japanese waterstone

[Rob]

Return it John, they will take it back...they're a decent bunch

[Ken S]

With my "Cadillac product for a Cadillac price", I expect Cadillac service.  (Rolls Royce for your side of the pond) 

If the stone is not right, take it back for a refund.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I doubt that the fact that you trued it will make any difference.  If the vendor is reliable they they should take it back.  If they don't, take it up with Tormek.

[grepper]

When you first posted, I was surprised that the wheel could be 3mm-4mm out of round. I thougtht that would be unacceptable. 

My first post to this forum was due to wheel problems.  At that time I had no idea if what I was experiencing was normal or not.  But thanks to all of the good folks here, I soon determined that what I was suffering was not normal.  I returned the wheel.

Tormek support was exemplary. I had a new wheel in like three days.  No problems at all with the new wheel.

I don't know where you live, but you can find all the information you need, including who handles US Tormek warranty in the following post.  It was the first post I made here:

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1508.0

If you don't live in the US, your supplier should be able to tell you who to contact.

Really glad I did too.  Not only because I resolved my problem, but I got to meet all of the good folks here!

[Rob]

I've not had problems myself but all those who have have recounted the same excellent service fom Tormek

Which dealer did you buy it fom?

[jeffs55]

The first stone I got and it was not a Tormek stone wobbed badly in sideways plane. It was from Rockler or Woodworker or someone else, and they promptly sent me a knew one.

[Rob]

I have a theory about modern tool and machine dealers, the big ones at least.  In this day and age of forums and bulletin boards, plus of course feedback areas of online purchase engines, they can't afford to give bad service.....it would spread so fast, with the instant news nature of the Internet

Equally when good service has been given, that also spreads fast.

It was always the same before the Internet but just more slowly

[Ken S]

I realize the Tormek with the Japanese wheel can deliver mirror polish on the entire bevel of a chisel. 

My question is, in the real world of woodworking, does this shiny bevel actually cut better or longer than a well polished micro bevel?

Ken

[Rob]

Its another perfection frame issue isnt it Ken

I guess if you're hand cutting dovetails and you're charging top dollar for a commissioned piece or perhaps exhibiting then you might justify that level of perfection.  For my furniture, I could never justify it.

You know, I'd love to have the japanese stone just to try it and see for myself, but in practical every day life I would never spin off the wheel and mount that one, have to reset the jigs because its radius would always be different....just to polish.

If I had two Tormeks thats the only practical way I could see me actually doing that for each sharpening.  Even then you'd have to reset the jigs

[Ken S]

Good point, Rob.  If I was trying to impress people with my fine workmanship, mirror bevels would certainly do the trick.

I also agree that I would not want to change wheels midstream with each blade.

I don't think compensating for differences is wheel diameter would be a dig deal.  One reason the turning jigs work so well is by using standardized blade projection in the jigs.  The TTS-100 has three pre measured projection distance slots.  These distances are plugged into the settings.

I have been slowly developing a system of standardized projection lengths with plane and chisel blades.  I believe this standardization, in conjunction with the known difference in wheel diameters would simplify resetting.  I believe once the compensated USB distance was initially set, no further adjustments would be necessary.

A second Tormek is not on my short list, so it will be a while before I can develop this idea.

While the logical part of me realizes a mirror polished entire bevel is just for looks, it certainly does look very professional!  Maybe appearances matter more than function.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Maybe appearances matter more than function.

Certainly appearances do matter, and in some cases perhaps more than function.  One area is salesmanship.  But even in the area of professional workmanship appearances do matter.  When your workmanship looks better than it needs to be for function, it can lead to future business opportunities.  A professional workman needs to be always looking ahead to the next job.

[ionut]

There should be no difference between a full bevel polished and one with only a microbevel polished, if done in the same manner and in regards of how those edges would perform and of course if the microbevel would match the full bevel angle.
The microbevel is a sharpening shortcut and nothing more, it reduces the amount of polishing required due to the less surface to be polished and a bit steeper angle which ensures that the actual cutting edge is touched.  the back side of the coin when microbevel are used is the fact that the next sharpening session requires more steel removal to create a burr, which can be argued to be acceptable as this step is done with a medium stone anywhere around 1000 stone. Another disadvantage is when this microbevel is applied to Japanese woodworking tools. The steel that makes the cutting edge is much harder than O1 and A2 steels and tempered much higher which creates a more brittle steel. The microbevel in this case will create a small area where the hard steel has no support and will lead to more micro-chipping in normal use and will require re-sharpening more often.  In the context of the Japanese chisels there is another disadvantage in my opinion, these tolls due to their larger bevels can be very reliably used bevel down to do cleanup work of any kind. A microbevel in this case would definitelly not help.
In past I have used microbevel but I have abandoned them.
The mirror polish deosn't really mean the tool is sharp, there are abrasives that will never get the tool as shiny as one would expect, like silicon oxide, also the natural Japanese stones usually don't get such a mirror shine on the tools but they extremely sharp. The steel also has to do with the level of shine as well, the powdered metal tools don't get as shiny either with some abrasives. The most shine is provided by aluminum oxide, but again the extra shine or mirror polish on the tool does not necessarily mean the tool is sharp as it can be.

All the best,
Ionut

[fraseman999]

Thanks again Ionut great information,

I got a response from Tormek today which i can't quite follow.

"Hello John,
Did you get a new washer with your japanese waterstone? (yes)
The problem is that the js-250 does not have the centre bushing.
It demands that the hole to be a bit larger than normal, in return
the washer is the main support for alignment instead of the hole on
the centre of the stone.
If you have the older stamped stainless steel washer it can be difficult
to get the stone to align correctly"

Can someone help me on this, yes it came with a new washer which was identical to the one already on the machine.

Now after some thought, could it be possible that the washer goes on the outside? Not according to the video it doesn't.

Help!

Thanks

John

[ionut]

Hi John,

I don't remember all the details because I've installed that stone years ago and never took it off since. But I remember there was a washer and to me it seemed logic, I have used both the old and the new provided one and sandwiched the stone between them. I didn't see a video available in those days but it may have been available somewhere also I don't believe the small paper note said anything about the installations steps or not, as I said it happened long ago. Use both washers, if not to nut may dig in the stone as you tighten it.
Let me know what's happening.

All the best,
Ionut

[Rob]

Thanks again Ionut great information,

I got a response from Tormek today which i can't quite follow.

"Hello John,
Did you get a new washer with your japanese waterstone? (yes)
The problem is that the js-250 does not have the centre bushing.
It demands that the hole to be a bit larger than normal, in return
the washer is the main support for alignment instead of the hole on
the centre of the stone.
If you have the older stamped stainless steel washer it can be difficult
to get the stone to align correctly"

Can someone help me on this, yes it came with a new washer which was identical to the one already on the machine.

Now after some thought, could it be possible that the washer goes on the outside? Not according to the video it doesn't.

Help!

Thanks

John

I see where they're going, its just the instruction is unclear. My advice would be to telephone them to get talked through the procedure.

Reading their (somewhat broken English) mail it sounds to me like the jap stone has no metal lining the hole in its centre (bushing) so due it's slightly larger bore makes it a sloppy fit on the revolving shaft. That's what's causing your wobble of course ie the shaft isn't exactly centred in the middle of the stone.  Presumably the washer they supplied will somehow correct for this

Does it have a shoulder or flange which push fits inside the stones hole to exactly centre it?

Either that washer will have some logical feature to its engineering that "naturally fits" somewhere or they've sent you the wrong part in the kit (that is possible but its highly unlikely). I've frequently had parts missing from new kit before but never the wrong part.

A phone conversation with their tek team should clarify that instruction