New SVM-00 Small Knife Jig

[Rob]

I've noticed Record Power have recently steamed into this market full speed ahead. It amazes me that Tormek are unable to enforce the protection of their patents in some way. These clones look identical in so many ways....I mean what's the point in having a patent if it has no teeth!

[jeffs55]

Here it is on eBarf:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TORMEK-SVM-00-Small-Knife-Holder-Jig-Watch-the-video-and-see-how-it-works-/221205139079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3380da8e87

I am not endorsing or downgrading this product by making this post.

[Ken S]

Assuming delawarewolf is a legitimate Tormek dealer, selling the jig for full retail price, what's wrong with this?

Adding in the shipping cost, my local dealer is still a better deal.

Ken

[nobby1967]

I've noticed Record Power have recently steamed into this market full speed ahead. It amazes me that Tormek are unable to enforce the protection of their patents in some way. These clones look identical in so many ways....I mean what's the point in having a patent if it has no teeth!

There have been a load of copies from different companies .Jet make have comprehensive set of jigs as well. Rutlands make water grinder as well.
When I went to buy my T7 I was looking at the jet grinder as well. The jet grinder was a fair bit cheaper. I also see the T7 demonstrated in store which swayed me plus all the jigs you can get as well and 7year guarantee. quality speaks for its self.

[ionut]

This jig has a major issue regarding setting the angle for non-parallel side knives, if the procedure of setting the angle is followed as per the video clip presented by Tormek the knives will end with different bevel angles on both side.

Having Tormek pursuing the solution that came out from this forum may render all their knife jigs pretty much useless, that is why in their design of this new small knife jig they made use of the older one and I don't see anything wrong with this.

In regards to the patents, enforcing patent holding may be a very expensive besides none of the copies I have seen get even close in the quality provided by Tormek but this is mainly a matter of time I believe. As you could see none of these copies offer the latest SE-76 type of straight edge jig or the same model of truing device, they all follow the older versions that Tormek had in the past. Enforcing a patent also doesn't mean that nobody else can use the idea, it means that nobody else can use it without paying some tribute to the original holder of the patent, there may also be a period of time after which you can use someone's patent without having to pay anymore for it.
This type of machine is really not new, I am not sure if Tormek holds a patent on the entire machine, my grandfather had a wet grinder with a humongous wheel at least 30cm if not larger, the grinding surface was around 4 inches and the so called tray was actually the body of the device, the motor were my grandfather's feet and the whole thing was made of wood but essentially was following the same principle.

Ionut

[Ken S]

I would be surprised if Tormek holds a patent on the entire machine.  In my home library, Planecraft originally published by  C&J Hampton Ltd of Sheffield, England (parent company or Record planes) and reprinted by Woodcraft Supply Co, shows "A Typical power-driven Wet Grindstone" (p49).  the book was first published in 1934.  (The book is still available from Woodcraft Supply, and is a worthwhile addition to a woodworker's library.)

The grinder shown looks more suited to a factory than a home shop.  It also looks specifically designed for straight plane blade grinding.

We might be surprised as to what is actually patented and what is not.  For example, the original Omnijig has only one patent.  The patent is for the template which is used to cut sliding tapered dovetails.

The Tormek and Omnijig, for me, have some similarities. (The main function of the Omnijig is for very efficiently cutting half blind dovetails.) Both are solid, fairly simple but very versatile machines.  I believe both are capable of more than the limited amount of accessories provide.  The Omnijig is more constrained by this than the Tormek, as Porter-Cable chose to only produce six templates for it.  I have modified mine to accept about sixteen templates and it is capable of far more.

I hope the Tormek will continue growing.

Ken

[Rob]

Aye

Im reasonably sure that industrial patents on product design in the UK expire after 20 years

[Herman Trivilino]

This jig has a major issue regarding setting the angle for non-parallel side knives, if the procedure of setting the angle is followed as per the video clip presented by Tormek the knives will end with different bevel angles on both side.

They set the blade of the jig on a counter top showing that it's the same plane as the blade of the knife.  Are they fooling me?

[Herman Trivilino]

A major shortcoming of all of the Tormek knife jigs is they have no reliable way of setting the bevel angle on a knife with a grind, also known as a secondary bevel. 

[ionut]

The problem may still happen with parallel side knives of different thickness than the extension that is being clamped in the original knife jig. It can be argued that both situations are  being acceptable given the fact  the bevels are very small anyways.
I believe that just setting the small knife visually in the clamp, without referencing a hardtop surface, will give closer bevel angles on the opposite sides.

Ionut

[Jeff Farris]

Not working directly for Tormek anymore, I don't have a stake in this debate, but I will point out a couple things that might be overlooked on some of these issues.

Regarding centering blades where the sides are not parallel, Almost every knife with tapered sides has a bolster where the steel is flat and the bevels are even on each side. The table top method shown in the video and the instructions would work for tapered blades if you put your finger on the bolster, holding it flat to the table (if the blade thickness is close to the same as the clamped bar). From playing with my sample, it also appears that the logical approach is to visually inspect the alignment of the edge with the jig and adjust accordingly, as Ionut posted last night. In fact, it looks to me like it will keep the blade centered better than the SVM-45 alone, since the piece that goes in the SVM-45 is the "right" thickness to center correctly.

The bigger issue is multiple blade folding knives, where it is impossible to grip the handle with the blade centered. In those cases, to keep the bevel angles the same on both sides, you have to adjust the Universal Support or the stop on the SVM-45 for each side of the blade.

I don't know if Tormek considered the zero clearance tool rest idea or not, but despite its recent discussion here, it isn't exactly a new concept, nor did Herman try to claim that it was. I personally played with it a bit when Ionut first brought the idea up years ago. Perhaps I should have tried it more, but I felt freehand sharpening was an easier solution. The fact that it is an easier solution for me doesn't mean it is for everyone, and Herman's design certainly makes it easier to keep consistent bevels around a curve and centered on the blade.

Regarding timing, knowing how Tormek works, I can promise you, this design has been in development and testing for no less than 2 or 3 years.

[Rob]

Yeah I figured their cycle time wouldn't be quick :-)

[ionut]

Well I am not sure about that news, you Jeff not working directly for the Tormek, is that something recent? It doesn't sound good to me, what happened?

Yes that's what I have expected the new jig looks to be a bit too complex to be put together over night and be ready for retail as well at the same time and on the top of everything it doesn;t have any connection with the platform that emerged from this forum.

All the best,
Ionut

[Ken S]

To be fair to Tormek AB, they are under a lot of constraints we do not have in our home workshops.

Any company making any product or service must consider whether or not developing, manufacturing and marketing that product will bring in a reasonable business profit for the owners.  Certainly the basic jigs outsell the more specialized ones.  I do think it is commendable that Tormek has developed more specialized jigs like the DBS-22.

The Tormek engineers must consider the sometimes conflicting product safety regulations of many nations.  The new switch is an example of that.  We believe the change was made to comply with European Union safety regulations.  I can't imagine Tormek marketing anything which would not comply with the regulations of the nations in the developed world.

They must work around what they believe to be the competency levels of the average user, and perhaps the below average user.  The forum knife jigs presume some skill and judgement in knowing how to hold the blades while sharpening, as opposed to the blades being secured in a jig.

I hope that both the forum and Tormek will continue pushing back the borders of not known and not doable.

Ken

[Ken S]

I would think so, too, Herman. 

Ken