Rock Hard Felt Wheels

[BPalv]

This will be a somewhat lengthy post so I apologize in advance.

I've been sharpening knives all my life but about 8 years ago my kids bought me a set of Shun's.  Ever since I've been attempting to get my other knives as sharp.  Next came a Work Sharp, then a KO work sharp, then a Rikon 1x30, then another, next came a Wen then a buffer for Slotted paper wheels and finally a Tormek.  I am now sharpening for clients.
After reading "knife Deburring" I have attempted to re create his techniques but am really struggling.  I can get knives to 50 on the BESS using leather belts on the 1x30 using a variety of compounds but 50 is not attainable most of the time and I have to settle for 70 to 100 scores.  EDIT: Depending on the steel of course.
I just set up my paper wheels with 6 micron polycrystalline diamonds and .25 mono diamonds with chromium oxide.  I am able to improve the edge on edges ground on the Tormek but really struggling with convex edges.
Which brings me to my question...
What benefit does a rock hard felt wheel bring to the table?  How do you measure that benefit?  Is it a worthwhile investment or not?

No I don't want to sharpen everyone's knives to 50, but if I want to I would like to be able to consistently.

Thanks for your input,
Al

[Thread Killer]

Y'all got some lofty goals!  You SETTLE for 70-100 on the Bess? I would love to settle for that. ymmv Can't be of help, btaim Maybe your goals are not reasonable, but that is not for me to set.  Good luck on your endeavors.

[Sir Amwell]

I can really sympathise with you here. I spent a long time trying to get Vadims protocols to work consistently with Tormek, rock hard felt wheel then slotted paper wheels with diamond pastes. I gave up in the end having identified that the problem was with the rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond. I could virtually never get it to progress in the right direction according to Vadims step by step protocols.
I have asked several times on the forum for others experiences/opinions on this with mixed replies so not got anywhere really. If I could get some concrete replies as to proper use or tips I might reconsider using it in my set up.
I'm sharpening lots of knives and gave up chasing sub 50 Bess and am happy with anything around 100, which indicates to me that I've apexed and completely removed the root of the burr. After a while the Bess tester becomes almost redundant as experience tells that you've achieved around a hundred. If I'm having trouble then the tester is still a useful tool.
So you are doing incredibly well with your 50 Bess scores!
But you've got that itch that needs to be scratched!
Maybe others can help you (and me) with the felt wheel issue?
As has been pointed out before, Vadim was obviously a master sharpener with amazing skills and a feel for it. Also he advocated 12 dps for most knives which I think will lower the Bess scores slightly. I standardise at 15 dps and it's not uncommon to achieve 70-80 Bess with my speedy protocols. Vadim no doubt would have got that to 50-60!
Best of luck.

[tgbto]

I don't have a lot of experience with my rock hard felt wheel. However, having sharpened maybe 20 knives on it, I find I have good results (ie 20 BESS higher) results with hard steels (63+ HRC). With standard steels, I'm actually worsening my BESS scores.

I probably don't use it right, but now I'm more after edge retention than initial sharpness.

[BPalv]

I can really sympathise with you here. I spent a long time trying to get Vadims protocols to work consistently with Tormek, rock hard felt wheel then slotted paper wheels with diamond pastes. I gave up in the end having identified that the problem was with the rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond. I could virtually never get it to progress in the right direction according to Vadims step by step protocols.
I have asked several times on the forum for others experiences/opinions on this with mixed replies so not got anywhere really. If I could get some concrete replies as to proper use or tips I might reconsider using it in my set up.
I'm sharpening lots of knives and gave up chasing sub 50 Bess and am happy with anything around 100, which indicates to me that I've apexed and completely removed the root of the burr. After a while the Bess tester becomes almost redundant as experience tells that you've achieved around a hundred. If I'm having trouble then the tester is still a useful tool.
So you are doing incredibly well with your 50 Bess scores!
But you've got that itch that needs to be scratched!
Maybe others can help you (and me) with the felt wheel issue?
As has been pointed out before, Vadim was obviously a master sharpener with amazing skills and a feel for it. Also he advocated 12 dps for most knives which I think will lower the Bess scores slightly. I standardise at 15 dps and it's not uncommon to achieve 70-80 Bess with my speedy protocols. Vadim no doubt would have got that to 50-60!
Best of luck.

Thank you for your reply.
My initial thoughts are I'm not able to accurately set the angle.  I've been using a the new angle setting device, I'll try the software today.  The other possibility is that I only have one buffer so I don't have the progression of smaller micron grit on the paper wheels.  Vadim stressed the need to go through a progression.
I also set quality kitchen knives at 15 dps.
And, just for the record, I'm not trying to sharpen everyone's knives that sharp, just mine for the challenge.

[BPalv]

Along this line of thought... I am able to sharpen quality steel to sub 100's on the BESS using aluminum oxide belts and leather strops.  The Tormek with a 1000 CBN wheel only nets me 180 on the BESS.  That is after much stropping.
I'm wondering if using a leather belt with stropping compound on a low speed 1x30 Rikon actually burnishes the plasticized metal across the edge giving the knife a false edge of junk, but thin. Anyone know of any tests that have demonstrated that?

[RickKrung]

I've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS 100, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent.  I'm only sharpening standard steels.

Looking through the discussion, I do not see where anyone says much about the other aspects of the setup, some details that Vadim established as important.  Using a Frontal Vertical Base for setting up the USB for clearance and angle control during the honing process. And angles set higher or lower than the grinding angle, depending on the type of steel.  It may be reasonable to assume that you guys are also doing this, but it would be good to know this is the case. 

Because I'm only sharpening standard steels, I'm always using an angle 1º to 2º higher than the sharpening angle, which is usually around 16º.  My grinding steps are 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE Tormek diamond wheels, Tormek SJ and then the rock hard felt/1µ diamond paste and stropping on hanging leather strop. All the grinding steps are done at the same grinding angle, from the read USB, edge-leading.  Only the rock hard felt wheel angle is changed for honing, from the FVB/front USB, edge-trailing.

[Sir Amwell]

Hi Rick. Thanks for your reply. Yes, for me you can take it as given that I'm well set and accustomed to altering honing angles accurately depending on steel and edge angle and using FVB.I'm interested to note in your post that you use the felt wheel just prior to a final strop on hanging leather.
I think the process I've been using is the same.
BUT, for standard mainstream steels the felt wheel, for me , invariably increases the Bess score significantly and then subsequent final honing, be it hanging leather or paper wheels with diamond lowers it a little but never in line with for example Vadims protocols.
So is there a lack of technique here? Or is there something else I'm missing?
The only time I've found a benefit with using the felt wheel is with Global knives as per Vadims suggestions, ie + 0.8 degrees on felt wheel then exact on leather wheel.
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.

[John_B]

I have only peeked down the rabbit hole of honing and use an extra leather wheel with 1µ diamonds followed by a hanging strop. I believe the key to increased sharpness is using progressively lighter pressure as you move along each step. With my final diamond hone I exert not much more than the knife's weight. Since I do not have a means of accurately testing this theory other's opinions are welcome.

[BPalv]

I've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent.  I'm only sharpening standard steels.

Looking through the discussion, I do not see where anyone says much about the other aspects of the setup, some details that Vadim established as important.  Using a Frontal Vertical Base for setting up the USB for clearance and angle control during the honing process. And angles set higher or lower than the grinding angle, depending on the type of steel.  It may be reasonable to assume that you guys are also doing this, but it would be good to know this is the case. 

Because I'm only sharpening standard steels, I'm always using an angle 1º to 2º higher than the sharpening angle, which is usually around 16º.  My grinding steps are 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE Tormek diamond wheels, Tormek SJ and then the rock hard felt/1µ diamond paste and stropping on hanging leather strop. All the grinding steps are done at the same grinding angle, from the read USB, edge-leading.  Only the rock hard felt wheel angle is changed for honing, from the FVB/front USB, edge-trailing.

Your consistent BESS number wasn't in your post.
I am just getting everything dialed in with my paper wheel/FVB setup.  And, I just started using the Tormek honing wheel.  (I have been using a leather belt on a low speed Rikon bench grinder).

Initially I used the angle setter and found that to be too inaccurate for this purpose.  After using the app to set my angles I did have some success with both the Tormek leather wheel and the slotted paper wheels.

Preliminary, I imagine Vadim's results might be able to reproduced but measurements would have to be exact!  I don't know about you, but it is very challenging to set a difference of .1 on the support bar.  It's even more challenging using my FVB setup for the paper wheels as the brackets sent from Tormek have some slop in them.

To summarize, if I would be able to exactly match all of the different FVB angles and had 4 slotted paper wheels with the specified grit diamond pastes and a rock hard felt wheel, a steady hand and a lot of practice I might be able to recreate his results.  My shop runith over... I just don't have space for an additional buffer.... Yet.

In the meantime, I find that if I hone on the leather wheel at the exact angle lightly I can achieve 120 on the Bess... even at 20 degrees.  I am able to achieve even better results taking it to the paper wheels and following protocols depending on the steel type for at least the first pass.  Subsequent passes have only degraded the edge so far.

And I said all that to say, I guess I'll spring for a rock hard paper wheel as some have success with it. I do intend to follow this journey to the end ( either me or the money runs out).

Thank you for all of your comments and expand sharing your expertise.
Al

[RickKrung]

I've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent....snip...

Your consistent BESS number wasn't in your post. ...snip...

100 (now it is)

[RickKrung]

Hi Rick. Thanks for your reply.
...snip...
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.

Sir Amwell,

I have not been ignoring you request, just had to get through some stuff to were I could think more clearly.  I'm not sure that has helped much, however, as I'm not sure how much I can say about my process that will inform much. 

I use a sequence of CBN/diamond wheels, 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE.  I start at the heel and move to the tip, mostly lifting.  I DO go back the other way often.  Pressure is light to moderate at most.  I take as many passes on the CBN as it takes to raise a burr from both sides.  Sometimes there are portions, mainly in the middle that take longer to raise a burr, but I work nearly all the length across the non-curved portion.  Once the burr has been raised, it doesn't take but a pass or two on the DC, DF and DE wheels to refine the edge.  I use black marker on EVERY edge, EVERY wheel change.  In part as this helps me know when I've ground enough with each wheel, as well as checking the burr under mangification often.  I use the Kingmas 60X hand microscope for that. 

Then it is to the SJ wheel, at the same angle as the previous wheels.  For angle setting, I use only the distance from the USB to the wheel surface, using one of CB's calculators, calipers and a rubber band stretch from the USB to the axle shaft.  Sometimes I have to remove the nut to expose enough shaft to hold the rubber band.  Again, use black marker and again only a couple passes, pressure is about the same as with the others.  All of this is done edge-leading from the rear USB, while sitting in front of the T8.

Honing is done edge-trailing on the rock hard felt wheel, using 1µ diamond paste, applied sparingly and spread out as evenly as possible.  Angle is set 1-2º higher than the grinding angle, again using the distance to the wheel, rubber band, calculator and calipers.  I think I use more pressure in this operation but only a couple passes.  Final strop on a hanging leather (kangaroo tail, from Vadim) strop.  Angle is fairly flat, so lower than honing or grinding, I believe. 

A long time ago, when I was doing BESS testing, the best I could do was around 90 BESS, but was consistently around 100-110. 

Hope this helps,

Rick

[Sir Amwell]

Thanks for that Rick.
One last question.
When you say 1 micron diamond paste.
You literally mean the oily paste?
Or the emulsion (usually in alcohol)?
If the paste, where do you get it from?
Regards, Simon.

[RickKrung]

Guess it would be the oily paste.  What Vadim originally recommended, before switching to emulsions.  I started using it before the emulsions and I never had any reason to switch.  Image below came from Knife Grinders web site, sometime after he found the sprays. 

THK Online Store is where I got mine. I saw a link to something on eBay but did not look at it.  I bought a range of grits, from 15µ down to 0.25µ, but I've only ever used the 1µ. Second image is what I use, about half down after six years, so it doesn't take much.  Its messy.  When you get to the tips, little strings peel of and get on the machine and table.  Takes more than alcohol to clean up, residual on the blades and other surfaces.  I'm sure it would make a mess on a felt wheel that would be hard to clean, so if you try it, I think you'd be dedicating the wheel to that only. 

I've never used the emulsions or sprays, so I have no reference for comparison.

Rick

[RickKrung]

I wonder if this is part of the equation:

Excerpt from Tormek Compound or Venev Diamond? thread:

Update:
Regarding my BESS scores, I went back to Vadim's book and realized that I'd missed something. At the beginning of the Deburring chapter, he states that positive burr steels need to be honed higher than the edge angle. Specifically 2 degrees higher for mainstream steels. Then later in the chapter where he discusses his "differential honing", he states that his FIRST pass is at exactly the edge angle, THEN he goes to the higher angle. When I did that I suddenly started getting 70 to 90 BESS scores.
...snip...

Given that before honing with the 1µ micron diamonds at a higher angle, I first use the SJ wheel at the same angle as sharpening, perhaps it is functioning in the manner as Vadim's "differential honing".  I've read and taken that use of the SJ wheel is not really honing, but rather polishing, but maybe it is more than that. 

Rick