Butcher Block Kitchen Countertop

[brettgrant99]

Personally, I would go with A2.  I presume that you will use your tormek for sharpening.  I'd rather have the longer lasting edge.  Now if you were going to sharpen with bench stones, I would consider the O2.

All of my planes are ancient, so for me it is a moot point, but if I was buying a new one, I would get A2.

Brett

[tooljunkie]

I would go with A2 my self because the edge will last longer but that's just my opinion.

[Steve Brown]

I think, to me, being the sharpest possible is what I'm looking for. A little extra sharpening is not that big a deal with the Tormek, if that's really what it amounts to.

Steve

[tooljunkie]

Yes it isn't a big deal now that we have a Tormek.

Another plus if you are looking a Veritas is the fact that the blade is thicker then many others.

[Ken S]

I would lean, like Steve, in the direction of the O1.  Plan to do minor touch ups more frequently rather than sharpen.

Eventually, Steve, you will probably have both blades (and more!) for the low angle jack plane.

Do keep us posted both with the project and the plane.

Good luck.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ken,
I bought enough 8/4 maple to make my counter tops. I cut up one board and took the rest back. The material was beyond the scope of my equipment. The table saw bogged down, the jointer was OK but the bed is only 4', 6' or even 7' would have been better. The planer is a 13" Delta, which is OK. For that kind of material, you really need a 3 hp table saw. Plus, I wanted to net 1 3/4" out of the 8/4 boards and as Ionut said, the internal pressure dynamics change as you rip a board. As such, some 8/4 boards don't yield an 1 3/"4 finished piece after jointing and planing because of bowing.  That said, I bought finished blanks from Woodcraft for the same price as the S2S material cost. So, no jointing, no planing, no sanding or finishing. Plus, I can assemble on site which saves me from carrying full pieces to the site. One top is 38 X 80. That would have weighed about 170 lbs. or more assembled. Could be done, but not a lot of fun.
I will have to joint to tops, so I bought the Veritas bevel up jointer with O1 steel and with the edge guide. I'll let you know how that works. If it doesn't work out, I can always blame you since it was your suggestion. How's that sound?
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

As Curly said in "City Slickers", "Day ain't over yet."  You made a valiant attempt, and learned some things.
You will be a better woodworker for the experience.

Keep us posted on your progress, and what you think of the Veritas bevel up jointer.  This might be a good time to invest in a good four foot straightedge.  Useful now and useful later, too.

"Fortune favors the brave"

Ken

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

There was some developing here while I wasn't able to connect the last days.
About steel type for the plane blades, if I would need now to go and get a new blade for my planes I would most likely get an O1 one, it is said, I never verified the statement as I don't have the needed tools, that O1 steel may allow a finer crystalline structure which allows for a sharper cutting edge. Even though I don't have the tools to verify it, I can feel the difference when cutting wood, the feel, the sound of the cut and the look of the wood after being planned are  in favour of the O1. Yes you may have to sharpen it a bit more frequent but with Tormek that is not an issue and for fine and precise work I would go with O1. For hogging wood I would still consider the A2. If you pay attention on how your tool cuts you can quickly take the blade out and with just some honing on the leather wheel you can restore it quickly to the initial cutting state. Of course if there are no nicks or other defects on the cutting edge, a 10x or 20x magnifier glass can help you to asses the state.
I am sorry you had to take that avenue with your counter top, first a commercial table saw is not appropriate to rip hard maple in that thickness and length. The table saw is one of the most dangerous and un-predictable tools to use in my opinion, I would only have use for it for trimmings and that would not justify the money spend and the space used for the machine that's why I don't have one and I will never do. An industrial/large production quality table saw is not the subject for this. Ripping of that wood on table saw is very hard on the blade, thaw should be done in multiple passes. Also the tension in the wood may lead to dangerous kickbacks during the process so you would have to be in the opposite corner of your house when doing that. A much better option for that would be to sell the table saw for a band saw. You can rip as much as you want on that machine all kinds of woods in all kinds of states and as thick as the machine will allow you. It is a much more reliable tool. You would argue that the cut would need to be cleaned and I am telling you that cleanup is less than minimal and the time together with the planning of cut surface is far less than mocking around a table saw to get the results you want. To give you an example how the wood personality influences you work, while I was ripping my maple for my workbench top, one of the boards had so much tension build up that when the was 6 inches away from the end of the cut the wood did split violently. I have ended there with about 1/2" bow for the entire board so I decided to use it for the leg construction as taking all that bow out would have left me with less thickness than I needed. Imagine that happening on a table saw.
Some people may argue but I know what I went through, the jointer effectiveness decreases drastically with the length of the board in comparison with the length of the table. Ideally the in-feed table would have to be as long as the board being planed, that would allow the wood to rest on the entire length stable for the cut, leading to minimal wood removal and perfect results, but something like that is far from our budgets, space and goals. An option would be to build a wooden extension but that has it's own critical issues to be addressed, a stand would be the next option but you may end with slicing wood until you may not be able to use it for what you want without getting a straight true surface, and the last option would be to use it as it is which I doubt would give you the desired results in case of wild woods. You could use a planner but without a true reference the planner just copies the defects from one side to the other. That is why we have our hand planes that will allows use to do the best job on wood no machine can do and that is why I have trued my boards by hand.
Now the already made butcher blocks have their own issues, the reason why you paid as much as or as less as the S2S is because their quality is far from the quality obtained by making them yourself. You may be lucky and may have got blocks laminated from full length wood ( as long as the butcher block is) but I really doubt that, most of them are made using end finger joined wood, more than that there is no attention paid to the way the grain is oriented and the wood pieces are coming from very different parts of the tree which will lead in a not very stable block. Considering the fact that they will end in the kitchen where moist may be an issue I would suggest to add some extra finish coats and definitely coat it on the underside as well.

Ionut

[Ken S]

Steve,

Two thoughts:

A2 or O1?  For an extra $34.50, you can order one of each with your plane.  Keep them both sharp and see which you prefer.  Eventually you can grind a secondary bevel on one to another angle if you want.

With the maple board you started to cut:  Is it large enough to be made into a cutting board?  My cutting board is 18" x 24".  I use it almost every day in food prep.  It's a nice one and I like it.  I would like it more if I had made it myself.  It would be a nice use for your maple.

Your jointer should have no problem with the shorter length boards.  They wouldn't be such a hassle to cut to size.  (Have you considered a thin kerf ripping blade or using a bandsaw?)

Final thickness could be whatever happens.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ionut.
I think the best thing that happened to me is finding out what the limits are of my equipment. A hard maple butcher block counter top is, practically speaking, beyond the scope of my equipment. I do have an 18" bandsaw, but still, given the same choices, knowing what I know now, I would opt to assemble kitchen counter tops from pre-finished blanks. I feel good about that decision when all things are considered.

As I told Ken, I have ordered the Veritas low angle, bevel up jointer plane with the edge guide and O1 steel. If the O1 becomes problematic, I will experiment with the A2.

I think the main point is, if you want a solid maple counter top to be a net of 1 3/4", you will most likely have to start with larger material than 8/4. This is the main thing that I did not realize. It's good to know that for the future. Anyone else who tries making a solid wood top should be aware of that fact. Also, it should be said that it is not really a problem using a 4' jointer to mill 10' material as long as you have rollers for support at the infeed and outfeed sides. Yes, a larger bed would be more convenient, but not absolutely necessary, as I discovered. The same for the thickness planer. With good support, milling 10' material is not really a problem. The main thing is that if you are not a "production shop", making a large solid wood kitchen counter top is not really appropriate, in my opinion. Smaller stuff, yes, but anything as large as what I was attempting is not really sensible. Thanks again for your input,
Steve   

[Steve Brown]

Ken,
I have a Forrest blade with the stabilizing disc on my table saw now and I have an 18" band saw. I have tried the thin kerf blades and I don't really care for them. I just think that with the size and weight of the material I was working with, going with pre-assembles pieces was the right choice. The one board I did rip, I'll use for edge banding in a couple locations on this top.
For whatever reason, I've gotten myself convinced that O1 is the way I want to go. I'm guessing I will eventually try the A2, but for now, I will see how it goes with the O1.
I'll let you know, thanks.
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

Don't get me wrong, your choice is your choice and I respect it, agreeing with your choice is a bit of a different story. Even though I respect your choice I still feel disappointed, even though is not my business, because  this is a result of 40 posts thread in which different people tried to  help you as much as possible with all the information needed for you to get the job done, in my case I am just wondering if I wasn't more confusing than helping considering the extra questions you had.
Anyways to get back to the points, it is good to try both blade types as that's the only way you may find out what you like and it is better for you. I can't be too objective as most of my blades are A2.
In my opinion any piece of wood that gets inside your shop can be worked  if the size of it allows you to take it in. Of course we don't have production shops but also this table top was not a production shop job, it would have been if you would have had to build 20 of them in a week.  In my previous posts I tried to show my approach in making the counter top, which doesn't have to be the best way, in my case I see it as the best way to deliver to highest quality which also has nothing to do with the speed. Of course you can use the jointer, if you consider its mechanics and its limitations, you can use the 4' table to start milling the wood and you can spend as much time as you want to find the best solution to use the jointer. For me it was more practical to get to my hand planes and prepare the references by hand as I got faster in doing that than to invent all kinds of helpers for the jointer. You could just skip the jointer all together if you wanted and just use the planner and end with not perfectly true boards but boards that you can still laminate with all the tension in the wood. 
You actually can build a 6" thick top of 4x4 lumber if you want. If your remember, in one of my first posts, I presented to ways to laminate the top, side lamination or edge lamination, depending on what you try to achieve. My workbench top is 3" thick made from 8x4 lumber and it is a side lamination which is the best stability and strength option.

Ionut

[Ken S]

Steve,

This post goes far beyond the usual in several ways.  It shows how little we really know about each other. However, it also shows how we all try to offer good advice in good faith.

For what it's worth, I admire you for attempting such a large project.  I know it is frustrating that things did not work out the way you had planned.  All is not lost.  You have some new hard won knowledge.  You also have the woodworking "bug".  Those two can be a powerful combination for forward motion.

I predict you will use this temporary setback as a building block for future projects.  I hope you prove me right.

Hang in there, compadre.

Ken

ps  I bought my century old Bedrocks from a carpenter in his eighties (in 1972).  He told me he had hollow ground the blades, and that he could touch up the sharpness with a file.  I'll bet he would have swapped those blades in a nanosecond for either O1 or A2.

[Steve Brown]

I spent an hour yesterday sharpening my 90's vintage Stanley block plane. Took the back to 8000 and used the Tormek Japanese 4000 on the bevel. The idea was to plane the end grain side of the maple top I'm making in order to turn 90 degrees with another piece of the counter top, if that makes any sense. I got the plane sharp and square. I was able to get some thin shavings by keeping the throat tight and the blade barely on the wood, but I came away thinking that the block plane on hard maple end grain was not the appropriate tool. In the end, I'm thinking the best thing to do is use the router with a straight edge guide and belt sand to finish it up. Frankly, I was hoping a Tormek sharp block plane was going to be a magic bullet, but it didn't work that way. I wonder if I had some Hock 01 iron in that block plane, or maybe a low angle block plane with Hock steel in it, would I have had a different experience. My real goal here is to get away from power tools as much as possible. I feel like I started out in motor boats but now that I have had a glimpse of the true nature of woodworking, I want to be in a sail boat. BTW, thanks to Ken S. and Ionut, I have purchased the Veritas bevel up jointer, jack and smoother planes. Again, all in pursuit of woodworking purity. Thanks guys, you have been an inspiration.
Steve

[ionut]

Hi Steve,

First I hope you didn't have to spend an hour sharpening only on the Tormek, unless if that hour included the flattening by hand of the blade as well. Using Tormek for the bevel should be a very short session.
About the end grain of the counter top, I am afraid you were trying to tickle an elephant with a hair thread. The block plane is a bit too small for that operation considering the surface of the end grain and the size of the block plane. You should have used at least the jack plane, it is heftier, if allows you to hold it easier and apply more force with your body as the end grain requires much more effort to plane and it is also much harder on the blade so when you have a lot of end grain to plane you will have to make sure you always use a very sharp blade even if you would have to sharpen it a bit more often. Also the surface of the plane would gain a much straighter edge and if your butcher block is less than 2" 3/8 you can cover the entire surface in one pass. The block plane is for smaller surfaces where using a larger plane makes the work very awkward. In my case I have a principle, use the largest plane possible for the job. If the idea in case with the end grain is to join that edge I would also go and use the jointer. So for all the end grain work make sure you have a dedicated blade that is used only for this kind of work regardless the side of the work. The bevel angle should be not larger than 25 which in combination with the 12 degrees bed angle would make a 37 degrees attach angle. This leads to the best combination in my case. For end grain work the blade should be an A2 blade as it is able to take more beating and it has to be extremely sharp all the times to give you good results. Use the largest plane for the job, in your case at least the jack plane. If you want to reference the plane side to something straight you can only use the jack as the sides of the plane are square to the sole. The jointer doe not have square sides to the sole. The mouth opening doesn't matter much when you deal with end grain so leave it opened enough to allow the shavings to go through, the tearing on the end grain is not depending on the mouth opening. The tearing on the end grain happens when the blade is not sharp enough and presses the wood grain instead of cutting it. On the long grain tearing is happening for the same reason but with different mechanics, the blade instead of cutting the wood is lifting it, but closing the mouth as much as possible would break the wood sooner and would reduce the tearing. And whenever you see marks on the wood engrain created by minor nicks in the blade, or if it is much harder to push, don't continue, get the blade out and put a new sharp edge on it. Also when you plane try to skew the plane, not too much to not lose support, just enough to make the job easier. For very hard endgrain jobs sometimes I use to wet the endgrain with mineral spirit which also aids a bit the process.
You could also go with the router and sander as you said but you will never get to same result and cannot rely on the edge for a glue line or jointed surface. The sander would mess all the good work of the router with a straight edge. If that your path you are thinking to take use just the router with a good quality and sharp spiral bit of at least 1/2" diameter.
Motorized woodworking is more of a machine operating and jig making art, I also prefer to stay away from the machines as much as possible. They are very useful in numerous repetitive operations like production shops but that is pretty much it. It is unbelievable how many and beautiful things you can build with just few hand tools, some wood and just two hands.

I hope this helps.
Ionut