1/4" Bevel Edge Chisels

[Ken S]

Speaking as a dinosaur, survival of the fittest doesn't necessarily mean survival of the finest.

My beloved old wooden view cameras and Leica have supposedly been replaced by snaps made with cel phone "cameras".  All the artistry and craft of carefully composing images and then orchestrating them in the darkroom has given way to quick snaps between tweets occasionally doctored by "imaging programs".

My favorite note in the old LP of Jacques Brel has become ordinary in the new digital technology.  Was it the new technology or just some clod who had no appreciation of beauty?

The telephone landlines I spent my working life installing and installing have been made redundant by the marketing of today's wireless technology.  No mention is made of the superior sound quality of a properly maintained copper landline.  The anywhere, anytime, with whatever reception might be available has transplanted quality transmission, just as texting has supplanted carefully crafted letters.  Better to have hundreds of little texts hastily done than a carefully thought communication.

Speed trading in unknown new investment ideas is replacing carefully planned investing in quality longterm stodgy fine stocks and mutual funds.

Belt grinders are not taking over from wet grinders; "tools" with throwaway carbide cutters are.  Actually, computer designed and manufactured items are replacing artisan skill.  Why bother to make things when one can buy them so cheaply at the local big box store?

I have no desire to trade in or scrap my wet grinder.  My oil stones and water stones have been maintained flat and dressed with a diamond flat plate.  I enjoy being able to produce a well crafted four facet drill bit adjustable to my needs.  I can't easily do that with other methods including a belt grinder. My present level of skill with sharpening drill bits is not perfected.  It is much improved from my first effort.

I like being able to work in the relative quiet atmosphere of the Tormek.  Not a lot of noise; no sparks or dust.  With careful work and experience, the sharpening can be surgical.  Not the fastest or necessarily the whole process.  I still prefer to do the final flattening and polishing of chisel backs with a flat glass plate.  I often prefer a carbon steel tool, requiring more frequent sharpening to high speed steel of modern alchemy. While the carbon steel won't hold the edge as long, the fine grain structure yields a keener edge.

I am not opposed to progress.  I do use a digital camera.  I never cared for film with color sent to the lab.  I never had control of the process, and the prints usually left me cold.  Digital is not the same as craft slowly produced in the darkroom, but it is a definite improvement over just sending the film to the lab.

I am not opposed to other mechanical sharpening equipment. When I have a lot of metal to remove I gravitate to the dry grinder with 46 grit stone or the belt grinder.

Returning to the 1/4" chisel, it is a difficult tool to keep aligned properly.  Wider chisels are easier to keep aligned.  Sharpening a wider chisel also involves removing more metal.  For the little bit of metal being removed, sharpening a narrow chisel with stones is not an arduous task. If completing the process on a Tormek was beyond my experience level, I would do the final sharpening (after removing any large nicks) with abrasive paper on glass or stones.  Use the practical tool for the job at hand.

Ken

[tonylumps]

I am not being a wise guy. But I can not imagine my Sharpening life with out my T7.I do not have the time or incentive to sharpen my chisels by hand anymore. I never could keep a Square edge sharpening by hand.When I got my T7 every chisel I had was out of square according to my 4"Starett .But I brought them all back in one at a time with the T7. I have got to ask.What other system is out there other than by hand.Am I missing something here

[Rob]

It is not my intention to be disrespectful in case any of you are mistaking my bluntness for something else.  But in a word....yes....you are missing something.  All of you who has yet to try a belt driven sharpening technology are missing something.  Innovation always causes a wake of heels dug in attitudes until the very protagonists that defend the status quo have had a chance to actually experience it.  It's a perfectly natural human resistance to change.  More so when a lot of time and effort has been invested in boning up on the old method of doing things.

You could only possibly really understand my perspective when and if you try a belt based grinding system because only then will the sheer momentum of the problems it solves catalyse the acknowledgement of the improvement.

Competitive rules forbid ant specific brand detail but I think its reasonable to discuss the technology as a concept in innovation over the concept of wet grinding.

I think for things like drill bit sharpening, and some other more specialised things the Tormek may continue to excel.  As I said, if they're smart, like all other companies that are faced with a new technology, they will specialise in a narrower niche. (Or in this case, belt sanding is an old technology packaged and delivered to a consumer market).

For any of you who have read Jeffrey Moore's "Crossing the Chasm" you will have a better understanding of the way consumers behave in technology markets.

I cant help think of the way iphone destroyed Nokia's mobile phone business in a staggeringly short time.  I know tools don't go that fast but the parallel is difficult to ignore in terms of principle.

So to use your vernacular Tony.  You can't imagine sharpening without your T7 because you don't have the time or incentive to do it by hand any more.  I can, hand on heart repeat that sentence with the following changes:  I can't imagine sharpening without my belt sander because I don't have the time or incentive to do it on any grinding system any more. 

People may not like it....however I rather think its the truth.

[tonylumps]

What kind of belt sander are you using .40 years ago I would sharpen my chisel with a Porter Cable Locomotive sander So you are saying I do not like change. If it is not broke don't fix it ,Tormek works  for me until something better comes along .

[Herman Trivilino]

The real innovation is in the abrasives.  Examples of dry grinders that make use of this technology are the MultiTool and the Sorby ProEdge.  There are other wet grinders besides the Tormek, too.  To each his own.  And her own, too.

Personally I own and use a number of tools, and recognize that each has its uses and its limitations.  When new tools come out I can use them along with my old ones.  It's not an issue of having to choose one over the other, we have the freedom to use both.

[Rob]

No one is suggesting a compulsory either or.  I merely advance the notion that having actually tried both, one would naturally favour the superior solution.  Following precisely the same logic that one would use a Tormek in preference to hand grinding for speed and repeatability.

[RobinW]

In the current Furniture and Cabinet Making magazine, there is an article comparing a T7 and a well known belt sander. Interesting to note certain foibles and quality issues on the belt sander and how if the manufacturer paid better attention to these details, how much it could be improved. The general conclusion was there are horses for courses.

Today I had another experience with my T7.

I think Rob, and possibly others too, have previously posted about how long it takes for the T7 to re-shape gouges, ie metal removal not just a quick resharpen of existing profile. I have a lathe, not used that much as just used for parts associated with other woodworking projects, and I can sharpen my gouges (not expensive ones) pretty quickly, until today. Some months ago I bought an oval skew gouge, used it once or twice, and today's job was suitable for the skew gouge. So it needed sharpening. It took me over an hour! I don't know what it is made from, but was it hard! It is some years since I used a linisher, but today I thought - this is a job for a belt sander. So I can see the advantage in this case, but I would not do my plane blades on a belt. Horses for courses.

[Rob]

It was almost certainly High speed steel.  Skews are a nightmare on the T due to the large surface area being ground.

I accept the horse for courses reasoning but my take is simply that its more polarised than that in other words there is a much greater bias in the direction of linisher style machines because they make the processing of most tools faster and simpler.  Like I said, its my belief the grinders will need to specialise so they can dominate a narrow niche.  Business life is absolutely riddled with examples where when a market starts to become competitively crowded, the successful players end up niching.  Its extremely rare they end up being dominant generically.  Look at the car industry, how many categories of vehicle do we have now??

The sharpening tool industry is obviously infinitely slower moving due to the market size but again I believe the progressive commoditisation principles which govern all business economics are just at work here as anywhere else.  The only reason I'm so adamant about it is because I have ACTUALLY TRIED both.  With the greatest respect, most of those arguing for the Tormek can't possibly be presenting a reasoned proposition because they have no experience with these alternatives.  Thus....it is an intellectual only defence of the status quo.  As previously stated, I understand the resistance to change.  I am simply predicting that the move towards what is clearly a superior technology (for the main) is as inevitable as death and taxes.  Its not a question of if....just when.

No one will be forced or required to change and I doubt any of us over 50's will even witness the end game because the pace is slow.  But as night follows day, when a superior technology is well marketed, just as in any Darwinian natural system,  selection of the fittest will occur.

I'll give you a last genuine real life down to earth example of what I'm banging on about then I promise I'll go away and we can talk about bevels again for a few years.

Last Thursday and this Sunday gone my woodturning club all came to my place for 2 practical hands on days.  We set up 7 lathes and had 4 of the senior guys coaching and mentoring. We used my place as I have a lot of space and all the sharpening stations setup.  Specifically I have a dry grinder with Tormek jig extension, a T7 and a linisher style system from a Sheffield based firm here in the UK.

Everyone agreed what they wanted to practice and 5 out of the 7 said the first thing they needed was to get to grips with sharpening.  There were all manner of dinged and multifaceted bevels thrust in my face including one skew that was at exactly 90 degrees to the side of the chisel :-)  Another one of the turners, in fact 3 of them had Tormeks and even brought their elliptical bowl gouge jigs preset with their preferred grind dialled in.

Everyone set about sharpening and I just gave pointers as to what to do on which machine as did the other more experienced sharpeners.  I was deliberately unbiased and the other Tormek guys were extremely biases towards the T7 because it was their sphere of influence and was where all their domain knowledge lay.

Well, Gods honest truth, by the end of the first day, 5 of the 7 guests said they would be buying this particular brand of linisher and one of the 3 Tormek guys caught up with me by the tea and coffee.  Almost whispering in my ear said....I had no idea how good those belt systems were, I've seen them at shows for a couple of years now but I'm definitely going to get one.  Nobody asked about the Tormek except one guy who also asked the price and then proceeded to start uttering expletives before I pointed out my children (standing nearby) were under 10 :-)

This was completely unsolicited.  So, call me Mr Conservative but....the evidence rather speaks for itself.  Perhaps we should temper this to say that for woodturners at least....the evidence speaks for itself.

On the issue of F&CM magazine, the piece may well be objective, unfortunately I haven't read it so cant make any intelligent comment save (perhaps) one sort of well known industrial truism which is that the vast majority of magazines rely on the advertising revenue to drive their profitability.  Therefore, they do devote an awful lot of editorial space to "reviewing" the latest whatever from whoever.  You will often notice that directly after an article on sharpening there will follow several pages of full page display ads devoted to grinders etc.  So the publishers almost NEVER beat up any given manufacturer because that would be biting the hand that feeds them.  Instead most reviews are benign at best trying to give an evenly balanced opinion.  Someone far more cynical than I might suggest that's a deliberate effort to keep both manufacturers sufficiently happy to continue to advertise in said publication. But obviously I'm not....so I won't :-)

[Ken S]

Rob, you make a good point.  Speaking only for myself, my experience with belt grinders is very limited.  My ancient $25 dollar yard sale special is hardly a state of the art comparison.

I did go on a learning expedition to a woodworking store in my hometown.  I found the belt grinder you mention.  It was well concealed on the bottom shelf.  It still had the shipping grease and the store carried no accessories.  I picked it up and moved it to a table and took a closer look.  The sales people took no notice or interest.  I would not give the store marketing very good marks.  In truth, I can't really speak about the other product, because I have not used it. Fo my personal knowledge, I would like to try one sometime.

I would remind you of something someone wrote on another manufacturer's forum:
"its not really the done thing to raise another manufacturers products on a forum like this"

One thing I have always appreciated about this forum is the civilized, polite way we can express differing opinions as friends. We are all learning. A Mark Twain quote also comes to mind: "Man is the only animal with the one true religion, all seven of them."

Ken

[Tormek moderator]

Can we nudge this discussion back in the direction of helping Kenny get his edges square with the Tormek he's already acquired? Thanks.

[Rob]

was I ranting again?  Must get that soap box looked at :-)

Ken I do believe there is a career waiting for you in the diplomatic corps.  Jeff....er...I mean global moderator with a post count of 4.....you have the patience of Jobe :-)

Alright alright lets talk about bevel angles then (yawn) :-)

[kennyk]

Hi Guys

I seem to have opened up a can of worms...

From what I can tell, the issue with 1/4" chisels (6mm) is caused by the notch at the registration edge of the SE-76.  it means that there is less that 4mm of the back of the chisel against the top edge, and 2mm overhanging into that front-to-back channel.  I have a picture but no way to upload it here at work.  The top of the chisel is narrow too, so it means that there is very little to hold the chisel firmly in place.

I've found a work around of sorts, but it is very hit and miss - moving the chisel away from the edge and eyeballing it square.  or just going for it freehand against the support.   Neither is ideal, but it's preferable to >10 degree skews. which have taken me a fair amount of time to correct.  I've had to go back to the old Viceroy Sharpedge flatstone grinder to re-grind primary bevels.


I do think that some sort of in depth instructional video covering the setup of the tools in the jig is what is required.  Given that there seems to be a concensus that the instructions are currently inadequate, it is a relief to know I'm not alone.
The DVD gives very little in the way of useful information.  I think my comment earlier stands.  I don't need sales pitch on a DVD included in something I've already purchased.  Although I'm in two minds whether watching the DVD when in the depths of frustration at poor results is meant as a panacea or a further red rag!

Anyway, I can feasibly see that a video of at least 1 hr would be required on setting up the T-7 / SE-76 alone to include all the pitfalls and  errors that we seem to be encountering.

I do  still think that the play in the legs of the Universal Support is also an issue, given that it causes the outer extremity of the support to move by over 1.5mm  (1/16").  I still have no way of knowing that it is correctly set to be honest and this is causing me some annoyance too.

[Rob]

on a slightly less ranting note.......you just have to persevere.  As long as you keep calibrating the grind progress with a square (I use those really diddy ones) and adjust your finger pressure according to the high spots you will get there.

[RobinW]

kennyk - you have now  introduced a comment about usb movement. I have just been out to mine, and to deflect the end of the bar I really need to apply a heavy load. The machine moves first.

I would suggest as per KenS you practice with 3/4" chisels and get up the learning curve. Then for narrow chisels, if a problem in the corner of the SE-76, move the chisel away from the edge, and use marker pen and a small square to check squareness.

Keep up posted.

[Rob]

I've asked Stig/global moderator to remove my ranting post.  Not the right place for it.