1/4" Bevel Edge Chisels

[Herman Trivilino]

I accept the horse for courses reasoning but my take is simply that its more polarised than that in other words there is a much greater bias in the direction of linisher style machines because they make the processing of most tools faster and simpler.

How are they for kitchen knives, pocket knives, and scissors?  Or do you use them mostly for turning tools.  I'm not a turner!
 

[SharpenADullWitt]

I accept the horse for courses reasoning but my take is simply that its more polarised than that in other words there is a much greater bias in the direction of linisher style machines because they make the processing of most tools faster and simpler.

How are they for kitchen knives, pocket knives, and scissors?  Or do you use them mostly for turning tools.  I'm not a turner!

When you get into knife making, you will find whole groups that spend way more then the Tormek costs, on their belt grinders.
I am cheap, my Tormek with most of the turning stuff, cost me less then $200.  (then I added the hand tool kit and a few other bits)  I also have the Multitool that Jeff sells now, from when Snap on, closed them out (used to be a distributor under the Blue Point label).  They were around for $109.  I view them more as a fast stock removal tool and fabricating tool.  (although with some of the belts they are also great for cleaning off gaskets)  Jeff doesn't carry the full line of stuff for them (I don't see the adapters for certain grinders, like my Baldor, nor do I see the plane iron jig).
In my view, the Tormek is a tool maintainer, more then a reshaper.  (should be faster then by hand, after practice)

[Rob]

Recall my essay.  There was suggestion of specialisation and niching, for precisely the tools you suggest.

[kennyk]

kennyk - you have now  introduced a comment about usb movement. I have just been out to mine, and to deflect the end of the bar I really need to apply a heavy load. The machine moves first.

I would suggest as per KenS you practice with 3/4" chisels and get up the learning curve. Then for narrow chisels, if a problem in the corner of the SE-76, move the chisel away from the edge, and use marker pen and a small square to check squareness.

Keep up posted.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself properly, the play is not when the support is tightend.  What I mean is it is possible to lock the support in such a position that the bar is out of parallel to the wheel by 1.5mm at one end.   To my way of thinking, this has setup implications, because to use the truing tool the bar must be moved, and I have no way to guarantee that it is in exactly the same plane as it was before.



I'd be interested to see what someone who is more experienced with the machine can determine by deliberately introducing this error ( By that I mean how much is it physically skewing the chisel) , so that I might be able to find an easily repeatable and foolproof method of setup that completely eliminates it. Is it possible that I have a faulty part somewhere?

Moving back to the original 1/4" chisel issue,  it's clear to me that the SE-76 is of little use for 1/4"and smaller bevel edged chisels.  Not only due to the notch I've previously mentioned, but also because of the tightening mechanism only grips the top of the chisel at the back of the SE-76.  it seems what is happening is that the chisel is being clamped by a very small area in one point  and it's causing it to swivel.   


The options are to try tighten it further and cause it to twist in the jig because of the front to back notch at the registration edge, or to allow it to be able to swivel.  Both are causing a bevel that is out of square.

A further difficulty is that my SE-76 has a small, ragged bead most of the way along the front edge, left over from the manufacturing process, and I am having trouble using a square on this edge to check whether the chisel is in the jig correctly if I mount it away from the registration edge.

[Ken S]

The quality of machining in certain Tormek products amazes me. The EXYlock is truly well made.  So is the DBS-22 drill bit jig.  I think the SE-76 is going in the right direction.  I notice the cut away ridge and rough machining in mine. The jig works well with wider chisels with more bearing surface, but does seem a little iffy for narrow blades.  Fortunately, the narrow blades require little work to finish off with bench stones.  Someone (Robin?) posted about machining the front surface of his SE-76.  It seems a good idea to me.

Ken

[Ken S]

On the question of the support bar going out of square:

I'm a believer in simplifying setup.  I like to use a known fixed distance from the grinding wheel to the support bar and a predetermined projection length of the blade from the SE-76.  In fact, I prefer to use the TTS-100 setting tool (for turning tools) with bench tools. Before grinding, run the TTS-100 (or a spacer block of wood, this needn't be high tech) across the surface of the wheel to make sure it is equidistant along its length. A quick check can save much grinding.

Ken

[Tormek moderator]

Kenny,

With regard to the Universal Support, make a habit of placing your thumb directly above the vertical rod with the micro-adjuster on it, pressing down, while you tighten the clamps. This will maintain the plane of the horizontal bar to a reasonably tight tolerance.

Further to that issue, I know that you can introduce a variance in that angle by torquing the end of the Universal Support. However, in actual practice I think you'll find that when making normal adjustments the variance is quite small.

With regard to clamping in the jig, here's a procedure I would like you to try. Index the tool against the edge as designed. Bring the clamping bar down and secure it, paying attention to keeping it parallel to the base. Grind the bevel and check it. If it is skewed, increase the clamping pressure on the long point and decrease the pressure on the short side. Make the adjustments in small increments.

This was the procedure to "dial in" the SVH-60. I'm pretty sure it will work with very narrow chisels in the SE-76.

[kennyk]

I've just had another frustrating try.

The ONLY thing that is making any difference to the skew is whether the support is 'torqued' or not.    In complete contrast, I'm finding the variance is massive, as opposed to your 'quite small'.  I'm talking at least 0.5mm of skew over a 6mm chisel.

further I've ended up with the inner clamp screw very tight and the outer one very loose with no further possibility of tightening, and it's still skewed.   

I'm going to pick it up again tomorrow when I'm not feeling quite so utterly fed up with the whole thing.   It shouldn't be this difficult to get a square edge.

[kennyk]

I should add, that I've tried to sharpen, so far, over 20 1/4" chisels, so I'm confident I can rule out a wonky chisel as being the problem.
I'm still absolutely fed up, but I'm nowhere near the workshop so can't be tempted to tinker further today.

On my drive home, I've been thinking about the problem, and I have come up with the following thoughts about the problems I have encountered so far.

I cannot get over the fact that tightening and loosening the screws on the SE-76 can only introduce a fractional difference of a few thousandths of an inch to the alignment of the chisel, whereas comparatively, the play on the Universal support legs where they fit into the top of the machine is massive.  Personally the fact that  this level of tolerance is considered acceptable on a commercial product where accurate results depend upon accurate alignment, troubles me greatly.  I mean, when the screws are loosened, it's possible to rattle it.

Further thoughts are that I have not been able to determine how much pressure is required on the back of the tool when sharpening.  For all I know I could be putting far too much pressure on.

My initial instinct regarding the design of the SE-76 still stands.  the gutter, as somebody called it, must be causing at least some of the problems.  As there is no way to reference whether the back of the chisel is firmly against the top edge of the SE-76 other than visually, and that gutter can cause the chisel to twist in the jig, then the design is flawed.  Yes it will work for plane blades and 1 inch chisels, but. the curved clamp against the top of the chisel means that there is very little to hold the chisel firmly in the correct place.


I'll be honest here, I'm really unhappy.  I've taken up a LOT of work time on this, and  I think I could have got more accurate results with Japanese Waterstones.   
I spent several  hours on a Clifton No 7 plane blade  correcting the 1mm skew that I accidentally introduced on the first attempt.


On a separate note, I had quiet misgivings about the stone grader from the outset, and my fears have been realised.  All the stone grader has succeeded in doing is curve the stone surface so rather than flat it's convex - necessitating a further half dozen passes with the truing tool.  My stone is now at 240 mm after 6 months of very little use - it's lost 5mm in the last few weeks.  (It lost 5mm when I first got the machine, and then the machine sat idle for 3 months, with very light use until the last couple of weeks)     Again I feel a victim of vague instructions - how much pressure is too much? how much is not enough?.   Holding a stone freehand against the wheel is bound to negate any accuracy from the truing tool, so I'm feeling that it's another sales gimmick that doesn't do what the sales hype says.

Guys I'm really sorry that this is so negative but I'm just not feeling any love for the Tormek System any more.  The only thing that I actually like is the leather honing wheel.

[RobinW]

I had a bit of difficulty in understanding what you were doing and the associated play with the support bar, so I went and did the following.

a) There has to be some play of the usb when the clamp screws are slackened off, otherwise it would not go up and won easily. I started off with the re-truing tool. To set the usb height I fitted the truing tool - clamped to the usb, moved the usb up and down using the micro-adjust screws until the truing tool was just touching the wheel. Then using one finger only on the usb, right on top of the screwed rod with the micro-adjust, I tightened the clamp onto the screwed rod. Took finger off usb, and tightened the other clamp (no finger on the usb) on the smooth rod of the usb. Clamp tightening is 'nipped up' as they would say in a workshop - not Arnold Schwarzenegger stuff.

b) I re-trued the wheel because my last lot of sharpening was on turning gouges and I find that I tend to cause the wheel surface to become a bit mountainous - it took three passes until I had consistent noise and colour when using the TT-50. truing tool. I don't lean on the usb or truing tool, lightly turning the knobs. I also do it slowly, so the surface is fairly smooth.

c) I then removed the truing tool, and dropped the usb down and let it rest against the wheel and tightened the clamp on the usb screwed rod (This is required as I intended using feeler gauges.).

I looked under under the usb against the light. There was a minuscule, and I mean minuscule, light towards the outside of the wheel. So I tried to check it with two feeler gauges. The smallest imperial gauge 0.004" (0.1mm) would not go near the gap. The smallest metric gauge 0.05mm (0.002") would not look at the gap. Conclusion - it's bang on. No way I could expect better. In fact it is tighter than a lot of engineering machining tolerances I have experienced elsewhere.

d) I then lifted  the usb clear of the wheel to an arbitrary height. I used a square and drew two lines (separated by a few inches) across the surface of the wheel, ie parallel to the direction if the usb. I then put a chisel into the SE-76 (with a 50mm extension approx which is what I tend to use for all blades) and set it for 25 degree bevel. Again when the angle was correct. I again placed one finger on the usb right above the screwed rod, and nipped up the clamp. Removed finger from usb, and nipped up the other clamp. I then removed the SE-76 with chisel and measured the distance between the wheel and the underside of the usb. I used the pencil line across the wheel as my reference. I moved the wheel and repeated it using the other pencil line. Due to the shape of the vernier I could only measure towards the outside and inside edges of the wheel.

I got 22.1mm for all measurements. I then refitted the SE-76 with chisel, and set it for a bevel angle of 30 degrees, repeated the measurements and got consistent gaps of 27.5mm. I also tried doing the measurements using some calipers, including from the middle of the wheel surface, and these were all within 0.1mm of the vernier sizes. For someone who is obsessive about accuracy, this is well acceptable!

Conclusion - no errors have been introduced due to the height adjustment of the usb. The usb and wheel remained bang on parallel.

e) Small chisels in the Se-76

I started with a 3mm chisel. This fell into the groove inside the SE-76, canted over introducing a large twist and so no good for grinding. Solution - move the chisel to the middle of the SE-76.

Same effect with a 3.5mm mortise chisel. This has a different shape to a bevel chisel as the front and back faces are not parallel, so caution advised when clamping.

With a 1/4" chisel, it was not clear whether it was canting over, but I would not be surprised depending on the width between the corners on the chisel front face (bevel side). Again to be sure, move to the middle of the SE-76.

With a 10mm (3/8") it appeared to sit flat without any problem.

Trust this helps

[Ken S]

Kenny,
Your experiences with your Tormek remind me of when I began using a 4x5 (5x4 in UK) wooden view camera.  In 1981 I paid $1400 US for the camera kit, a lot of money for this working man.  I was really disappointed.  I had wanted the large negative camera for several years.  Now that I finally had it, I couldn't see through the ground glass. I was quite discouraged.  Had I not spent so much I would have quit.  I left it set up on the tripod and kept looking through the ground glass from time to time.  Eventually my eyes adjusted to the ground glass. Once I finally became fluent with it, the 4x5 became my favorite film size.  The view camera spoiled me for any other camera.  It was not at all fast to operate, but in skilled hands it was capable of image adjustments not possible with smaller hand cameras. In hindsight, the frustrating learning curve was well worth the hassle.

I think you are trying too hard.  Pick a time when you are under no time constraints. Choose your best 3/4" chisel, one which is almost sharp and won't require much grinding. Make sure your wheel is dressed flat and square.  Placing a good rule across the wheel will tell the tale. Carefully set the support bar and angle. Think of only sharpening this one chisel. Put all other tools out of your mind.

Start with very light hand pressure.  You will soon develop a sense of how much pressure is necessary for different widths of blades.

Once you are happy with a square ground bevel edge, take your time and use the stone grader.  Use it until your stone feels like glass.  Double check that your wheel is still flat to build your confidence. Once you are convinced your wheel is set for fine, continue with the chisel using very light pressure.  Adjust pressure as needed.

Then set up for honing.

I realize the back of your mind is reminding you that you have two hundred edges to sharpen.  Once you are completely satisfied with one 3/4" chisel, sharpen the rest of the same width chisels.  Then begin with your wider chisels.  By working very slowly and methodically by the time you are sharpening your fourth inch wide chisel, your time will be much reduced. Do not even think of going narrower than 3/4" until every wider chisel is sharpened.  Then go gradually more narrow.

I had a difficult start with the Tormek.  I even redesigned the angle master because I thought it didn't work well.  To my surprise, it works much better in good light.  (outside in my case, although brighter artificial light would work.) I still have to take care to keep my chisels square.  Grind a little and check with the Starrett square.

Violinists must master the "long bow" exercises where the bow is drawn very slowly across its full length. That kind of mindset would benefit beginning Tormek users.

Speed will come with proficiency.  I'm sure having to sharpen 200 chisels would not rattle Jeff. And, with no disrespect meant to Jeff, I believe anything he can do with a Tormek we can do, too, if we are willing to put the same time and effort into the learning process.

Back away, relax and calm your mind. Come back to your tormek with a peaceful mind.

Do keep us posted.

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

Well, if I were cutting dovetails using a $600 jig that heavily implied that the first one would be perfect even if used with my eyes closed, and then they turned out comical, then we'd have a parallel scenario.

I do really like my T7, but there are aspects of it that could be improved (as with anything made by Man).

I would also offer http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1453.msg4691#msg4691.

[kennyk]

The thing is, I HAD plenty of time to sort out 200 chisels, and the plane blades.  I'm now half way through the six week window when there are no pupils in the school, and  following the instructions and turning out another skewed chisel that should be square is what has been happening.  Now I think I don't have time to recover, even if I was to cut my losses and revert back to Japanese waterstones.

Also, I'm currently of no mind to put the grading stone anywhere near the wheel, as there is no way to guarantee that I'm not going to take it out of true at this stage, and undo the work of the truing tool and I KNOW that it has curved the grinding edge of the wheel badly before, to the point that it needed 8 passes with the truing tool.

I'm also angry, and extremely stressed about it.  According to the instructions and the videos it's touted as being really simple and quick.  I'm feeling like a total klutz.   The reality is that there are so many variables that could cause the problems I'm having, but I have to go through an excruciating process to work out which one; by which time something else I'd previously ruled out might be back in the equation.


Moving back to Robin's post,  The only time I've had success is by putting the chisel in the middle of the jig as suggested.  I'm having to adjust the chisel several times to get it square.  There's no accuracy with trying to align it in the jig with a square as I don't have a straight reference edge   as the front of the jig has that bead.

My point about the Universal support is that it is possible to align or misalign (at this stage I still don't know which) it by putting pressure on the leg without the micro adjust before tightening both screws.  Yet nobody has taken me up on this and I'm feeling that it's being glossed over.   it's not when the height is adjusted. it's when locking it in position. 

To over exaggerate the phenomenon, I'd like somebody to loosen the locking screws, torque the support bar either by putting pressure on the leg without the micro adjust ( the left one if the power switch is to the rear of the machine) or by pulling the outer edge of the support bar up and locking the non-adjust leg first.   Once it's in that position, I'd like someone to grind a bevel and report back whether it is square.   Then I'd like them to loosen the support locking screws again, put downward pressure on the outer edge of the bar and re-lock as before and run the same grinding test.

If neither of these cause any difference to the square of the bevel,  then I've clearly got something not right with my machine, because the difference between them on mine when the support bar is touching the wheel is visible, a gap of around 1mm, and it seems to be causing some of the skew.

What I'm asking is to make sure that I'm aligning the support correctly before I go at it with the truing tool again tomorrow. once the wheel is trued, I can eliminate that and move on to the next thing, as I think the problems are not limited to one factor.

[Mike Fairleigh]

Kenny, where are you located?  I wonder if there's anyone nearby who could help.

[Ken S]

Great post, Mike.  I had just sat down at my computer with me SE-76 in hand.  The front surface was a bit rough.  A couple minutes with a six inch second cut mill file and the roughness was gone.  Another five minutes removed a ridge in the inside rear surface.  My method seems adequate; Mike's is superior.

Kenny, you seem quite stressed.  Have you tried slowly sharpening  a 3/4" chisel?  I hate to sound like a broken record, but all you write about are out of square quarter inch chisels. If you take the time to work through the bug with an easier wider chisel, with practice you will soon be up to speed.  Once you get the hang of it, I don't think you will have any trouble meeting your deadline.  Change your mindset to doing the easiest tool first, one at a time.  Think just one tool. With practice you should be able to sharpen most chisels in ten to fifteen minutes. Do the easiest ones first.

Ken