on a platform. The quality of the grind is more dependent upon the operator's skill. However, Herman's jig is far more versatile. He has even used it to sharpen a machete.

The Tormek small knife tool performs its intended function very well. I do not believe the full potential of Herman's jig has been realized. The Tormek in skilled hands is versatile enough for both jigs to be useful, and there is room to grow. I would not have imagined the Tormek jig, and I do not believe Tormek would have ever produced Herman's jig.

I have been amazed with some of Tormek's newer jigs. The TNT (touch and turn) concept for turning tools is very clever. The DBS-22 drill bit jig is amazing. The EZYlock shaft is a real advance in efficiency. In order for the Tormek to continue in its prominent position, both versatility and basic efficiency must advance. The Tormek will not grow with the impression of being a slow "fiddly" machine. We are starting to see what the combined efforts of this forum can produce. I find that exciting, and am pleased to be a part of the process. I encourage more of us to post.

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on July 29, 2015, 09:41:49 PM
Very clever, Jan. I think it is fascinating how this idea started in the Netherlands with "Dutchman" (Ton's) mathematical tables; came across the Atlantic where it was simplified; and is returning back across the ocean for you to add another dimension of precision while preserving the simplicity. I believe this certainly shows the value of this forum.

Your template(s) remove the "hit or miss" element in placing the knives in the jigs. With the proper knife projection in the jig; the right distance between the universal support and the grinding wheel; and now the ideal position of the knife in the jig, precise bevels should be the order of the day and easily obtained.

We are making progress.
Ken

Thank you for your kind word, guys. Thank you Ken, for your apposite comment.  :)

The figure below shoes that the Knife Tip Setting Template is also capable of setting larger knifes.

(http://img23.rajce.idnes.cz/d2303/11/11662/11662961_154b127859a75fd0e4c34b43d800ec69/images/Template_2.jpg?ver=0)

The survival knife above does not have the same edge angle along the entire length of the blade.

Jan

P.S.: Thirty degrees edge angle would be probably too narrow angle, which will not provide strong and durable edge for this type of knife.

More good work, Jan. Mr. Euclid would be pleased!

Incidentally, I should mention that "my magic 139 mm" is a length which just happened to work well using the Tormek knife jigs (and small knife tool) with my three most used kitchen knives. The kenjig is designed to be a set up aid in the most basic terms for new Tormek users who want to sharpen basic kitchen knives. It can also be used by more advanced users who desire or need more efficient set up procedures.

This particular configuration of the tool was never intended to be a universal tool. As you correctly note, your survival knife requires a more substantial bevel angle. When I made up the present version of the kenjig, I made eight. The bandsaw was set up. Making twenty or fifty would have been no problem. In hindsight, I wish I had made up more.

We can use Dutchman's tables to make additional tools. However, with the survival knife the easiest way is probably just fitting the knife in the jig. Use a black marker to set the bevel angle. Make up a new jig using the newly obtained distance between the support bar and the grinding wheel. (This is your new "magic number" for your survival knife. Scribe the distance from the knife jig's adjustable stop and the knife edge on the jig. The jig should be labelled with the knife description, bevel angle and knife jig used.

I can see where a busy knife sharpener could quickly need several kenjigs to support a variety of knives. I also believe the present version of the kenjig may not be the "final" version. I welcome evolving improvements.

Whether one uses one or six of these jigs, the principle is the same. The goal is repeatable and accurate set up with a minimum of "fiddliness". (Sorry, Jan, I do not think you will find fiddliness in any English dictionary. I first heard Alan Holtham talk about things not being fiddly. I just happen to like the word.)

Ken

 It's there, Ken. :)

I think it's used a bit more loosely than this definition.  If I have to "fiddle" with it, it's fiddly whether it's small or not.


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/fiddly (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/fiddly)

fiddly
adjective UK    US    /ˈfɪd.li/ UK informal       

› difficult to do because the parts involved are small:

Repairing a watch is a very fiddly job.
I hate painting the fiddly bits in the corner.

_and_


fiddle (about) with sth)
— phrasal verb with fiddle UK    US    /ˈfɪd.l̩/ verb
       
› to make small changes to something to try to make it work:

Stop fiddling about with your hair - it looks fine.

Someone's been fiddling around with my computer!


› to touch or move things with your fingers because you are nervous or bored:

He was just fiddling around with the things on his desk.

Thank you Ken for you kind response.  :)

Thank you Doug for your help with "fiddliness"  :)

Some other dictionaries offer less useful explanation: "The quality of being fiddly".  :-\

Jan

In the Czech language we have a word "fidlovacka", which is a name for an old shoemaker tool for smoothing leather. In the figure below it is shown as No.15.

(http://img15.rajce.idnes.cz/d1503/11/11662/11662961_154b127859a75fd0e4c34b43d800ec69/images/Fidlovacka.jpg?ver=0)

Jan

Rob, Radio Shack went out of business here in the US several months ago. Those laser pointers can be purchased many places, though.

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on July 31, 2015, 02:37:15 AM
Rob, Radio Shack went out of business here in the US several months ago.

http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/

   From this, it appears that local stores didn't shut down. I know ours didn't. Sounds like the online is to be brought back.

The impression I have is that Radio Shack recently closed a number of its stores to improve its financial balance. For many years a bread and butter part of its business was selling telephone sets, allegedly not to be connected to the leased phone line. (Tariffs were set up as "point to point", meaning that all equipment was to be leased.) With deregulation, tariffs were amended to be just to the house, and this lucrative quasi legal market subsided. Today they are into cel phones, a very competitive area, and have struggled financially.

Ken

I have bought red line laser module with adjustable focus. I have paid 8 USD, but at ebay I saw similar modules for some 2 or 4 USD only. The power is only 5 mW, which means it can be supplied from 3V battery for reasonable time.

In the picture below you can see how I have attached the laser module to my T7. First I bent 12 mm (1/2 ") threaded rod and inserted it in the horizontal sleeve of the universal support base. Then I used laboratory right angle clamp and flask clamp. The laser module is inserted into 12 mm (1/2 ") hole drilled in a circular disc, which is hold by the flask clamp.

It was easy to align and focus the laser line on the grind stone. The stability of the line, when the motor is running, is OK.

Jan

Clever, Jan. We may actually be seeing a prototype of the Tormek 27!

Going back to your drawings, especially the one of the survival knife:  If we are able to determine a projection length of the knife in the jig and the distance from the universal support to the grinding wheel, we can make up a knife setting tool for the knife. Then, using your drawing, if we are able to locate where the knife should be inserted into the jig, we should be able to note the measurement from the side of the jig to the tip of the knife. We could mark that distance on the other side of the knife setting tool. The drawing would assist us in making another fixed dimension with the knife setting tool. Set up time would be even more efficient. We would just need to use the set up tool designated for that knife.

Ken

Yes Ken, you are correct.  :)

I attach a second photograph of the T7 with the red line laser module. In this photo the clamps are more visible.

Jan

Keeping the edge in contact with the grindstone at the same place is a clever aid, but I hope people aren't thinking it's sufficient for maintaining a bevel angle.

No, it's not sufficient by itself, Herman.

But, if I have a projected guideline at a point on the grindstone where holding the knife in a position that naturally feels "level" to me produces a bevel angle of around 18 degrees, say . . . it's a couple of good-sized steps toward sufficiency.   ;)

I did the same thing Jan did, yesterday.  It was easier for me because I had the Bosch laser level to which I posted a link.  Universal support in vertical position, slide on SVD-110 tool rest, clamp laser level to tool rest and adjust.  Kinda overkill for the application, of course, and it would be more elegant to have a focusable laser with an "angle assistant" mounting, but this one puts a very handy, seriously bright line or lines on the grindstone.

I have photos, but I see I need to put them on a server somewhere to share here.  I'll get on that.

I like the laser line.  My old eyes really like it.  It's higher tech than I prefer, but it may be OK to use a bit of high tech to sharpen hand tool edges on a slow wet grinder.   :)

I'll let someone else play with laser development.  I want to take the one I have and pair it with Herman's knife jig (with a little more clearance between the jig and the stone).

To be clear, the scenario I'm thinking of is essentially farmers market sharpening and variations on that theme.  In the "hybrid" versions of that scenario, as taught by Steve and discussed above by Ken, the Tormek's job might be put a primary bevel on (overwhelmingly) working kitchen knives.  We have to move right along, here, so we won't refine or hone on the Tormek.  Our primary bevel needs to be compatible with the next steps and meet our standards for accuracy and consistency.

I'd like to see if some combination of freehanding and the assistance of aids such as your platform style knife jig and projected laser lines on the stone can produce acceptable and reliable results.

~Doug

Quote from: Ken S on July 30, 2015, 02:00:48 AM

On the other end of the spectrum we have members like Steve Bottorff. Steve has run a very busy farmer's market sharpening service for many years. Sharpening over a hundred knives during a Saturday morning, plus scissors and garden tools is typical for Steve's business. Steve uses the Tormek as a key component of his business, however, with that much sharpening to do in a short amount of time, the pedestrian Tormek technique will not handle the load in a profitable business manner.

In the middle we have members typified by our fairly new member, Bob. Bob has started a specialized knife sharpening business in his area dealing with restaruants. At this stage, a typical Saturday might involve sixteen knives, and Bob hopes to grow the business. Bob is at the stage where an efficient Tormek technique is profitable for his business.  The Bobs of the forum are one of the target groups for this discussion. For the beginning businesses like Bob's, the main benefit is efficiency. If a more efficient technique allows Bob to sharpen more knives on a Saturday, while still maintaining his very high standards, the business will be more profitable and have a better chance of growing.These techniques are not for cutting corners. They are for delivering a high standard of quality in a more efficient manner.

I don't know if the 90 RPM Tormek can ever compete with 3450 RPM machines purely on speed. However, the jigged water cooled grinding of the Tormek has other advantages no high speed grinder has. If we can cut down the redundant set up time to improve the speed of operation of the Tormek, the Tormek person will be able to function competitively in more professional areas. The Tormek by itself may never be able to match the speed of a hybrid technique with several machines at a farmer's market. I do believe a more efficient technique will make more business opportunities competitive for the Tormek only or principally Tormek sharpener. I believe discussion on this forum can promote that goal and that we will all benefit from it.

Ken

Actually, from what I read of Bob's posts, I think he is more of a specialized (requiring other equipment), then Steve Bottorff's.
I'd love to see how well Steve's video covers serrated knives; and that would benefit Bob.  But some stuff I read Bob say, either tends to be sharpened on the machine (slicer blades), or would have to be done free hand, in which case I would LOVE to see video's on that.  (things like a Hobart S blade or any of their other specialized meat grinding equipment)

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on August 01, 2015, 12:59:01 AM
Keeping the edge in contact with the grindstone at the same place is a clever aid, but I hope people aren't thinking it's sufficient for maintaining a bevel angle.

Herman, you have made a very important remark!  :)

I agree with you and Doug, generally it's not sufficient condition for maintaining a bevel angle.

From grinding practice we know, that we have to pivot the knife as well as lift the handle.

Nevertheless in same cases lifting the handle is not necessary. Imagine for example a semi-circle shoemaker's knife (shown in reply # 50 of this thread). Also the Mora knife shown on my photographs above, requires only slight lift of the handle.

Do you think it is possible to formulate geometrical assumptions under which we can maintain constant bevel angle without lifting the handle?

Jan

Quote from: SharpOp on August 01, 2015, 03:11:33 AM
No, it's not sufficient by itself, Herman.

But, if I have a projected guideline at a point on the grindstone where holding the knife in a position that naturally feels "level" to me produces a bevel angle of around 18 degrees, say . . . it's a couple of good-sized steps toward sufficiency.   ;)

I did the same thing Jan did, yesterday.  It was easier for me because I had the Bosch laser level to which I posted a link.  Universal support in vertical position, slide on SVD-110 tool rest, clamp laser level to tool rest and adjust.  Kinda overkill for the application, of course, and it would be more elegant to have a focusable laser with an "angle assistant" mounting, but this one puts a very handy, seriously bright line or lines on the grindstone.

I have photos, but I see I need to put them on a server somewhere to share here.  I'll get on that.

I like the laser line.  My old eyes really like it.  It's higher tech than I prefer, but it may be OK to use a bit of high tech to sharpen hand tool edges on a slow wet grinder.   :)

I'll let someone else play with laser development.  I want to take the one I have and pair it with Herman's knife jig (with a little more clearance between the jig and the stone).

To be clear, the scenario I'm thinking of is essentially farmers market sharpening and variations on that theme.  In the "hybrid" versions of that scenario, as taught by Steve and discussed above by Ken, the Tormek's job might be put a primary bevel on (overwhelmingly) working kitchen knives.  We have to move right along, here, so we won't refine or hone on the Tormek.  Our primary bevel needs to be compatible with the next steps and meet our standards for accuracy and consistency.

I'd like to see if some combination of freehanding and the assistance of aids such as your platform style knife jig and projected laser lines on the stone can produce acceptable and reliable results.

~Doug

Congratulations, Doug!  :)  I agree with you.

I am eager to see your photographs!

You have written: "I like the laser line.  My old eyes really like it. ".

I like the bright red laser line on the grindstone, also. It is really great look at the T7 with this extension. If I wanted to be sentimental and exaggerate, I would say that it reminds me of Moses when he saw the Promised Land. I apologize for the clumsy wording, perhaps you understand what I mean.  :)

Jan

I like the "old eyes" comment, also. Even for those with younger eyes, developing a technique less dependent upon frequent remeasurement of the same thing lessens the chance of error. My original motivation for exploring the "knife" setting tool was improved repeatability rather than speed. As a side note, the "knife" part started out as an aid for sharpening chisels.

I don't know if the use of a laser line will end up part of the generally used technique or not. It is possible it will be part of the process along the way. I have a couple prototypes of what is now the "kenjig". I keep them as a reminder of these things being an evolutionary process. Prototypes are important.

Let's keep evolving!

Ken

Quote from: Jan on August 01, 2015, 12:20:49 PM
Do you think it is possible to formulate geometrical assumptions under which we can maintain constant bevel angle without lifting the handle?

I think you've already covered this, Jan. Keeping the blue line and the red line equal in length is the necessary condition. But it will require no lifting if and only if the curvature of the blade is the arc of a circle. If it has some other shape, such as a parabola, then lifting will be required to keep the edge on the same point of the grindstone. This will, to a good approximation, maintain a constant bevel angle. If instead you use a platform you avoid all of this fuss and produce a constant bevel angle for any concave shape.

Thank you Herman for your prompt answer.  :)

I needed to hear your opinion, because my knowledge of space geometry is no more so good to be able to derive it on paper.  :(

Jan

Because the original topic of this thread started by Steve is "how to use the Tormek knife jigs from the horizontal support to get a larger exit burr", I would like to show that the laser extension can also be used when grinding away from the edge.

In the picture below you can see that the same right angle bent threaded rod can be inserted in the vertical sleeve and the two laboratory clamps will allow to align the laser line on the grindstone.

The knife pivoting must be stopped, when the tip meets the line, otherwise we would grind a larger edge angle at the tip.

Jan

Excellent, Jan!

Your photos make clear an idea that occurred to me recently:  that laser line, once it's positioned at the right spot on the wheel, is something of a real-time knife-setting template/positioning guide for Herman's jig.

I've been avoiding setting up a web site for sharpening, but needing a space to host the photos I wanted to share here, I was forced to remember.  I just posted a couple to the waiting skeleton of the site:

http://www.sharpoperator.com/ (http://www.sharpoperator.com/)

Now I'll actually have to work on it.   :(

Jan, excellent idea switching to the vertical sleeve! First-rate photo, also.

I did some poking around with my Torlock jigs. Although Herman's use of the lower center of gravity scissors jig makes sense to me, I can also see where the regular flat platform jig could be fitted with a thicker platform. (approximately 1/12" or 40mm). That would bring the platform up to the level Steve uses for his freehand technique. It would present a flat (level) platform at the 1 1/2" marked distance from the top dead center mark on the grinding wheel.

I do not know if this would or would be a good idea. It would serve as "training wheels" until someone became comfortable with trying freehand sharpening and possibly a bridge between freehand and jigged sharpening.

Doug: Nice website. I will be following it.  I googled the quote at the bottom. One possibility posed a question and had two possible answers, a furniture store and a credit card company. That struck me as really funny; the world is a marketing op! So, which is the correct translation, buying more furniture or adding yet another credit card? ;D

Keep up the good work, guys. There is much improvement in numbers!

Ken

Quote from: SharpOp on August 02, 2015, 01:18:37 AM
Excellent, Jan!

Your photos make clear an idea that occurred to me recently:  that laser line, once it's positioned at the right spot on the wheel, is something of a real-time knife-setting template/positioning guide for Herman's jig.

I've been avoiding setting up a web site for sharpening, but needing a space to host the photos I wanted to share here, I was forced to remember.  I just posted a couple to the waiting skeleton of the site:

http://www.sharpoperator.com/ (http://www.sharpoperator.com/)

Now I'll actually have to work on it.   :(

Yes, Doug, I agree with you.  :)

The major guidance, the laser line can provide, is definitively for freehand sharpening.

Thank you for providing the link to your laser extension photographs. You have found clever and efficient laser mounting. Our approaches are de facto very similar.

Jan

Quote from: Ken S on August 02, 2015, 01:58:25 AM
Jan, excellent idea switching to the vertical sleeve! First-rate photo, also.

I did some poking around with my Torlock jigs. Although Herman's use of the lower center of gravity scissors jig makes sense to me, I can also see where the regular flat platform jig could be fitted with a thicker platform. (approximately 1/12" or 40mm). That would bring the platform up to the level Steve uses for his freehand technique. It would present a flat (level) platform at the 1 1/2" marked distance from the top dead center mark on the grinding wheel.

I do not know if this would or would be a good idea. It would serve as "training wheels" until someone became comfortable with trying freehand sharpening and possibly a bridge between freehand and jigged sharpening.

Thank you for your kind words, Ken!

Some sketch or link would help me to understand better your intentions concerning the "flat (level) platform".  :)

Jan

The photograph below shows, how difficult it is to maintain consistent bevel angle along the entire length of the blade. The knife is correctly mounted into knife jig. This ensures the same bevel angle for the straight part of the blade and for the tip. The belly of the pivoted knife meets the stone beyond the laser line. This means that the belly will have slightly smaller edge angle than the rest of the blade.

In Ken's terminology, to maintain consistent bevel angle, we would need "a bridge between freehand and jigged sharpening".

Jan

Jan,

You are quite correct; a photo or drawing would be much easier to follow. I will work in that. In the meantime, the link is to a recent posting on the Tormek General part of the forum. The last photo shows a piece of wood clamped to the Torlock jig. In this case, the platform is oriented for the side of the wheel. If you can imagine a shorter piece of wood with an angled end to match the wheel profile located to be centered with the wheel, that is what I mean. By adding thickness, the wood platform could be placed at the height recommended by Steve and kept level. That would allow the knife to lay flat and be at the correct grinding bevel.

I will work on some photographs. Below is a link.

Ken


http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/kb0rvo/media/Kens%20Tormek%20side%20grinding%20platforms/KSTormekjig7_zpsftebqrq9.jpg.html

Thank you Ken, for your explanation and for providing the link to your inspiring photographs. Now I understand better what do you intend.

Jan

This would be a fine time for grepper to post his digital Tormek again.  :)

Ken

Quote from: Jan on August 02, 2015, 02:30:19 PM
The photograph below shows, how difficult it is to maintain consistent bevel angle along the entire length of the blade. The knife is correctly mounted into knife jig. This ensures the same bevel angle for the straight part of the blade and for the tip. The belly of the pivoted knife meets the stone beyond the laser line. This means that the belly will have slightly smaller edge angle than the rest of the blade.

(Excellent photo illustration here.  Great work, Jan!)

In Ken's terminology, to maintain consistent bevel angle, we would need "a bridge between freehand and jigged sharpening".

Exactly.

I think combining the laser line with a version of Herman's platform "jig" -- a version set up for grinding off the edge -- may be one way to build such a bridge.

Quote from: Ken S on August 02, 2015, 01:58:25 AM
. . . I can also see where the regular flat platform jig could be fitted with a thicker platform. (approximately 1/12" or 40mm). That would bring the platform up to the level Steve uses for his freehand technique. It would present a flat (level) platform at the 1 1/2" marked distance from the top dead center mark on the grinding wheel.

Yes.  This is exactly what I've been playing with.

I don't really see this arrangement as a "training wheels" procedure, Ken.  Mostly, that's because I don't think very many people would ever get to the point of grinding as accurate a bevel fully freehand as could be produced using a tool rest and a laser guide line.  Certainly not in our farmers market scenario, with endless variations in knife size and pattern and at least a couple of different primary bevels needed routinely.  I know some sharpeners who tend to think they are as accurate freehand as when jigged, but they are almost always wrong about that.

I think the SVD-110 tool rest is probably the most appropriate base for this.  I've ordered a spare to dedicate to the research.

Now, we need a height-adjustable version of Herman's tool rest knife jig.

Ken, the mystery text is just leftover "greeking" (in Latin) from the default placeholder page when I activated the website.  See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeking).

~Doug

Doug,

I just made some photos of a primitive but workable prototype which includes height adjustment.  I agree about this being more than just training wheels. For many users it might be a  permanent solution. For others it might be the bridge which helps them develop the necessary muscle memory. Either way, I believe it is worth pursuing.

I will email the photos and ask another member to post them. I am an old hand with film cameras, including wooden view cameras and in the darkroom, however, this Neanderthal fumbles with photobucket.

Ken

(http://[url=http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/sphotos3/media/DSC_0497_zpsnedp7jyg.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/sphotos3/DSC_0497_zpsnedp7jyg.jpg)[/URL][/img]

(http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k506/sphotos3/DSC_0497_zpsnedp7jyg.jpg) (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/sphotos3/media/DSC_0497_zpsnedp7jyg.jpg.html)

Quote from: SharpOp on August 02, 2015, 01:18:37 AM
Your photos make clear an idea that occurred to me recently:  that laser line, once it's positioned at the right spot on the wheel, is something of a real-time knife-setting template/positioning guide for Herman's jig.

It may actually be easier and faster to use the Angle Master. The laser line may be more precise if that's an issue.

Ken S. sent these images to me and asked me to post them.

(grepper sez:) Cool idea!  Simple and quick version of the famous Herman's tool rest.

(http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/grepper00/Ken_zpsxuqqcsjy.png)

Thanks, Mark, (grepper) for posting the photos for me. I must become digitized someday.

The photos show how the SVD-110 platform jig can be used with no alteration. Ionut used a clamp for his small knife jig. Herman's more finished jig is certainly more permanent in construction. Ionut designed his jig for very small knives, the original purpose for the jig. Herman thinks more broadly.

Please note that one of the reasons my jigs are so primitive is that they are often prototypes and quickly replaced. Making a prototype early in the planning stages helps weed out unworkable ideas. The photographs were made this afternoon and already I have a couple new ideas. The knockabout construction is to quickly illustrate the idea.

The extra thickness of this jig was to bring up the platform surface to a level where it would encounter the eighteen degree mark recommended by Steve and remain in a level position. This level position keeps the knife flat while being sharpened. This allows a bridge between using the Tormek knife jigs and freehand sharpening. I do not believe this bridge is an ideal solution. A knife well secured in a jig should have a more consistent bevel and the person who can do a fine job of freehand sharpening is far more skilled. The bridge is a compromise. While not as precise as using a jig, setup is much faster. While not developing operator skill to the extent as a skilled freehand sharpener, the bridge allows a sharpener of lesser skill to produce workmanlike results.

Some design parameters:

The platform, at least the top part, should be no wider than the width of the grinding wheel.This is already established with Herman's small knife jig. This allows the full length of a knife blade to be sharpened from either side of the wheel.

The height of the platform should be quickly adjustable to compensate for different bevel angles and the wear of the grinding wheel. I believe the most practical solution for this is to make the platform in layers. The top layer should be simple. It will be the layer most exposed to water an should have some water repellent finish.

As shown in the photographs, there are two layers of cardboard beneath the wood. These are shims to being the platform up to proper level. Ideally one would not need such shims with better construction. However, shims could be devised to compensate for the heart of the stone. The thickest shim would be for the full diameter. Progressively thinner shims would be for the wheel when reduced by use. The shims should be carefully marked with the wheel diameter.

Interchangeable inner pieces could be made up and marked for different bevel angles. Steve's recommended eighteen degree primary bevel for kitchen knives should certainly be the first one. A second one could be designated for hunting knives.

The manner of securing the thickness pieces to the platform jig can be settled in different ways. My first jigs were drilled and tapped. The platforms are secure, however, my machining skills are lacking. If I was working at a place like a farmer's market where the public regularly viewed my set up, I would redo the jigs and have the work done by a machine shop in order to look professional.

A simple clamp works adequately. In fact, I would recommend beginning with a clamp. You can always add a bolt.If using a bolt, I would recommend a carriage bolt with a wing nut or something similar beneath the Tormek platform. The angle changing shims could even be U shaped to allow quicker changes.

Please note the marked top line and eighteen degree line on the stone, as described by Steve in both his book and DVD.

Also to be noted is the use of the SB-250 blackstone. I mounted it on my Tormek this weekend to begin another attempt to make nice with it. My initial results were disappointing. I hope to find that the stone works fine with my increased knowledge. Time will tell, and I will post the results.

I purchased a second scissors jig (used) this last week. I will convert it into one of Herman's HK-50 jigs. I happen to like the Tormek small knife tool. I think the jig we are developing here will be useful. Herman's jig is not eclipsed by either. I like to have options.

Ken

(http://www.tormek.com/Users/kenschroeder/Pictures/Photos%20Library.photoslibrary/Thumbnails/2015/08/02/20150802-163559/tdc9%hI3QaqTW8mQrElKFA/thumb_DSC_0911_1024.jpg)

Thank you Ken for posting recent photographs of your jig prototype.  :)

The figures are illustrative and very inspiring. There is beauty in simplicity!

Thanks also for the detailed description, which facilitates consideration of this solution. Please let us know in future how the jig works.

I am sure your jig would benefit from the laser line on the stone.

Jan

Thanks, Jan.

I will certainly post progress reports. I have the feeling that whatever more finished version I might build at this point will eventually be considered another prototype.That seems to be the Tormek way. I found an earlier version of the anglemaster on Ebay. I almost bought it as a curiosity. It is the WM-100. For its time, it was a clever idea. It is now totally overshadowed by the much improved present anglemaster, the WM-200. The original diamond truing tool has also been superseded by the much improved present version. The present version, drawing upon the micro adjust feature of the latest version of the universal support allows very controlled fine grinding with a screw drive.

I have posted my belief that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg with Herman's HK-50. A raised platform for Herman's jig with a clearance area for very short chisels is only the first adaptation of the jig. I think more will surface as we encounter more areas in need of improvement.

One of the things which has fascinated me with the Tormek is its combination of simplicity and versatility. Simple knife sharpening combined with laser technology. Amazing! I have thought that the technology of sharpening turning tools was more advanced than other areas with the Tormek. I still feel that way, however, knife sharpening is quickly closing the gap. There is an old saying that many hands make light work. I also believe that many minds make better work.

I look forward to seeing what develops.

Ken

Ken, because I do not have Steve book or DVD, I would like ask you, whether there exist some web page where the flat platform concept is described.

I have probably saw it somewhere in the past, but I have lost the link.  :(

Jan

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on August 03, 2015, 02:57:49 AM
It may actually be easier and faster to use the Angle Master. The laser line may be more precise if that's an issue.

Easier and faster to use the Angle Master to repeatedly, individually, set the bevel angles of successive knives than to set the laser level (and/or a version of your platform jig) once for everything-at-18-degrees (or something like that -- most kitchen knives)?

I think we might have a disconnect here, cuz I don't understand how that could be.  What did I miss?   :-\

  ~Doug

Quote from: Jan on August 03, 2015, 05:18:40 PM
. . . . because I do not have Steve book or DVD, I would like ask you, whether there exist some web page where the flat platform concept is described.

I think Herman's video provides a pretty thorough introduction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWAkQmoU8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcWAkQmoU8c)

~Doug

Thank you Doug, for providing the link.  :)

I know Herman's video, what I had in my mind were some geometrical considerations similar to booklet Grinding Angle Adjustment by Ton Nillesen (Dutchman).

Meanwhile I understood the how the "dead centre mark on the grinding wheel" concept works. It's a wonderfully simple but effective. Hats off. Really nice application of a well-known geometrical theorem.

Jan

Jan,
   Check out Steve's website.   On it you will find links to five chapters that I believe are from his book Sharpening Made Easy. It is free material. It not discussing the platform concept as I remember, but is good material to read.

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/

Thank you Elden for your tip. :)

Meanwhile I have found the forgotten web page. May be you know it. I have found there many useful information. The link is: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/grinder.html

Jan

Quote from: SharpOp on August 02, 2015, 05:49:03 PM

I think the SVD-110 tool rest is probably the most appropriate base for this.  I've ordered a spare to dedicate to the research.

Now, we need a height-adjustable version of Herman's tool rest knife jig.

Doug, Ken, maybe I have a proposal for you, how to assemble height-adjustable version of Herman's tool rest knife jig. Use two wedges made of (hard)wood.

Use of wooden wedges for a similar purpose, is mentioned in a chapter "Another angle setting jig" on the following www page http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/grinder.html#drop

Jan

Quote from: SharpOp on August 03, 2015, 06:06:52 PM
Easier and faster to use the Angle Master to repeatedly, individually, set the bevel angles of successive knives than to set the laser level (and/or a version of your platform jig) once for everything-at-18-degrees (or something like that -- most kitchen knives)?

I think we might have a disconnect here, cuz I don't understand how that could be.  What did I miss?   :-\

I can set the platform to an 18 degree angle quickly and easily using the Angle Master. Once that's done I can sharpen as many knives as I want at an 18 degree bevel never again needing to measure anything.

Quote from: Jan on August 03, 2015, 10:14:30 PM
Doug, Ken, maybe I have a proposal for you, how to assemble height-adjustable version of Herman's tool rest knife jig. Use two wedges made of (hard)wood.

Good idea and good link, Jan.

To build the laser/platform jig combination I had in mind, we'd need some largish wedges.  :)

(http://www.sharpoperator.com/uploads/5/7/5/8/57583949/368376_orig.jpg)

Not too large for practicality, though, I think.

  ~Doug

Point very well taken, Herman. In our attempt to convert an efficient handheld sharpening set up to a method assisted by a platform, we have overlooked the benefit of just using the platform (HK-50) as is. The reason for Steve choosing the eighteen degree position is to be able to hold the knife blade in a flat position. This makes sense as an aid to handholding.

Sharpening knives handheld is definitely fast in skilled hands. I believe "the bridge" offers some benefits for those of us who do not have finely honed manual sharpening skills. Does being able to position the knife in a horizontal position as opposed to being at an angle offer any advantage? I put this as a question because I don't have an answer at this point.  Thoughts?

Again, good thought, Herman.

Ken

Interest thought, Jan and Doug.

Ken

   Holding an object (flat side of a knife in this case) parallel with the floor, is more easily accomplished than guessing at a certain number of degrees. The method Steve B showed in Sharpening Made Easy, then required  bringing the knife down the circumference of the wheel to the appropriate mark drawn on the wheel.
   My mind comprehends parallel and perpendicular to the floor more easily than 15, 18, 20 degrees or other angles. However through the years, I have formed  fair perception of the 59° angle used for grinding most drill bits. So I guess it comes to what one becomes accustomed to doing.

In the final analysis, all the freehand techniques are simply down to the muscle memory that is developed through practice.  There is just no substitute.  Follow the suggested guidance with inexpensive knives bought from a flea market or similar for a dollar a piece and grind them until they're gone.  Try it at 45 degrees, try it perpendicular.  Grind off the edge all together and then re-establish it.  My point is that by grinding at the 2 outer extreme angles, your mind and muscles will develop an intuitive understanding of the total scope of angles.  As you focus down into the range that's actually useful from pairing to chopping it will become more like driving a car.  I was rubbish at grinding freehand until I started turning. The tools felt ham fisted in my hand and it was a miserable experience.  As I started using turning tools more and more, it necessitated doing unusual grinds to give odd shaped edges and angles for cutting the sides of boxes or doing dovetailed recesses for chucking points etc etc.  The skills to hold the tools carefully and steadily come and come surprisingly quickly.

I would really encourage people to ditch the fear of freehanding and indeed begin the experience (with cheap knives) fully expecting to be rubbish but still to persevere for an entire afternoon one weekend if possible.  Or spend an evening doing nothing but grinding.  The skill does come quickly when you keep at it and boy does it save a lot of faff and setup time!

The other thing turning has taught me is try not to get too worried about your angles being spot on.  The truth is it just doesn't matter, the thing will still cut!  Professional turners work to a tolerance of +/- 5 degrees....yes that much and guess what....their arms simply adjust imperceptibly to have the tool work correctly anyway.  Now of course I appreciate a knife isn't the same as a bowl gouge but I do believe that the principle is the same which is to say we get terribly wound up and stress about the precision of the angle when in fact a target range of angles is almost always good enough.  Obviously we need to exclude precision edges like salon scissors from this...I'm talking kitchen knives etc.

But have a go, put the necessary miles in to learn to drive and I promise you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.  This really isn't rocket science :-)

Quote from: kb0rvo on August 04, 2015, 06:46:15 AM
   Holding an object (flat side of a knife in this case) parallel with the floor, is more easily accomplished than guessing at a certain number of degrees.

I agree with you, Elden.  :)

Today we have had a hot day here, so I decided to spend it in the shop which is fortunately situated in the basement. The hot weather enabled me to build a prototype of a flat, height-adjustable platform for Herman's knife jig. The laser line extension is of course there!

In the image below you can see how it was assembled. I used massive steel square, drilled two holes for M12 (1/2")  bolts, which anchored this support into the vertical sleeves. I added one low nut as a micro adjust.  Then I bolted small steel plate to the longer arm of the steel square. This plate can serve as horizontal tool rest.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Flat_platform_laser.jpg?ver=0)

Herman's knife jig was made of aluminium strip of 1/8 " thickness. Its edge was grinded on a belt sander to some 20 degrees. Herman's knife jig rests on plywood block to provide some clearance for sharpener's hands.

The red laser line on the wheel is adjusted for grinding 18 degrees angle. The horizontal distance between the edge of the Herman's knife jig and the wheel may be as low as 0.04"

The whole jig can be flipped over to enable grinding away from the edge.  ;)

Jan

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on August 04, 2015, 03:03:30 AM

Quote from: SharpOp on August 03, 2015, 06:06:52 PM
Easier and faster to use the Angle Master to repeatedly, individually, set the bevel angles of successive knives than to set the laser level (and/or a version of your platform jig) once for everything-at-18-degrees (or something like that -- most kitchen knives)?

I think we might have a disconnect here, cuz I don't understand how that could be.  What did I miss?   :-\

I can set the platform to an 18 degree angle quickly and easily using the Angle Master. Once that's done I can sharpen as many knives as I want at an 18 degree bevel never again needing to measure anything.

Oh, I knew that, obviously.  Now I think I understand what you meant.

I'm not sure whether or not you can set the grinding point on the stone faster with the Angle Master than with a simple procedure (known or calculated position on circumference measured from TDC); or a template that does essentially the same thing (flexible strips marked in bevel angle degrees -- you can have several for varying stone diameter); or a bespoke Tormek grindstone protractor.  I doubt it, but it doesn't matter much, anyway, since it's only done once per bevel angle setting.

Brilliant, Jan.  A huge step toward a workable laserized version of Herman's platform knife jig.

And I just happen to have some spare steel squares.   :)

Thank you for your kind words and for your support, Doug!  :)

I'm glad, I was able to easily resolve two things at once. To build Herman's knife jig and also the flat, height-adjustable platform.

Jan

Very cool!  Great work, Jan.

Amazing how the Ionut/Herman/Ken/SharpOp/Jan thing is evolving.  Now with laser!

From the looks of things it won't be too long before:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2319.msg11271#msg11271

Thank you for your kind words, Grepper!

Your post from late last year was truly a visionary!  :)

Jan

Jan, you are quite the engineer!

Ken

Quote from: grepper on August 04, 2015, 08:24:01 PM
From the looks of things it won't be too long before:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2319.msg11271#msg11271

But we're getting laser assistance along with creative elegance like Jan's framing square  mount.  Definitely looks like best-of-class DIY culture to me.

Now, for a reservoir circulation, filtration and power-draining system using old aquarium components.  And/or a redesign of the water trough retention system.   ;)

How about temperature control? ;D

I want to thank you all for the recognition and support.  I appreciate it. :)

I think, my jig prototype, is the result of the collective efforts of this forum. The situation was mature, and it was by chance me, who made that step forward.

On this occasion, I would like to quote Antoine de Saint-Exupery "When by mutation a new rose is born in a garden, all the gardeners rejoice."

Jan

Great quote, Jan  I totally agree.

One of  the happy Tormek gardeners

excellent chaps...I had a good chuckle at that volley of posts. What a team :-)

Rob,

You might be interested in learning how the better burr for the Tormek originated.

Many years ago, Torgny's ancestor sailed to the United States to promote his new idea. He had invented a mouse powered wet grinder. It could be used where there was no stream to provide water power.

He was demonstrating this new wonder to a crowd of interested workmen and hobbyists in Cleveland. One of Steve's ancestors happened to be in the crowd and made the comment that he thought the machine would work better if the wheel turned away from the knife blade instead of into the blade. The wise Swede thought a minute, and then agreed. He opened the cage and turned the mouse around.

That is the true story of how the Tormek came to be bidirectional.

Ken

Yup. Great quote.

I would like to share with you my further step in finalizing the prototype of the height-adjustable flat platform. I realized, that for practical use, it is necessary to ensure smooth movement of the platform's knife rest towards the wheel. After a fruitless thinking how to do it in DIY mode, I decided, with a heavy heart  :-\, to sacrifice my Steel Marking Gauge Scale.

In the images below you can see, that I bolted the gauge's moving head stock to the steel plate attached to the main framing square mount. The gauge's head stock is supported by two short aluminium profiles to provide some clearance for sharpener's hands. The own aluminium knife rest was attached to the gauge's beam by two bolts.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Marking_gauge_2.jpg?ver=0)

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Marking_gauge.jpg?ver=0)

A locking screw can fix the sliding beam with the aluminium knife rest in the desired position. Moreover the iron beam supports the aluminium knife rest almost to the wheel. Not surprisingly, this gauge is characterized by great stiffness, squarness of sliding and high positioning accuracy.

So now I can start their own testing.

Jan

Quite a machine, Jan! It makes my jig seem Neanderthal.

I don't think the average Tormek user requires such precision, however, it is reassuring to know that such accuracy is within the range of a Tormek and a creative mind.

Good job,

Ken

Quote from: Ken S on August 06, 2015, 01:58:54 PM
Quite a machine, Jan!

Thank you, Ken.  :)

Quote from: Ken S on August 06, 2015, 01:58:54 PM
It makes my jig seem Neanderthal.

Oh no Ken, disagreed! Your, no cost, wooden flat platform is fully adequate for machete and farm tools sharpening, as example.  :)

Quote from: Ken S on August 06, 2015, 01:58:54 PM

I don't think the average Tormek user requires such precision, however, it is reassuring to know that such accuracy is within the range of a Tormek and a creative mind.
Good job,
Ken

My (mis)use of the Steel Marking Gauge  :-\ is kind of overkill for the application. I was considering it carefully, because marking gauge is a very useful tool for woodworking and metalworking also.

But you already know, that for the elegance of a solution I am ready to sacrifice a lot. Elegance, for me, implies beauty, simplicity and proportion. The idea may seem strange in technical disciplines, but on the contrary, it becomes essential in all fields. Symmetry might be the leading principle of the universe.

Jan

When using these platforms to sharpen a knife I find that the knife keeps lifting off the platform. The solution for me was to mount the platform on the other side of the machine so that the grindstone turns toward the platform rather than away from it.

Yes Herman, I know from your previous posts, that you prefer grinding towards the edge.  :)

Your opinion guided me to orient the prototype of my height-adjustable flat platform for grinding towards the edge, also. Maybe it's not good to see, but all the photographs above show my platform mounted for grinding towards the edge.

However, the whole platform can be quite easily flipped over, to enable grinding away from the edge.  ;)

Jan

Quote from: Jan on August 06, 2015, 03:12:46 PM
The idea [elegance] may seem strange in technical disciplines, but on the contrary, it becomes essential in all fields.

Absolutely.  Certainly, craft without elegance is, at best, boring.

Your solution, here, passes the elegance test with flying colors*, Jan.

~Doug

*English idiom that probably derives from something like "coming into port with colors flying."

http://bzin1.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/1/6/3216195/5972502.jpg (http://bzin1.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/1/6/3216195/5972502.jpg)

Thank you for your kind words Doug! I appreciate it!  :)
Moreover I have the opportunity to improve my command of English.

But testing of the platform prototype is still ahead of me, and it is known that the devil is in the details.

Jan

 So, we now are approaching square one or where Steve started. Using the Tormek knife jigs. Seems like Ken or someone speculated as to why Tormek probably wouldn't use the platform approach for knives. It may be called control. Yes, greater control is achieved when grinding into the edge versus grinding away from the edge with the platform.

   Steve's original post (video) was largely in regard to "grinding off the edge to create a larger exit bur". I missed his opening statement the first few times I watched the video. "When we want absolutely precise and good looking bevels, we use the Tormek and use the knife jig".

   I am not saying that platform is not a good working piece to have. However, Herman states "I find that the knife keeps lifting off the platform."  This was said in regard to grinding off the edge of the knife. I am not planning to get rid of the platform I have that is made from Ionut's and Herman's ideas.

   To get the larger exit bur Steve is referring to, one will have to grind off the edge.

   The Tormek knife  jigs insure that the knife does not ride up the wheel when grinding off the edge. The exception would be when doing the belly of the knife. By the way, practice is still required to obtain "absolutely precise and good looking bevels".


Jan, great job. I like that you made it so that you can grind either direction. Let us know how you get along grinding off the edge.

Quote from: kb0rvo on August 07, 2015, 11:54:14 PM
   Steve's original post (video) was largely in regard to "grinding off the edge to create a larger exit bur". I missed his opening statement the first few times I watched the video. "When we want absolutely precise and good looking bevels, we use the Tormek and use the knife jig".

I think we all agree.

The focus of this whole platform-jig/grinding-off-the-edge/little-help-from-the-laser group experiment has been rapid, preparation of working edges for kitchen knives in a setting like a farmers market.  I think the approach looks promising for meeting working-knife quality requirements, with practice and assuming a careful operator (one who cares).  I don't think it's going to win many bevel beauty contests.

Quote from: kb0rvo on August 07, 2015, 11:54:14 PM
  However, Herman states "I find that the knife keeps lifting off the platform."  This was said in regard to grinding off the edge of the knife.

Herman's right. There is a tendency for the stone to lift and pull the edge of the knife a bit.  With the knife riding more or less flat on a platform jig and not all that much bevel surface to pull against, I'm not experiencing major forces to resist or overcome.

Quote from: kb0rvo on August 07, 2015, 11:54:14 PM
By the way, practice is still required to obtain "absolutely precise and good looking bevels".

That's the truth.  The Tormek jigs permit more than enough freedom of movement for humans to make a mess of a knife.  Experimental knives to mess up should be part of every new sharpener's initial purchase.

~Doug

Interesting exchange of greatly similar views, Elden and Doug.
I greatly agree with your opinions, also!  :)

My first experience with the flat platform is, that the water flow is different from Tormek knife jig. Water collects on horizontal surfaces of the platform and drips where you least prefer. I will test whether the tilt shoes are able to solve this problem and direct the water back into the water trough. When this does not help, it will be necessary to install some water chute.

Jan

Quote from: SharpOp on August 08, 2015, 06:52:32 AM

With the knife riding more or less flat on a platform jig and not all that much bevel surface to pull against, I'm not experiencing major forces to resist or overcome.

Doug,
   Thanks for the reply. That is what I was hoping to hear from someone, that the lifting, climbing force is able to be overcome.

Jan,
   Thanks for your observations. I can see where that would make a mess. Please keep us updated as you continue using your platform.

Quote from: Jan on August 07, 2015, 12:52:27 PM
Yes Herman, I know from your previous posts, that you prefer grinding towards the edge.  :)

When I wrote that comment, Jan, it was in response to the wooden platforms I saw on a previous page. I hadn't seen the photos you had posted of your platform. It's well built, and a work of superb craftsmanship and inventiveness. I don't see, though, how you adjust the angle. It seems you could fashion a micro adjuster quite easily as you already have threaded bolts inserted in the universal support sockets.

Herman,

With this kind of jig, you don't need angle adjustment. The angle is adjusted by the position of the jig. The jig is designed to keep the knife flat. Steve explains in his book and DVD how to set the angle. Placing the blade flat at the top would be a zero degree angle. A quarter of the circumference would be a ninety degree angle. Splitting the ninety would be a forty five degree angle. Drawing two lines, one top dead center, and the other an inch and a half away is approximately eighteen degrees. Think of the wheel as a protractor.

The advantage of this system is that the knife is always help flat.

Ken

Quote from: Jan on August 04, 2015, 05:08:39 PM


In the image below you can see how it was assembled. I used massive steel square, drilled two holes for M12 (1/2")  bolts, which anchored this support into the vertical sleeves. I added one low nut as a micro adjust.  Then I bolted small steel plate to the longer arm of the steel square. This plate can serve as horizontal tool rest.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Flat_platform_laser.jpg?ver=0)

The whole jig can be flipped over to enable grinding away from the edge.  ;)

Jan

Herman, his first photo shows his micro adjust nut more clearly than the most recent photos.

Quote from: Herman Trivilino on August 09, 2015, 02:10:22 AM

Quote from: Jan on August 07, 2015, 12:52:27 PM
Yes Herman, I know from your previous posts, that you prefer grinding towards the edge.  :)

When I wrote that comment, Jan, it was in response to the wooden platforms I saw on a previous page. I hadn't seen the photos you had posted of your platform. It's well built, and a work of superb craftsmanship and inventiveness. I don't see, though, how you adjust the angle. It seems you could fashion a micro adjuster quite easily as you already have threaded bolts inserted in the universal support sockets.

OK, Herman, that clarifies your comment.
Thank you for your kind words concerning my platform prototype. I appreciate it.  :)

As already explained by Ken and Elden the flat platform height defines the bevel angle.

The simplest way is to mark the desired bevel angle on the side of the grindstone. Then you rotate the grindstone so, that one mark becomes the dead top center. The other mark defines the position where the flat knife rest edge (strictly speaking the knife edge) has to meet the stone.

The other method is based on measuring the circumference of the whole grindstone and calculating which part of it corresponds to the desired bevel angle. E.g.: for the grindstone circumference of 30" and the desired bevel angle of 18 degrees we get 1.5" arc length measured along the grindstone's edge (1.5" = 30" * 18deg / 360deg ).

I have crosschecked the accuracy of the 18 degrees bevel angle adjustment with the Tormek Angle Master. The result was satisfying, my reading of the WM-200 was 19 degrees.

Jan

P.S.: Herman, the above described bevel angle adjustment technique is not restricted to flat = horizontal platform configuration. It will work well with your steeply inclined knife rest, also!

Guys, I am sorry I do not have Steve's book or DVD, so I described how I adjusted the flat platform based on my knowledge of Euclidean geometry. I hope my considerations are not biased. Conducted cross-examination calms me down.  :)

In the sketch below you can see geometrical reasoning for the above described method for the (flat) platform adjustment. The height of the knife edge above the center of the grindstone defines the bevel angle beta.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/knife_jig_commented_1.jpg?ver=0)

Jan

P.S.:
The secant (shown in blue) corresponding to the central angle 2*beta has also large potential for angle/platform adjustment.  ;)

For simplicity, I've modified an image from the booklet by Ton Nillesen, where the blade is in the Tormek knife jig. The same applies when we are grinding freehand using the (flat) platform support.

Excellent work, folks!   When I saw Herman's question/comment about adjusting the platform angle, I thought "must draw or find others' drawings to explain."  Then I discovered that Ken and Jan (and maybe Steve in the sharpening school video) have already done all the 'splainin' required.

Herman, this approach to measuring and setting the bevel angle, based upon a blade held "level" (cross-section midlines parallel with the base plane of the grinder), is the one I've always found easiest to internalize.  Once I really got it, I realized that I could actually grind acceptable primary bevels freehand on many kitchen knives.

I had to refresh my memory of high school geometry and trigonometry (my math(s) is/are not as fresh as Jan's) to make sure I actually understood the procedure, but it feels at least as natural and intuitive as the AngleMaster.  ;^) 

  ~Doug

Thank you Jan for the fine illustration of edge angle.  Of course the same applies for freehand sharpening. Just hold the blade level X degrees from the top of the wheel and sharpen away.

You are welcome, Steve!  :)

I would like to ask you, why is longer exit burr better than a shorter one, when we afterwards remove the burr on the honing wheel anyway?

Jan

Larger means we detect it sooner, wasting less of the knife, assuming we check often during the sharpening process.

Reading Dutchman's tables, his thoroughness reminded me of the "Experiments on Knife Sharpening" by John D. Verhoeven
http://www.mrsoso.nl/bushcraft/knifeshexps.pdf

In his chapter "Experiments with the Tormek machine", honing on the chrome oxide loaded leather wheel produces 0.35 microns edge as shown by scanning electron microscope.
The human hair cuticle is about the same thick, and a blade that sharp whittles a human hair lengthwise.

For that sharpness, honing must be done under controlled blade angle, however, no prefabricated jig exists for honing knives on Tormek.  The Tormek universal support in horizontal position at the honing wheel has restricted working range, albeit enough for chisels, but not for longer blades like knives.
If you need a honing jig for knives, you have no choice but to make it yourself, and looking at Jan's last version of horizontal support, I see it as a prototype support for honing.

Just wonder if this approach is capable of bringing knife sharpness to this level?  - Diamaze-PSD-razor-blade-slicing-a-human-hair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNq4Oa1GwwE
;)

Quote from: stevebot on August 09, 2015, 11:45:08 PM
Larger means we detect it sooner, wasting less of the knife, assuming we check often during the sharpening process.

Thank you for the quick response, Steve! Now it gives me a good sense.  :)

Jan

Quote from: wootz on August 10, 2015, 12:43:15 AM

For that sharpness, honing must be done under controlled blade angle, however, no prefabricated jig exists for honing knives on Tormek.  The Tormek universal support in horizontal position at the honing wheel has restricted working range, albeit enough for chisels, but not for longer blades like knives.
If you need a honing jig for knives, you have no choice but to make it yourself, and looking at Jan's last version of horizontal support, I see it as a prototype support for honing.

Point well taken, Vadim!  :)

My design, of the height-adjustable flat platform, will work well with the honing wheel, also. Just double flip the main framing square mount.

Far more practical would be to extend my main framing square mount by another arm parallel with the side of the honing wheel. So we would get a new, U-shaped square mount. This would allow grinding and honing, away from the edge, without any complicated platform adjustment.

Jan

I find this post interesting and have followed it and I will add to this post that using the honing wheel freehand is easier than to sharpen freehand on the stone. The leather is very forgiving and gives a great edge, as long as you don't lift the blade to much and get a to steep angle so you round the edge.

With a platform you will/might bump into the stone with the tip or handle on chef's knives. Jan has an interesting idea about the U-form though.
Remember that the stone gets smaller during the years and the leather wheel stays the same.

When honing with the same ideas that are in this post, but freehand, and with a movement so you don't bump into the stone, the edge will get razor sharp.

Sharpening with the stones direction will give a longer burr and it takes longer time to hone but it's easier to feel with the fingertips.
Sharpening towards the stones direction has a bonus that you use the water to see that you are holding the knife flat on the stone and the stone don't get uneven as fast, and you don't need to true it very often. It is also a bit faster but needs some more practise and caution so the knife don't catches edge of the stone.

Best,
Stig

Thank you for you statement, Stig.  :)
Your highly relevant point is very well taken!

Your views are especially important for the thoughts, concerning the emerging  U-shaped framing mount for sharpening and honing, away from the edge, without complicated flat platform adjustment.

Jan

Good thoughts, Jan and Stig.

Steve,

Several posts have raised concern about the knife lifting while being sharpened with the wheel moving away from the knife. Should you please comment on this?

Thanks,

Ken

Quote from: Jan on August 09, 2015, 04:18:25 PM
The secant (shown in blue) corresponding to the central angle 2*beta has also large potential for angle/platform adjustment.  ;)

Note that the blue line need not be a level line. It is in this case because the platform is level. But all of the geometry works the same if the platform is not level. One way of understanding this is to imagine rotating the entire apparatus until the blue line (platform) is level. When you do that the bevel angle remains unchanged.

Yes, you are correct Herman, I fully agree!  :)

Jan

Today I have worked on a prototype of height adjustable flat platform for honing.

So far, I left the concept of universal U-shaped framing mount, which would allow both grinding and honing.

In the image below you can see my flat honing platform attached to the back side of the Tormek Tool Rest SVD-110. The platform was adjusted to 10 degrees bevel angle, what is the minimum angle my prototype currently allows. The adjustable angle red wedge is assembled of a steel construction kit elements.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Honing_platform_1.jpg?ver=0)

The red laser line is useful for honing also, because the honing wheel pulls the knife blade ahead, and it is important to know incessantly, where the edge should meet the honing wheel.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Honing_platform_2.jpg?ver=0)

The knife rest is of aluminium strip 2" x 1/8", its edge was grinded on a belt sander to some 15 degrees. The knife rest tapers towards the edge, where it has slightly smaller width than the honing wheel. Thin aluminum stripes are easy to cut with miter saw, if they are properly clamped.

The locking action of the Tormek Tool Rest is really admirable.  :)

Jan

P.S.: The platform is of course suitable for grinding away from the edge, also.

Before I go on vacation I would like to share with you images of my flat bidirectional grinding platform.  :)

I used the concept of T – shaped framing mount anchored into the vertical sleeves by two long M12 bolts. The beam of the platform consists of an L – shaped aluminium profile 2" x 1 1/4" x 1/8". The own aluminium knife rests are attached to movable beams of the "sacrificed" Steel Marking Gauge Scale. Laser module with a battery and a switch was installed in a square aluminium tube.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Flat_platform_101.jpg?ver=0)

You can see my flat honing platform, also. For honing longer knifes the flat bidirectional grinding platform must be dismounted. Thanks to the micro adjust on the M12 bolt, the angle setting is preserved. 

Using the principles described in this thread, I prepared simple scale for adjusting bevel angles for both grinding directions. The scale depends on the diameter of the grindstone and is in full agreement with Tormek Angle Master.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/Flat_platform_stupnice.jpg?ver=0)

The laser line helps to maintain consistent bevel angle.

Jan

   Looks nice Jan! Does the vertical threaded rod for the laser or the angle it is mounted on get in the way of the knife handle when grinding?

Thank you Elden, for your good question.  :)

You correctly noted that the threaded rod, which carries the laser module is not optimally positioned. That is because I wanted utilize an already existing ½" hole in the T – shaped steel framing mount. Nevertheless it remains enough space for the knife handle and the sharpener's hands.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/ELDEN_IMG_3889.jpg?ver=0)

Jan

Impressive!

Thanks, Fineline! The biggest challenge was the exact mounting of the knife rests. When both knife rests are exactly in line, against each other, then the adjustment of grinding angle is very simple and quick.

Jan

Jan, I have been away this past week. Great job!

Ken

   Jan, after looking more closely at your grinding setup, I am truely impressed with your work! Did you use a vertical mill for cutting the slots in the knife rests or improvise? How is the small square guide, located to the left of the knife rest, held in place on the knife rest angle support?

Thanks for your appreciation, Elden and Ken.  :)

My flat bidirectional grinding platform is one large improvisation. I misused a Steel Marking Gauge Scale. The picture below shows a disassembled knife rest.

(http://img21.rajce.idnes.cz/d2103/11/11709/11709430_28620584321cb814b04ba1648f79a5d3/images/DETAIL_KNIFE_REST.jpg?ver=0)

I bolted (4 bolts) the gauge's moving head stock to the holder attached to the main L-shaped aluminium beam. The own aluminium knife rest is attached to the shortened gauge's beam by two bolts. A locking screw (black) fix the sliding beam with the aluminium knife rest in the desired position. Moreover the inox beam supports the aluminium knife rest almost to the wheel.

Jan

Thanks, Jan, that clarifies things. I see why you say you sacrificed your marking scale when I saw the price of one!

wow this is getting to be rocket Science ehh