origins, intent and present

[Ken S]

I have wondered about who began this forum and that person's intentions for it.

I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member.  Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active.  The most active posts only had around twenty postings.

After a very cursory glance, it would appear the forum may have begun in 2003.  (That's when Jeff's data should his membership began.)  I am curious as to how much Tormek AB in Sweden has been involved in either the startup or ongoing direction of the forum.  I would also be interested in learning the founding expectation "parameters" for the forum.

I have not seen any posts from anyone directly associated with Tormek AB.  I have received two emails from an official in the company in Sweden.  I had posted a comment critical (in  a constructive way) of what I believed was a lack of video training aids.  For the record, I still feel that lack remains.

The founders apparently did not envision having photos included with posts.  While this may have been more difficult in 2003, I have not seen any effort put forth by the forum administration to facilitate posting photographs.

I have continued my grumbling about the lack of good training material in several private intraforum emails.  I believe Tormek AB is missing a very good opportunity to increase sales by leaving so many users lacking confidence.  I think it would be a fine addition to this forum to include solid training materials presented in an organized way which would not necessitate the iffy search protocols.

My impish side thought we should offer this help in at least two languages.  I would call them "fish and chips" and "Big Mac".  We are, after all, "two nations divided by a common language".  Including local terms together with explanation would add spice to the learning.

I have doubts as to who would take charge of such a project.  While we have some enthusiastic helpers, in my opinion, the only person on this forum with the breadth and depth of Tormek knowledge and field experience is Jeff.  Such a project might involve a lot more time than administering a forum.  To do the project well should involve photos, illustrations, and video. 

Perhaps a good start would be an article about setting up the Tormek and sharpening a chisel.  A second article might be sharpening and maintaining knives.

Because of the nature of the forum, the project could start small and evolve.

I welcome your thoughts.

Ken

[RobinW]

I think with the technology available these days, any company which does not incorporate training/demonstration videos of their equipment is missing a trick. It not only helps the customer it generates future customers, and also helps the company's own staff understand the product better.

My one comment about any training, and this may sound unusual in the first instance, is show what to do when things don't work or if it's broken. There is no point in showing only the idealistic result ie an expert demonstrating something and it all works perfectly. That's what we all aspire to, but the road to success is somewhat different!

Look at how many times people have listed problems trying to get a straight edge on a chisel using the SE76. There is a good video showing Jeff hacking at a blade and resharpening it and lo it all works. It was a major factor (with the other videos) which convinced me to buy a T7. But like many others, I couldn't manage to reproduce the same result. That's when people post messages doubting their purchase as they don't have rapid success, and if you have too many of that type your reputation will suffer. It took a while, but I can now sharpen my chisels to the standards I desired, and I have my own little ways of correcting deficiencies.

When I was working (control systems for marine and offshore applications) any training I did, particularly onboard ship, I would show the ideal situation eg press the button and the fully automatic system would do the rest. The next step was to move to the stage of what to do when it doesn't work, and go through manual recovery process to shut a system down or make it safe. Then get into the rectification phase. The more this type of recovery type work was done for different scenarios, getting the customer's staff to be hands on and do it, the better their understanding and increased confidence. I also made sure that the manuals incorporated a similar approach.

This is what could be done for chisel sharpening (and other Tormek items). Identify the types of problems experienced with photos/videos and show the tweaks etc of how to get round them. If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is a video with audio worth?

[Rob]

I have wondered about who began this forum and that person's intentions for it.
There can be no doubt the purpose was commercial interest.  By managing the message and genuinely helping Tormek users, sales of jigs and original units would doubtless increase because greater value would be derived from using the tools correctly.  In business, if greater value is delivered...sales generally increase.  Tormek and their distribution channels would all have long realised that their product takes some knowledge and skill to get the best from....what better way to reach their audience with a modest cost....a special interest group.  Its a perfect solution, low cost, massive reach (the English speaking world) and it genuinely helps all the protagonists....manufacturer, distributor, customer.

I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member.  Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active.  The most active posts only had around twenty postings.

After a very cursory glance, it would appear the forum may have begun in 2003.  (That's when Jeff's data should his membership began.)  I am curious as to how much Tormek AB in Sweden has been involved in either the startup or ongoing direction of the forum.  I would also be interested in learning the founding expectation "parameters" for the forum.  As would I.  But as stated above my take is....revenue growth and possibly an input into the R&D process would have been the justification in all probability.

I have not seen any posts from anyone directly associated with Tormek AB.  I have received two emails from an official in the company in Sweden.  I had posted a comment critical (in  a constructive way) of what I believed was a lack of video training aids.  For the record, I still feel that lack remains.  My experience of anyone in a "support" role doesnt openly invite more problem dialogue other than through their existing channels....it can swamp a manufacturer.  My guess is the forum is monitored for particularly useful R&D input and to test the mood of opinion etc.  Intelligence gathering in short.

The founders apparently did not envision having photos included with posts.  While this may have been more difficult in 2003, I have not seen any effort put forth by the forum administration to facilitate posting photographs.  Not sure I agree with that...I loaded a bunch today and they seemed to work OK although I did have to do the learning myself.

I have continued my grumbling about the lack of good training material in several private intraforum emails.  I believe Tormek AB is missing a very good opportunity to increase sales by leaving so many users lacking confidence.  I think it would be a fine addition to this forum to include solid training materials presented in an organized way which would not necessitate the iffy search protocols.  I couldnt agree more and thats precisely why I started that thread on help for new users.
My impish side thought we should offer this help in at least two languages.  I would call them "fish and chips" and "Big Mac".  We are, after all, "two nations divided by a common language".  Including local terms together with explanation would add spice to the learning.

I have doubts as to who would take charge of such a project.  While we have some enthusiastic helpers, in my opinion, the only person on this forum with the breadth and depth of Tormek knowledge and field experience is Jeff.  Such a project might involve a lot more time than administering a forum.  To do the project well should involve photos, illustrations, and video.  Agreed, but if we follow Herman and Mark's suggestions about the use of a wiki approach....I believe we could collaborate our way towards something useful.  Just you, me, Herman, Mike, Justin et al in the last few weeks have established that we could contribute quite a bit of copy.  I believe by collaborating we share the burden sufficiently to make progress at a sensible pace.  I also agree entirely that its impossible without Jeff.  He's just too important on so many levels.  But he's doubtless busy and might not be motivated to spend a lot of time doing this kind of stuff.  I would like to think that he might have an overseeing role though.  Such that if we submitted a 2 pager on chisel sharpening for example, he could pass his eye over it and error check....or better yet, add his own unique experiences.  Right now even just the new high level group and some input about if the site supports multiple edit permissions would be great as a starter.

Perhaps a good start would be an article about setting up the Tormek and sharpening a chisel.  A second article might be sharpening and maintaining knives.

Because of the nature of the forum, the project could start small and evolve.
Absolutely...Im the last person who wants to be over committed to a hair brained idea...I have two boys under 9 and run my own business....a sensible pace that evolves with no one cracking the whip works for me just fine.

I welcome your thoughts.

Ken

[Rob]

I think with the technology available these days, any company which does not incorporate training/demonstration videos of their equipment is missing a trick. It not only helps the customer it generates future customers, and also helps the company's own staff understand the product better.

My one comment about any training, and this may sound unusual in the first instance, is show what to do when things don't work or if it's broken. There is no point in showing only the idealistic result ie an expert demonstrating something and it all works perfectly. That's what we all aspire to, but the road to success is somewhat different!

Look at how many times people have listed problems trying to get a straight edge on a chisel using the SE76. There is a good video showing Jeff hacking at a blade and resharpening it and lo it all works. It was a major factor (with the other videos) which convinced me to buy a T7. But like many others, I couldn't manage to reproduce the same result. That's when people post messages doubting their purchase as they don't have rapid success, and if you have too many of that type your reputation will suffer. It took a while, but I can now sharpen my chisels to the standards I desired, and I have my own little ways of correcting deficiencies.

When I was working (control systems for marine and offshore applications) any training I did, particularly onboard ship, I would show the ideal situation eg press the button and the fully automatic system would do the rest. The next step was to move to the stage of what to do when it doesn't work, and go through manual recovery process to shut a system down or make it safe. Then get into the rectification phase. The more this type of recovery type work was done for different scenarios, getting the customer's staff to be hands on and do it, the better their understanding and increased confidence. I also made sure that the manuals incorporated a similar approach.

This is what could be done for chisel sharpening (and other Tormek items). Identify the types of problems experienced with photos/videos and show the tweaks etc of how to get round them. If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is a video with audio worth?

Hi Robin

Great point...I agree entirely.....all manufacturers seem "scared" to tell it how it is...they want their products to seem like a magic bullet cure and thats how the marketing folks tend to position them....in glorious winning settings :-)

I think thats what this knowledgebase idea is all about...I called it the manual/training you always wanted.  Its exactly as you describe in your working life....you want to give students the answers to all the bear traps they might encounter.  Manufacturers often shy away from that....let them buy now and find the lumps later!  Well we've all found the lumps and guess what...we still love the thing.  Now lets grow up and recognise that operator error and a few foibles with the jigs , stones etc is the real learning issue...lets get on with giving all the tools people need to get the job done.

[grepper]

I totally agree about the lack of training material.  I only got my T-7 last September, and it became apparent very quickly that it takes is a lot of acquired skill, and I quickly wished for advice from experienced users.

This forum in invaluable in that respect, so I am thankful for it's existence.  Where else would one turn?

[Rob]

Agreed.

[grepper]

In the software biz, training and self-help are everything.  Even so, you may need to end up serving many thousands of tech support requests per month.  It is very beneficial to a company and to customers alike to have excellent, well designed training materials as well as users helping users.  Happy customers is what it is all about.

Tormek is based in Sweden.  So, how to handle training/support in many different languages?  You either have to staff up, or provide other avenues to assist your users.  I get the idea that Tormek is more geared to producing this fine equipment, than a tech support outfit. 

One easy to implement and very effective method is a user forum.  A little long in tooth these days, but welcome and effective nonetheless.

[Rob]

Tormek really remind me of Microsoft in the sense that they seem to know their core business is making tin!  With Microsoft, its making software.  They dont want to know about services....services are for people based businesses....we make tin around here.  Companies that want to manufacture and allow other specialists (with local market knowledge) to distribute are fine and dandy.  Its a model that has been working well for a long time.

My guess is that the big challenge for all the players in this paricular food chain is that there simply isnt any revenue in the services business.  I mean be honest...would you pay for a Tormek training class?  Would you spend say $200 to go somewhere when all you really need is a solution to one particularly niggly problem with a jig or your approach.  Maybe you'd pay for a training DVD?  Well now, there's an interesting proposition...would you pay $25 for a well thought through training DVD.  I might...but would I write one though knowing that within 30 seconds of my sunk production cost of several thousand dollars that it would be ripped off and all over youtube?

So its a difficult call for the service businesses I think due to the nature of the digital medium....is there an after market for training DVD's or a paid download per jig...I dont know.  Can you protect digital copy from being ripped and bunged onto Youtube....I doubt it?  So why would anyone sink the cost?

So..we could.....do a collaborative effort...for ourselves and this community.  Not for money, just cos it needs doing and we'd be genuinely helping folks...we'd be putting some good out into the world.  Goodness only knows...theres already plenty of bad out there!

[Herman Trivilino]

I have only been a member since 2009. At that time, no one had posted the fifty posts in order to qualify as a junior member.  Of those actively posting at that time, only Herman and I are still active.  The most active posts only had around twenty postings.

Ken, I can't be sure of this but perhaps back in 2009 the forum relocated and my membership started over as I had to register again.  Something like that anyway, if I recall.  It seems like I've been a member longer than since 2009.

Anyway, I think the Swedes do monitor this forum.

[Herman Trivilino]

Right now there are a variety of videos on the Tormek website.  As well as many others on YouTube.

Perhaps this is enough, but I believe a wiki created cooperatively by the members of this forum would be a good way to experiment with making more information available to more people.

[Rob]

Really??

As far as I was aware they only produce two specific DVD's...one is the original thats shipped with the machine when you buy it and one is Jeff's which is part of the woodturning box set with all the jigs.

I wasnt aware you could purchase any seperate training materials....unless that footage has been further split into jig specific dvd's.

Out of their movie materials, only the stuff Jeff presented is actually really useful when learning what to do.  The oroginal Tormek stuff (which is all on youtube incidentally) is basically just a massive Jigfest advertisment....you could in no way call it instructional.  The drill jig and stones promo they paid Alan Holtham to do is OK because he's a good presenter too....but for my money...he hasn't earned the right like Jeff has.  He's just not put the time and years in like Jeff has...personally I cant fathom why they dont have Jeff plastered all over their marketing...lets face it he's actually the global public face of the company.

[Herman Trivilino]

As far as I was aware they only produce two specific DVD's...one is the original thats shipped with the machine when you buy it and one is Jeff's which is part of the woodturning box set with all the jigs.

The videos I speak of are not for sale.  They're just viewable directly off the web site.

[Rob]

Right you are...theyre the ones that are all already on Youtube....theres nothing new there.  Cycles back to the point which is that Tormek arent in the business of doing training.

[Herman Trivilino]

Tormek also has them posted on their web site with each jig so that's a more convenient arrangement.  As we're saying though, there's a lot of room for improvement.

[Jeff Farris]

The sad fact of the matter is, gentlemen, that delving into potential problems in an environment that would be viewed by potential customers is never, ever going to be a good idea. In a video, particularly an online video, you have about 3 minutes to get your point across, at the very best. If you start explaining things that might go wrong and what to do about them, attention would be lost. Even worse, those on the fence will fall the wrong way, because none of the other options have any potential downsides (according to their promotional material). It would be nice if potential customers would recognize that the manufacturer is trying to be honest and open, but it just doesn't work that way. I promise you, I'm speaking from first-hand experience.