KS-123 For Chisels

[Huang]

I have a fickle relationship with my K8. The KS-123 is a game changer for knife setup, I just ordered one, but have not been able to actually touch one. I'm thinking why can I not use it for chisels and other tools?

[tgbto]

I have a fickle relationship with my K8. The KS-123 is a game changer for knife setup, I just ordered one, but have not been able to actually touch one. I'm thinking why can I not use it for chisels and other tools?

For one, the KS-123 can be used because you can position it next to the knife while it is being held by the jig and still measure the protusion distance (because obviously the knife is wider that the jig). For tools such as chisels, the jig being wider than the tool, you can't use it in such a fashion.

So you'd have to measure the protrusion distance, recreate it with a KG/SVM jig and a straight piece of metal to actually use the KS-123 the way it is intended. Quite tedious if you ask me. The AngleMaster is much more suitable for those one-beveled, large tools. Oh, and calculators always work, as long as you can measure a protrusion distance, and USB-stone distance.

[Ken S]

In one of the Star Trek movies, Engineer Scotty makes the comment, "The right tool for the right job". I know skilled sharpeners who use the Anglemaster well. I am not one of them. Many years ago, I designed the kenjig as an alternative to using the Anglemaster with knives. In my opinion, the Anglemaster is an excellent tool, the right tool for setting chisels, but not for knives, at least not for me.

I really like the new KS-123. I was surprised by its very affordable price. For all of the complaining about the KJ-45 not having an adjustable end stop, the combination of the KJ-45 and the KS-123 will serve the knife sharpening needs of many/most Tormek users very well. Honestly, how many of us are really high volume knife sharpeners?

Knife and chisel sharpening are different. Tormek now has very efficient tools for each.

Ken

[tgbto]

Fortunately nobody mentioned the lack of adjustability of the KJ in this thread, let alone complained about it ^^

[Ken S]

Even more fortunately, there is almost no need for adjustability with chisels. I have not needed to make adjustments for my chisels in over ten years. Chisels are normally ground with a 25° bevel. I use the TTS-100 for routine chisel sharpening. I set the Distance between the grinding wheel and the support bar using the B hole. This has the additional benefit of self correcting for any variation in wheel diameter. I set the Projection by scribing a line on a blank piece of labelmaker tape with a fine tip Sharpie placed in one of the three slots of the TTS-100. I did use the Anglemaster to set only the initial chisel.

I make no claim of inventing this. It is merely applying the Tormek method of setting up turning gouges to chisels (and bench plane irons).

Ken

[Huang]

@KenS do you then use SVS-50 for the chisel? Your method sounds neat an repeatable I just am having a hard time visualizing it.

[Ken S]

Huang,

My last school training in math was almost sixty years ago, so I am no math wizard.
Several things may help you visualize my chisel setting method.

Watch the online class on turning tools. Tormek designed the TTS-100 for turning gouges. I think it is a brilliant tool. It is unfortunate that Tormek never extended its use to chisels and plane irons. Here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/live/7aHmc43RUY4?si=ogNnvw9dE7YmyAr5

As you are watching the bowl gouge set up with the TTS-100, imagine a flat chisel instead of a gouge. The two holes provide a fixed Distance between the grinding wheel and the support bar. The closer B hole is ideal for chisels.

With the Distance fixed, for the 25° bevel angle you want there is only one correct Projection. I placed a chisel in the SE-76 or SE-77 square edge jig. Using the fixed Distance, I adjusted the Projection using the WM-200 Anglemaster. This may take a little longer than using the Microadjust; however, it is only necessary for the first chisel.

With the Projection set, I placed the jigged chisel in one of the three slots of the TTS-100 and scribed a line with a Sharpie to mark 25°. That is "one and done".
Since that first chisel, I have never had to measure another chisel.

You are not limited to 25°. I originally set and scribed lines for several bevel angles. In practice, I have only used 25°.

Dutchman posted his grinding tables on the forum. They are pinned on the top of the knife sharpening section. They are the basis for my kenjig and the origin for the various knife sharpening apps.

The online class with Stig shows an excellent tip for grinding square edges on chisels.

Please feel free to ask more questions if this is not clear. It is easy, once you understand it

Ken

[Huang]

Thanks Ken, I will go out to the shop and try after watching the video this week. Oh yea after I buy a TTS-100 too.

[RichColvin]

This thread:  

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4971.msg35710.html#msg35710

Addressed this topic, and resulted in this jig:

https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#ProjJigTTS100

[Ken S]

A tool for setting grinding angles ideally should excel in three functions:
1) setting the Distance between the support and the grinding wheel
2) automatically compensating for different wheel diameters, especially for wheel
   wear
3) setting the Projection

The TTS-100 excels in all three of these functions with woodturning tools, for which it was designed.

Used for chisels and plane irons, it excels in the first two functions and can be adapted to be quite adequate for the third function. In my opinion, it can give superior accuracy than any programs which rely on measuring with digital calipers. This is a statement which requires supporting evidence.

In the precision machine shop environment, measuring tools are chosen for their inherent accuracy. The top of the totem pole are precision gage blocks. Gage blocks are precision ground from carbide or hardened tool steel. They are made in three grades, shop floor, inspection and laboratory. Laboratory grade blocks have tolerances within millionths of an inch and are returned in regularintervals to the National Bureau of Standards for recalibration. They are kept in climate controlled rooms and reserved for the most demanding work.

Our work setting angles with the Tormek is far less demanding. In fact, even digital calipers are far more accurate than is required. The weakest link is any system which requires constant measuring. The benefit of a tool like the TTS-100 is repeatability. Whether the actual angle is plus or minus half a degree off of 25°, or whatever angle is chosen really does not matter. Even though the TTS-100 is plastic, the settings for all the chisels will be consistent, as no individual measurement is required.

The setting apps are useful tools. I just don't think they are needed for everyday chisel sharpening.

Ken 

[Huang]

Another question the actual sharpening is done edge trailing, ie with the wheel turing away from the edge?

[Ken S]

Good question. Chisels are normally sharpened edge leading. This allows greater control by observing the water flow over the blade. If you have not watched the online class on chisels and plane blades, I highly recommend it. It is available in Swedish, English, French, and German. Here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/live/wMATay8ITE8?si=XviTSUjkEuQmGo9s

Ken

[tgbto]

In addition, as a general rule, edge leading tends to avoid creating a thin, fragile burr that can get torn off when honing, messing up the apex.

The only downsides to edge leading that I can think of are :
- more aggressive at the APEX, but then also more efficient
- higher risk of "catching", but that won't happen with jigs that are fixed wrt the support bar.

[Ken S]

I believe the FVB (frontal vertical base invented by our late member Wootz) has been and will continue to be a game changer. My first experience with grinding away or into was with Steve Bottorff. Steve grinds almost all of the knives he sharpens away. The all to often overlooked factor in this is that from long experience and the time pressures of a busy farmers market schedule, Steve became very proficient in freehand sharpening. Freehand sharpening is much safer grinding away.

The FVB opens up new options by allowing vertical positioning in grinding away. I have long recommended having at least a couple 3/4" bench chisels (I recommend Irwin Blue Chip chisels. They are reasonably priced and reasonable quality.) Use them as learning/practice tools. I recommend having at least two in the same width. I actually have around a dozen, all 3/4" width.

Wootz (Vadim of Knife Grinders) was a real sharpening pioneer. He did much to advance sharpening. However, he was not the only pioneer and sharpening continues to evolve. Reasonably priced, reasonable quality learning/practice tools are essential parts of our learning kits.

Catches can be reduced by slightly rounding the two corners of the grinding wheels. ((Do not do this with diamond or CBN wheels or you will ruin them.)

Ken

[John Hancock Sr]

So you'd have to measure the protrusion distance ...

Even then it would not be accurate since the jig is specifically designed to use with the knife jigs which center lines are sitting a specific distance above the bar. I have not checked but if the Square Edge jig is a different distance above the bar then the geometry will be out.