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#91
General Tormek Questions / Re: Beginner Sharpening Proble...
Last post by RodC - January 23, 2023, 06:35:36 PMThanks guys for the replies. I am using the SG-200 stone. One thing that I just thought of - the T-4 water trough does not have a magnet to collect the swarf. Apparently the T-8's does. That could be an issue, and I can easily address that. Looking over past posts, it looks like a 3/4" super magnet glued to the outside back vertical wall would help with this issue. Easy enough to try. I'll probably tape it on at first, then maybe use "Goop" as one post suggested.
Another thing I should do is try sharpening a standard wood chisel - I have some Irwin/Marples Blue chisels as discussed in the Beginner's Guide in this forum. That would let me do an apples-to-apples comparison with what experienced operator's results are.
It seems to me that the swarf is clogging the surface of the stone, possibly reducing its cutting effectiveness significantly. And I need to address that. Does this seem likely?
I may have other issues that I need to pay attention to and adjust, but the swarf issue seems primary to me.
Another thing I should do is try sharpening a standard wood chisel - I have some Irwin/Marples Blue chisels as discussed in the Beginner's Guide in this forum. That would let me do an apples-to-apples comparison with what experienced operator's results are.
It seems to me that the swarf is clogging the surface of the stone, possibly reducing its cutting effectiveness significantly. And I need to address that. Does this seem likely?
I may have other issues that I need to pay attention to and adjust, but the swarf issue seems primary to me.
#92
General Tormek Questions / Re: Beginner Sharpening Proble...
Last post by Ken S - January 23, 2023, 05:56:51 PMRick,
I agree with your thoughts. However, We have not addressed the real issue. Sharpening a carving chisel should not take forty minutes. While accepting the possibility that something may be defective with Rod's T4, it seems strange to me that I do not remember similar complaints. If there was indeed a design flaw with the T4, we should have received hundreds of posts.
The T4 has an eight year warranty. This really needs to be referred to support.
(support@tormek.se). I would not spend any money for other equipment or wheels until support settles the issue.
Ken
I agree with your thoughts. However, We have not addressed the real issue. Sharpening a carving chisel should not take forty minutes. While accepting the possibility that something may be defective with Rod's T4, it seems strange to me that I do not remember similar complaints. If there was indeed a design flaw with the T4, we should have received hundreds of posts.
The T4 has an eight year warranty. This really needs to be referred to support.
(support@tormek.se). I would not spend any money for other equipment or wheels until support settles the issue.
Ken
#93
General Tormek Questions / Re: Beginner Sharpening Proble...
Last post by RickKrung - January 23, 2023, 04:16:13 PMIf you like using the USB in the vertical position for using the stone grader, and don't like moving the one you have from the horizontal position, an easy solution is to get a second USB. I have five or six, one being the extended length one.
Also, I think we should take RodC at his word. He has been very clear and succinct. He has the SG-200 stone. He only just got the T4 and specifically mentioned the "SG" wheel and said nothing about having bought any other wheel, let alone the SJ wheel.
RodC, if you come to the point where you really don't like how long it is taking and want a coarser wheel to speed things up, one of the easiest and cheapest ways is to mount a traditional bench grinder stone. There has been a good bit of discussion of this on this forum. KenS first mentioned it, I believe, and this is what I did quite a while ago. Norton 3X wheels work very well, 60 or 80 grit. They are 8" diameter, so would fit the T4 nicely. I have a T8, so had to significantly change the USB when using it, but it was worth it. I subsequently was gifted a 10" traditional grindstone, but anything like this will always be a different diameter from your other wheels, so changing the USB is a given (until you get into fixed diameter wheels like diamond and CBN).
Mounting a traditional grindstone on the T4/T7/8 requires a shaft bushing to adapt the usual 1" bore to the 12mm shaft and some flange bushings. Ken used PVC pipe, drilled out to 12mm and fender washers. Because I have means, I machined these, bushing from SS, flange washers from aluminum. These wheels are trued using the same Tormek Truing Tools.
I believe there may be adapter bushings available, but I don't know where. Someone posted to the forum about this. I've included a photo that I believe was from that thread.
If you want to keep a USB setting, even though it the USB needs to be removed, you can add another Micro-Adjust nut, to serve as a lock nut, preserving the setting. If, by chance, an alternative setting were further down the threaded shaft, a third Micro-Adjust nut could be used for that setting and removed when returning to the fixed setting. Seems unlikely if want to set the USB very close to the wheel, as you would for using the stone grader, but conceptually it could happen.
Rick
Also, I think we should take RodC at his word. He has been very clear and succinct. He has the SG-200 stone. He only just got the T4 and specifically mentioned the "SG" wheel and said nothing about having bought any other wheel, let alone the SJ wheel.
RodC, if you come to the point where you really don't like how long it is taking and want a coarser wheel to speed things up, one of the easiest and cheapest ways is to mount a traditional bench grinder stone. There has been a good bit of discussion of this on this forum. KenS first mentioned it, I believe, and this is what I did quite a while ago. Norton 3X wheels work very well, 60 or 80 grit. They are 8" diameter, so would fit the T4 nicely. I have a T8, so had to significantly change the USB when using it, but it was worth it. I subsequently was gifted a 10" traditional grindstone, but anything like this will always be a different diameter from your other wheels, so changing the USB is a given (until you get into fixed diameter wheels like diamond and CBN).
Mounting a traditional grindstone on the T4/T7/8 requires a shaft bushing to adapt the usual 1" bore to the 12mm shaft and some flange bushings. Ken used PVC pipe, drilled out to 12mm and fender washers. Because I have means, I machined these, bushing from SS, flange washers from aluminum. These wheels are trued using the same Tormek Truing Tools.
I believe there may be adapter bushings available, but I don't know where. Someone posted to the forum about this. I've included a photo that I believe was from that thread.
If you want to keep a USB setting, even though it the USB needs to be removed, you can add another Micro-Adjust nut, to serve as a lock nut, preserving the setting. If, by chance, an alternative setting were further down the threaded shaft, a third Micro-Adjust nut could be used for that setting and removed when returning to the fixed setting. Seems unlikely if want to set the USB very close to the wheel, as you would for using the stone grader, but conceptually it could happen.
Rick
#94
General Tormek Questions / Re: Beginner Sharpening Proble...
Last post by tgbto - January 23, 2023, 09:59:04 AMHi Rod,
You're right, it takes twice as many operations, but hopefully each one lasts half as long as it would on a single-beveled chisel the same thickness...
Among the videos you've watched, have you come across the recent one on sharpening pressure ? There is a very interesting discussion around 20 minutes on how a high pressure can be counterproductive when you have just graded the stone coarse. And also around 25' on how lessening the pressure just a bit might increase the sharpening speed.
The SG wheel should not collect too much metal as it usually goes with the water and then is collected by the magnet in the trough, especially with not too much pressure.
And as far as the stone grader is concerned, you can apply it freehand or with the usb in the horizontal position, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If as Ken suggests you're using the SJ, then indeed it will collect metal long before it sharpens your tools, and you will probably reduce it to a pebble before you've sharpened much. But if you're using the SG stone, grading it is not so much about removing metal than it is about changing the grit, and therefore the way pressure is applied to the blade.
IF TL/DR: maybe try applying less pressure with the chisel.
Cheers,
Nick.
You're right, it takes twice as many operations, but hopefully each one lasts half as long as it would on a single-beveled chisel the same thickness...
Among the videos you've watched, have you come across the recent one on sharpening pressure ? There is a very interesting discussion around 20 minutes on how a high pressure can be counterproductive when you have just graded the stone coarse. And also around 25' on how lessening the pressure just a bit might increase the sharpening speed.
The SG wheel should not collect too much metal as it usually goes with the water and then is collected by the magnet in the trough, especially with not too much pressure.
And as far as the stone grader is concerned, you can apply it freehand or with the usb in the horizontal position, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
If as Ken suggests you're using the SJ, then indeed it will collect metal long before it sharpens your tools, and you will probably reduce it to a pebble before you've sharpened much. But if you're using the SG stone, grading it is not so much about removing metal than it is about changing the grit, and therefore the way pressure is applied to the blade.
IF TL/DR: maybe try applying less pressure with the chisel.
Cheers,
Nick.
#95
General Tormek Questions / Re: Beginner Sharpening Proble...
Last post by Ken S - January 23, 2023, 09:22:56 AMWelcome to the forum, Rod.
My first thought is, are you using the SG-200 grinding wheel or the SJ-200 wheel? The SJ-200 is a 4000 grit wheel designed for polishing rather than sharpening. I once watched half of a 42 minute long you tube of a guy trying to sharpen an almost sharp kitchen knife with an SJ. It was painful to watch, like watching paint dry.
The SJ 4000 grit wheel should only be used after the edge is already sharp to polish out grinding scratches. Also, it is not designed to be used with the stone grader.
Woodcarving tools are made of carbon steel. If they were made of a harder "supersteel" alloy, they would be very difficult to sharpen. They are generally used with fairly soft wood and either pushed with hand pressure or lightly tapped with a small mallet. You can feel when they first start to lose their keen edge and get harder to push. Unless the edge is damaged or is very dull, using the SG graded somewhat fine should sharpen them. One minute should see the job almost completed.
If this is not your problem, please post again. We will get past this.
Ken
My first thought is, are you using the SG-200 grinding wheel or the SJ-200 wheel? The SJ-200 is a 4000 grit wheel designed for polishing rather than sharpening. I once watched half of a 42 minute long you tube of a guy trying to sharpen an almost sharp kitchen knife with an SJ. It was painful to watch, like watching paint dry.
The SJ 4000 grit wheel should only be used after the edge is already sharp to polish out grinding scratches. Also, it is not designed to be used with the stone grader.
Woodcarving tools are made of carbon steel. If they were made of a harder "supersteel" alloy, they would be very difficult to sharpen. They are generally used with fairly soft wood and either pushed with hand pressure or lightly tapped with a small mallet. You can feel when they first start to lose their keen edge and get harder to push. Unless the edge is damaged or is very dull, using the SG graded somewhat fine should sharpen them. One minute should see the job almost completed.
If this is not your problem, please post again. We will get past this.
Ken
#96
General Tormek Questions / Beginner Sharpening Problems
Last post by RodC - January 23, 2023, 06:30:56 AMI got a T-4 recently and have been using it to sharpen woodcarving chisels. My T-4 has the SG-200 stone. I am using the SVS-38 jig. I am sharpening Pfeil flat woodcarving chisels (#1 x 18 mm). It has been taking me a long time to sharpen a chisel - about 40 minutes or so. Note that a woodcarving chisel has a double bevel - the same bevel on each side. So you are doing twice the sharpening work when compared to a regular wood chisel. After reading on the forum, I see that there is a learning curve and I am trying get the process right.
When I see the various videos demonstrating the Tormek sharpening process, I hardly see any swarf at all on the wheel. In contrast here's what I see: First I clean the wheel of swarf if needed by using the coarse side of the stone grader for as long as it takes - a lot longer than the 30 seconds that the manual says - I probably take at least 60 seconds, applying heavy pressure. Then I set the grinding angle using the magic marker method. Next, I proceed to grind the bevel angle with the coarse grit. The wheel almost immediately starts showing streaks of swarf. These build up as I keep sharpening with the coarse grit. It takes around 5 - 10 minutes per side to get the coarse sharpening done. Is this normal? Should I stop and periodically remove the swarf with the stone grader? You are supposed to use the horizontal USB position with the SVS-38, but the recommendation is to use the vertical position for the stone grader - I guess to deliver more pressure onto the stone. Does this matter? I can't see moving the USB when in the middle of a sharpening session.
When I transition to fine sharpening, I use the stone grader long enough to remove the swarf - as already said, this is a lot longer than 30 seconds of heavy pressure. The fine sharpening takes awhile, too - maybe 5 minutes per side, but I do not usually see any swarf on the stone during this step.
Note that I complete one face of the chisel, doing the coarse and fine sharpening, before removing it from the SVS-38 to do the opposite. So I am using the stone grader 4 times per chisel.
I have tried some things to minimize the swarf problem, since I suspect that it is slowing down the sharpening process. I move the chisel across the stone when sharpening to try to use the whole stone and possibly distribute the swarf. I try to keep the water reservoir clean. I empty it when I am done sharpening and I clean it out when moving from coarse to fine sharpening. These things may have helped some in reducing the time it takes to sharpen, but I still wonder what is going on and what I can do to improve things.
Any insights would be appreciated.
When I see the various videos demonstrating the Tormek sharpening process, I hardly see any swarf at all on the wheel. In contrast here's what I see: First I clean the wheel of swarf if needed by using the coarse side of the stone grader for as long as it takes - a lot longer than the 30 seconds that the manual says - I probably take at least 60 seconds, applying heavy pressure. Then I set the grinding angle using the magic marker method. Next, I proceed to grind the bevel angle with the coarse grit. The wheel almost immediately starts showing streaks of swarf. These build up as I keep sharpening with the coarse grit. It takes around 5 - 10 minutes per side to get the coarse sharpening done. Is this normal? Should I stop and periodically remove the swarf with the stone grader? You are supposed to use the horizontal USB position with the SVS-38, but the recommendation is to use the vertical position for the stone grader - I guess to deliver more pressure onto the stone. Does this matter? I can't see moving the USB when in the middle of a sharpening session.
When I transition to fine sharpening, I use the stone grader long enough to remove the swarf - as already said, this is a lot longer than 30 seconds of heavy pressure. The fine sharpening takes awhile, too - maybe 5 minutes per side, but I do not usually see any swarf on the stone during this step.
Note that I complete one face of the chisel, doing the coarse and fine sharpening, before removing it from the SVS-38 to do the opposite. So I am using the stone grader 4 times per chisel.
I have tried some things to minimize the swarf problem, since I suspect that it is slowing down the sharpening process. I move the chisel across the stone when sharpening to try to use the whole stone and possibly distribute the swarf. I try to keep the water reservoir clean. I empty it when I am done sharpening and I clean it out when moving from coarse to fine sharpening. These things may have helped some in reducing the time it takes to sharpen, but I still wonder what is going on and what I can do to improve things.
Any insights would be appreciated.
#97
Tormek T-1 and T-2 / Re: Insufficient results T1
Last post by Ken S - January 21, 2023, 10:41:28 PMWelcome to the forum, Lars.
You are on the right path using a marker and checking your angle with a magnifying glass.
I started sharpening knives with my now thirty year old set of Henckels. I have gradually added five Victorinox fibrox knives. These, or comparable knives are reasonably priced quality knives. I use them in my kitchen and, primarily, as sharpening knives. They are made of good steel and reasonably sharp when new. My suggestion for you would be to purchase a couple of these knives. Start by sharpening a knife which is just not quite sharp. As you become fluent sharpening knives which need very little sharpening, add knives which require more work.
Keep at least one of these sharpening knives with your T1. Photographers used to keep a "Shirley" negative in the darkroom. A Shirley was a portrait negative which required no special manipulation to make an excellent print. During a frustrating printing session, if the Shirley negative made an excellent print, the photographer knew the chemicals and photo paper were working properly. If not, they were the problem. If you have a difficult sharpening session, sharpen your "known easy" sharpening knife. If it sharpens easily, look at the other knife as a possible trouble source.
Keep us posted.
Ken
You are on the right path using a marker and checking your angle with a magnifying glass.
I started sharpening knives with my now thirty year old set of Henckels. I have gradually added five Victorinox fibrox knives. These, or comparable knives are reasonably priced quality knives. I use them in my kitchen and, primarily, as sharpening knives. They are made of good steel and reasonably sharp when new. My suggestion for you would be to purchase a couple of these knives. Start by sharpening a knife which is just not quite sharp. As you become fluent sharpening knives which need very little sharpening, add knives which require more work.
Keep at least one of these sharpening knives with your T1. Photographers used to keep a "Shirley" negative in the darkroom. A Shirley was a portrait negative which required no special manipulation to make an excellent print. During a frustrating printing session, if the Shirley negative made an excellent print, the photographer knew the chemicals and photo paper were working properly. If not, they were the problem. If you have a difficult sharpening session, sharpen your "known easy" sharpening knife. If it sharpens easily, look at the other knife as a possible trouble source.
Keep us posted.
Ken
#98
General Tormek Questions / "and everything in between"
Last post by Ken S - January 21, 2023, 10:07:38 PM"and everything in between"
I remember this distinctly from one of the Tormek online classes. (Unfortunately, I do not remember which class.
If anyone remembers and would reply with the class and time, I would be most appreciative.) The quote refers to the grit change with the stone grader.
The 220/1000 grit change with the stone grader is one of the sacred cows of Tormek technique. It is also not quite accurate. The stone grader is not like a light switch, either on or off (220 or 1000 grit). I first became aware of this when Stig told me about using "600 grit" to sharpen knives. "600 grit" is not an exact grit number; it doesn't have to be. It means a grit between minimum and maximum.
I do not find grit size of Tormek grinding wheels a meaningful number, beyond being a general indicator. I would expect a coarser grit number to cut faster. However, my 360 grit coarse diamond wheel cuts faster than my 220 grit SG. This seems logical to me;the diamond wheels are harder and the diamond grains are sharper. I think much more is involved than just grit size.
Instead of grit numbers, I think of using the stone grader in terms of more coarse to more fine. Like many of us, I was reluctant to use the stone grader for fear of "wearing out my precious Tormek grinding wheel". I gradually came to think of wearing my grinding wheel as a long-term consumable, like the brakes on a car.
When we compare the SG with superabrasive wheels, like diamond or CBN, we sometimes don't seem to get past the superabrasives not gradually losing diameter or needing truing with use. While this is true, we overlook the advantages of being able to change the "grit size" with the stone grader; reshape the stone; retrue the stone; or dress the stone to expose fresh sharp grains. These are serious advantages.
Ken
I remember this distinctly from one of the Tormek online classes. (Unfortunately, I do not remember which class.
If anyone remembers and would reply with the class and time, I would be most appreciative.) The quote refers to the grit change with the stone grader.
The 220/1000 grit change with the stone grader is one of the sacred cows of Tormek technique. It is also not quite accurate. The stone grader is not like a light switch, either on or off (220 or 1000 grit). I first became aware of this when Stig told me about using "600 grit" to sharpen knives. "600 grit" is not an exact grit number; it doesn't have to be. It means a grit between minimum and maximum.
I do not find grit size of Tormek grinding wheels a meaningful number, beyond being a general indicator. I would expect a coarser grit number to cut faster. However, my 360 grit coarse diamond wheel cuts faster than my 220 grit SG. This seems logical to me;the diamond wheels are harder and the diamond grains are sharper. I think much more is involved than just grit size.
Instead of grit numbers, I think of using the stone grader in terms of more coarse to more fine. Like many of us, I was reluctant to use the stone grader for fear of "wearing out my precious Tormek grinding wheel". I gradually came to think of wearing my grinding wheel as a long-term consumable, like the brakes on a car.
When we compare the SG with superabrasive wheels, like diamond or CBN, we sometimes don't seem to get past the superabrasives not gradually losing diameter or needing truing with use. While this is true, we overlook the advantages of being able to change the "grit size" with the stone grader; reshape the stone; retrue the stone; or dress the stone to expose fresh sharp grains. These are serious advantages.
Ken
#99
Tormek T-1 and T-2 / Re: Insufficient results T1
Last post by cbwx34 - January 21, 2023, 07:48:42 PMQuote from: Larsrise on January 21, 2023, 03:26:10 PMI recently bought a T1 expected to sharpen my knives myself instead of by a professional. Tormek advertise the product for homeowners, so you should expect to use the product with very little experience.
But no matter how precisely I follow online video or written guides I don't seem to get a satisfactory result.
Even though I grind several (+20) time on each side, and for several minutes I am not able to form this burr that is important according to videos. Should I always be abble to detect a burr ? Or will the steel quality impact on the burr-size ?
I use an angle of 15 degrees. And after the following honing the knives are not as sharp as expected. And nowhere near to pass the paper test.
I have used a marker and a magnifying glass to check the angle is ok. It seems so.
I am a not sure if I am using the right angle when honing. How critical is the honing angle? As there is no guide supplied.
And for how long should I hone How critical I cannot "hear the burr" as stated in some videos.
Does anyone have some tips for a frustrated amateur
I'll add to what Rick said... that the apex has not been reached. Sometimes, when changing angles, that last "little bit" of the previous angle, right at the edge, (almost microscopic), isn't ground away, and can take quite a bit to get there, especially on a fine wheel. Even marking the edge, and looking under magnification, it can be hard to see.
The best way to insure it, is to make sure you form a burr. Grind one side, until the burr is formed, then switch sides. (If you grind alternating each stroke, it would be harder to detect.)
Honing angle isn't "critical", as long as you hone near the sharpening angle. Once you create a burr, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to "hear" it.
When you sharpen a knife with a different method and different angle than what is currently on the knife, it can take a while to get it sharp. You might consider, for practice, taking another knife, match the angle, or even set a slightly higher angle, and practice on it, so it'll be easier to get thru the process... and learn a bit easier what to look for.
#100
Knife Sharpening / Re: 3D-printable pivot collar ...
Last post by ArtOfSharp - January 21, 2023, 06:41:31 PMNice work, thank you!
However, i do have a question...
How would a 3D printed screw (included in the files) compare to an off-the-shelf screw/bolt?
Have you tested it's strength to hold position?
And, have you tried to find an off-the-shelf screw/bolt and tested that against the 3D printed one?
However, i do have a question...
How would a 3D printed screw (included in the files) compare to an off-the-shelf screw/bolt?
Have you tested it's strength to hold position?
And, have you tried to find an off-the-shelf screw/bolt and tested that against the 3D printed one?