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Honing knives on T8 Black

Started by jimwillsher, August 04, 2023, 07:01:15 PM

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Dan

#30
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Dan

Quote from: Sir Amwell on August 18, 2023, 01:20:48 AMHi Dan. Ken is giving good advice. When I am doing a batch of knives I put them all at the same projection on my jigs for a given angle set up on grinding wheel on the T8. Set all those knives ready for honing. Then remove grind wheel and set up for honing on leather wheel with a FVB. Or your chosen honing method. The removal of the grinding wheel becomes less of an issue.
You will need more jigs though. I have 10 of the old svm45 which makes it easy for volume sharpening and with those old adjustable jigs makes it easy to set them all to a predetermined projection measurement.
If you are just occasional sharpening, what is the issue with removing the grinding wheel to enable you to hone?
Am I missing something with your problem?
You already seem to have solved the problem with your independent honing set up.

Not sure I see it as a 'problem' per se... I simply don't want to remove the wheel each time I want to hone a knife accurately.
It involves (unless I am not getting something  ;) )
setting up angle,
grinding knife,
lowering water tray,
emptying water tray,
removing grinding wheel,
do honing,
remounting grinding wheel,
putting water tray back on and up,
refilling water level in tray,
resetting angle,
and all over again for each knife. This assumes that the grinding wheel goes back on exactly lined up and true as before which I have doubts about.

Or buy 10 knife jigs like you say  ;D  but then one still has to mount each knife in a jig anyway so no real time saving in that sense.

I just wanted a different way.
 
As I said, it is much more straightforward in my mind to grind, then keeping the knife in the jig so no change of projection distance (I have only one KJ-45) and go straight to honing on the other wheel I got. The grinding wheel is still ready and waiting for the next knife.
Each knife takes a few minutes to sharpen (grind and hone) accurately with no faffing around.

To me it is more or less an extension of the whole Tormek idea. The machine is a grinding wheel and honing wheel already set up on one machine. This is perfect for woodworking tools and some others and is a hassle free design. No need to change wheels on and off for honing etc. Just imagine if there was only one axle with a wheel available. You would need to change the wheel to hone and then once again to grind.
To me that is the situation with knives. The Tormek is simply not really designed for knives which is probably why a lot of people who do knives regularly develop a separate system for honing.
The T8 and T4 are excellent machines but they have some limits.
It reminds me of that machine that Tormek made in the past (see history of Tormek video) with a long axle and hence a big distance between the grinding and honing wheels. They obviously decided not to pursue this design as it made it a big and bulky item. But it looked very practical for longer items like knives.

For most people the basic machine is OK and you find ways to use it satisfactorily. My separate honing wheel thing didn't cost a lot and works very well for longer items.

I hope that helps explains my thinking somewhat.

Danny





Sir Amwell

" or buy 10 knife jigs like you say".....
I'm sure you will understand the following and I'm only explaining what I do.
Having 10 of the old svm knife jigs allows you to set each knife to a set projection so that you only need to set the usb once to obtain a given angle.
Grind all knives.
Now,keeping knives in jigs, remove the grinding wheel and set your honing angle on the leather wheel. It will be the same for each knife.
Hone.
So for a batch of 10 knives you've only had to remove the grinding wheel once. You've only had to adjust usb once for grinding.
If you were to use your independent honing station then you haven't removed the wheel even once. May be you would have to lower the water trough at the end though!
Seriously though I take your point that the Tormek does have limitations for knives, probably because of its original design to sharpen mostly woodworking tools.
But then knife sharpening is one of those things. To do it properly and with pride takes some patience, practice and fiddle faddle.
Unless of course you just use belt grinders to speed everything up.

Also I would not advocate you buying multiple kj45 jigs.
The old style adjustable svm jigs are much more suited to doing a batch of knives at a set projection.
Compared, the kj45s have only a tiny amount of adjustment available.
But let's not go down that route again!

Ken S

Sir Amwell makes an interesting point. Although many thousands of Tormeks are being used to sharpen knives, Torgny created the original Tormek as a birthday present for his father, a carpenter, to sharpen his woodworking tools. In the grand tour online class, Sebastien refers to the blue Tormek models (the T4 and T8) as "the woodworking machines". Over the years, Tormek has made several specialty machines for sharpening knives. The two present knife specialty machines are the T2 and T1. With the incorporated knife jig, knife length is not a constraint. The angled composite honing wheel allows knives to be honed at an angle, thus avoiding interference with the grinding wheel.

Granted, having to remove the grinding wheel when honing longer knives held in the knife jig is inconvenient. However, in fairness to Tormek, their preferred method of knife honing has always been freehand honing in trained hands.

Ken

Sometimes I feel like the devil's advocate..........

Andy1066

I personally would love to see the option of an angled composite wheel for the T8.
If Tormek still made the T4000, or made a small batch of them, I'm pretty sure it would sell very well as a dedicated knife sharpening machine, that distance between the two wheels and USB supports both sides would make it perfect for me !
The only parts they would have to actually make as far as I can see are the wider stainless chassis and a longer majnshaft.
I would go as far as to say that with those two parts you could build such a machine yourself in conjunction with a used T2000........
Just a thought ! 

Ken S

Interesting thoughts, Andy.

Although it is a smaller diameter, the angled composite honing wheel of the T2 (and T1) is interchangeable with the T4.

I suspect a small production run T4000 would cost considerably more than just adding a T8 Custom. A second T8 could also serve as a backup in the unlikely event of a service problem with the first Tormek.

Ken

aquataur

#36
For me, the ,,woodworking" machines are a specialized compromise. They can do everything, but are not particularly excellent in any field. Do not misunderstand what I'm saying.

Let´s take Dan´s case. 10 knifes per week can already be considered volume sharpening, in the sense that permanent swapping of wheels and that quickly explodes into excessive additional load.

A dedicated sharpening service would never put up with such fandango, they would go and buy dedicated machinery for each task.

Yet being an advanced hobbyist, considering you had such (even small) volumes of drills, knifes, chisels etc. to sharpen, you would immediately go and try to limit such procedures as swapping wheels, even swapping USB etc. by obtaining more machines for the individual tasks. Even if it were just a wet/dry grinder like Dan uses.

Our Wootz went an intermediate way by buying a Tormek for each task: stone1, stone2, leather strop (methinks), felt wheel, and a  half speed large axle (fast) grinder for the paper wheels.
The earlier ones work well whith the given axle length, the latter are specialized anyways.
And that is only the knives served...

There is a line beyond which you want to determine which way to go.

I do a lot of experimentation, like the recent face grinding for secondary bevels (relief), so I have a very coarse wheel, the stock wheel, a SiC wheel and a polishing wheel. Those cover the grit range from 120,220,600 to 1000 for individual tasks. Sometimes you need two wheels at least for a knife or axe. Ramming my basement full with individual machines? No. Too much space, too costly.
And let´s face it: we probably have all started out wanting sharp knives. Do we want to be slaves to all that gear?

Yes I can see the point, and yes it gets up my nose too, but I am content with it. I have thought about dedicating my wet/dry grinder to the felt wheel. That´s about it.

So because it has been asked here what the problems are with changing wheels: the problem is that you true any wheel and the next time you mount it it wobbles.
I find myself re-opening and re-fastening the wheels several times before it runs acceptable, but never as true as before.

The SG-200 (I have a T3), unlike the after-market other wheels I have, has a few tenth of a millimeter bore play and I have to put on thin layers of adhesive tape every time I mount it. And of course remove this once I use a different wheel.
This is really sickening.

If anybody has found a fix for this, I would be very thankful.

Oh and by the way, the coarse wheel is the re-purposed wheel from said wet/dry grinder. It has a 20mm bore and came with an entirely useless adaptor.
I had one 3d-printed with a bore that fits very snugly. Once trued, it is much easier to get mounted and run true.

HaioPaio

Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMA dedicated sharpening service would never put up with such fandango, they would go and buy dedicated machinery for each task.
I know two sharpening services which use the multiple Jig Solution as described.
You used the word "never". A more open statement would possibly fit better.

Dan

Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMSo because it has been asked here what the problems are with changing wheels: the problem is that you true any wheel and the next time you mount it it wobbles.
I find myself re-opening and re-fastening the wheels several times before it runs acceptable, but never as true as before.

This is another reason I prefer not to remove the wheel even though not many users who do change wheels frequently report having any problem with this.

Quote from: aquataur on August 19, 2023, 11:47:53 AMThe SG-200 (I have a T3), unlike the after-market other wheels I have, has a few tenth of a millimeter bore play and I have to put on thin layers of adhesive tape every time I mount it. And of course remove this once I use a different wheel.
This is really sickening.

If anybody has found a fix for this, I would be very thankful.

This does sound like a particular problem with either the wheel hole or the axle on your machine. More generally, some people suggest always lining up the wheel with the label writing horizontally before tightening so that it goes back in theory in the same place. Not sure it would help if there is significant play between the parts. I think I read of someone using some sort of epoxy filler on the wheel hole with a suitable diameter teflon? rod while it sets. This may not be possible with such a small amount of play though.

Danny

Ken S

I learned the lesson of trying to extend the useful life of my computer years ago. I would purchase a machine capable of working with the operating system of the day, only to have it become sluggish when the next operating system was introduced. I learned to overbuy.

I believe the ideal solution for this dilemma is a second T8, a T8 Custom. The initial cost may seem high; however, in addition to effortlessly eliminating the need to remove the grinding wheel on the first Tormek, should you ever feel the need for a second grinding wheel, it will be an exact fit. All of your jigs will fit, and all of your settings will match.

Ken

aquataur

Quote from: Dan on August 19, 2023, 02:06:05 PMNot sure it would help if there is significant play between the parts
I don´t think it would help. It is not so that the axle is bent or the fastening screw´s flange non precise...

I think part of the problem is axial play on the stone. Even a tenth of a millimeter play will be transported to the circumference and appear as wobble both ways. The above mentioned cheap stone it was originally fitted with some disgrace of an adaptor. Wobble was a nightmare. I was surprised how well this now behaves after fitting it with a tailor made adaptor and truing with the diamond.

I think the other part is the mounting flange and/or the blotter:
QuoteBlotters help to assure that the flange clamping pressure is evenly distributed on the wheel. (...) You must therefore use one clean new blotter for each mounting flange.(...)
Never re-use old blotters when remounting wheels.
(Source: Blotter size vs. Flange size - what is the Rule? by Nortonabrasives.

While this surely applies to fast running wheels, it will be applicable to an extent even to our situation. Because nothing else can explain why re-opening and re-fastening cures the problem. (sometimes.)





Ken S

You make a good case for having a separate T8 for the leather honing wheel. By not having to remove the grinding wheel when jig held honing, once you fine tune the wheel alignment, it should remain properly aligned.

Ken

Ken S

#42
This Knife Grinders video shows some interesting possibilities. I still think a second Tormek is the ideal solution; however, this shows some Tormek based, but not exclusively Tormek solutions.

https://youtu.be/c6iIC3wBmNY

For anyone not in a hurry, I believe it is prudent to wait until the promised Tormek Advanced Honing online class is available.

Ken

tgbto

Quote from: Ken S on August 19, 2023, 05:14:21 AMHowever, in fairness to Tormek, their preferred method of knife honing has always been freehand honing in trained hands.

We should also mention "holding the knife at an angle not to hit the wheel with the handle", though in videos they mention keeping the spacer that comes with the machine. I am not sure why it is often branded the "preferred method", as it is the only one. In the same way the AngleMaster is (for a few more months ?) the Tormek preferred way of setting a knife angle, and what they said "didn't matter" will soon be a selling point.

The Tormek lacks a way of honing on a USB, most users of this forum know it is a shortcoming. I don't remember seeing any FVB owner mentioning they no longer use it because freehand honing is better/faster. And I'm sure Wolfgang could grind a very sharp edge freehand, but that doesn't make using a jig a less desirable option, or a crutch to be eliminated.

The Tormek is a superb machine, the service is top notch, but acknowledging how it can still be improved is IMO a better way of ensuring it remains so for years to come.

tgbto

I had not seen the post about the MB-102 at the time, but it seems that (and I quote the official website) "guided honing using knife jigs" is now a thing at Tormek... I'd wager we'll see more about it during the advanced honing class  :)