bevel angle calculating thoughts

[Ken S]

I have a growing concern, especially for our newer members.

Life seemed simpler when I began using my T7 in 2009. There was only one grinding wheel, the SG-250. CBN and diamond wheels had not entered the Tormek environment. The only modification was taping or gluing a magnet onto the water trough. We set bevel angles with a Sharpie or the Anglemaster.

I am not opposed to progress. In fact, those of us who have read my posts over the years know that I have been one of the ringleaders in areas like the kenjig and additional grinding wheels. What bothers me is an attitude I perceive among new and prospective Tormek owners that sharp edges cannot be obtained using traditional Tormek techniques. I see new Tormek people ready to buy more grinding wheels, FVBs, and install computer apps before they can sharpen a knife or tool, perhaps before even trying to sharpen.

I understand this enthusiasm and in no way wish to dampen it. Nor am I immune from it. I studied cello for one term in college. As a complete beginner, my professor was amused when I told him that I wanted to play the Bach Cello Suites. Music lovers among us will chuckle at my enthusiastic naivity.

I am very aware that among our membership there are numerous sharpening expectations. I believe most of us are like me, home shop sharpeners sharpening ordinary knives and tools. Some of us sharpen high volume. Some of us sharpen expensive knives made of exotic steel alloys. We have different needs. Some of us can benefit immensely from the different angle calculator programs and equipment. The recent advances benefit us all, however, I feel more comfortable if a beginner masters the basics before attempting to play the Bach Cello Suites.

Ken

[nugget]

Hi,
   This seemed like a good topic to make my first post in this forum. I've just recently taken delivery of a new T8 and the SVM-45 knife jig with the intent of keeping my workshop chisels, planes and of course the kitchen knives in a much better state of sharpness then I've managed so far with other methods (mostly hand sharpened on diamond plates). I dutifully trued up the stone as recommended and started with some of the chisels and plane blades. I then moved on to doing the kitchen knives after first practising on a couple of cheap ones I bought from Kmart for a whole $8 each.
Initially (and before I discovered your forum) I did all the sharpening using the traditional Tormek way with the angle setter and freehand honing and I was able to get great results , there is no question in my mind that you can and will get good results with the "out of the box" Tormek kit with a with even just little practise.
One of the best "add-ons" I introduced was a 10x Loupe Magnifier to check the bevel as I was going along, both for grinding and honing. I also used this in conjunction with the "Sharpie" method on the bevel to see what I was actually grinding/honing. This gave me great feedback as to how I was doing and what I needed to correct to get a better result. (My aging eyes betray me a little these days)
After lots of reading on the forum about all the different angle calculator programs and equipment I have started using TormekCalc (thank you jvh) with just the standard USB in vertical and horizontal position.  What this seems to give me is benefits in setup time and accuracy and more consistent results especially for honing. Sharper results? Somewhat yes, but I agree with Ken that without doing at least some practise using basic methods and monitoring my results as I go along I would not fully appreciate what I am gaining using these "extras".

Richard

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Richard. You are obviously off to a very good start.

This is an exciting time to use a Tormek. All of the angle setting programs have originated on the forum, and I feel we are just scratching the surface. We have work to do; I hope you will be part of it!

Ken

[Rob]

Hi,
   This seemed like a good topic to make my first post in this forum. I've just recently taken delivery of a new T8 and the SVM-45 knife jig with the intent of keeping my workshop chisels, planes and of course the kitchen knives in a much better state of sharpness then I've managed so far with other methods (mostly hand sharpened on diamond plates). I dutifully trued up the stone as recommended and started with some of the chisels and plane blades. I then moved on to doing the kitchen knives after first practising on a couple of cheap ones I bought from Kmart for a whole $8 each.
Initially (and before I discovered your forum) I did all the sharpening using the traditional Tormek way with the angle setter and freehand honing and I was able to get great results , there is no question in my mind that you can and will get good results with the "out of the box" Tormek kit with a with even just little practise.
One of the best "add-ons" I introduced was a 10x Loupe Magnifier to check the bevel as I was going along, both for grinding and honing. I also used this in conjunction with the "Sharpie" method on the bevel to see what I was actually grinding/honing. This gave me great feedback as to how I was doing and what I needed to correct to get a better result. (My aging eyes betray me a little these days)
After lots of reading on the forum about all the different angle calculator programs and equipment I have started using TormekCalc (thank you jvh) with just the standard USB in vertical and horizontal position.  What this seems to give me is benefits in setup time and accuracy and more consistent results especially for honing. Sharper results? Somewhat yes, but I agree with Ken that without doing at least some practise using basic methods and monitoring my results as I go along I would not fully appreciate what I am gaining using these "extras".

Richard

I'm a little late to the party guys...whats Tormek calc?

[John_B]

Tormek Calc is a program for setting the USB for grinding and honing. It allows precise and repeatable settings.

Here is a link to the latest version

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4181.0

[Oldhand]

Ken S, thank you for your thoughtful topic.

My first classical guitar lesson, I'd already learned the first few lines of Asturias (Op. 47 No. 5) by Albeniz, heh. I know where you're coming from! I loved it so much, my common sense vanished entirely. Someday, I'd love to PM you about music for awhile

That said, as a sharpener who's been "messing around a bit" for some years and was looking, rather desperately, for some extremely solid data, Vadim's (wootz/knifegrinders.au) book, "Knife Deburring: Science Behind the Lasting Razor Edge" was precisely what I needed. And reading, and following his methods, is giving me the guidance I need to meet my sharpening goals - not all at once, it takes practice. But it's put me on the path I wanted to be on.

I like having a BESS edge tester that can give me numerically precise feedback to go along with other testing techniques - and I found the money well-spent. Some, many? most? perhaps would not. I'm grateful to have not made mistakes in the equipment I did choose to purchase for the direction I'm taking with my sharpening due to Vadim's excellent advice. But no, you don't need it all at once, unless you can afford it and decide you do  I won't take the music metaphor here because it's too obvious!

I've always expected this to be a slow process until I ever take a customer, but when I do, I'm confident I'll be getting repeatable, excellent results. I already am, with the couple dozen knives I keep brutalizing to clean up again. And the way I've done it is to be careful, to follow advice from Vadim, and things I've found on various forums - like this one. I've used movies of myself sharpening with both hands when I got less exact results from one hand than the other. I've measured my measurements until I'm sure they're absolutely within spec - and they weren't, quite, at first. (Ah hah! The Sharpie doesn't lie!)

With music, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect, even if it's slow, careful, and initially full of mistakes. One has to have good teachers - but most of all a commitment to, and love of one's craft, at the level to which one wishes to take it, of course - along with realistic expectations.

I now can consistently get my personal Maxamet Native 5 significantly sharper than a feather double-edged razor with improving consistency. The first time I scored a "20" with it at multiple test points (a "feather" double edged razor scores about 50), I did my own little happy dance. I'm also having fun shaving with a cutthroat razor I sharpen myself - usually to around 40 at multiple points on the edge when going to my wheels (yes, wheels). (Still want to get that number a LITTLE lower.)

Sharpening appeals to me because it's such a precise, focused craft that still has more than enough to keep me learning for a lifetime.

My advice would be to find those teachers and techniques that appeal to you, don't expect to not have to work at it, but do expect good, and increasingly more reliably good, results when you're precise, and you're following the advice and work of someone who really knows what they're doing. (Since you're here, you've chosen your main technique - a Tormek, rather than flat stones or guided systems, at least as a primary method. And I've found many very bright people on here to learn from).

And for a Tormek owner, no, you don't have to buy every wheel around, sharpen every type of edged instrument made, of every material in existence, or buy some of the more expensive scientific tools. It all depends on what your goals are. I personally focused on my Maxamet Spyderco (I couldn't resist), and a cheap set of Chinese kitchen knives I bought as beaters from Amazon. I expanded, carefully, to a Shun I'd given my wife (great results!), and some more difficult folders of various steels (some results were better than others - I'm not ready for prime time yet) - plus my straight razor, which worked out very well.

Love what you do, pick an instrument, find good teachers, then work at it carefully and regularly. And since you're on this forum, might I say that starting with a Tormek for an instrument was an excellent choice. Have fun! (I am.)

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Oldtimer. Another forum old timer, Herman (now famous here for his very useful homemade small platform), described himself as having "a sharpening hobby". I use that term in the most positive manner. That passion effects many of us here, including you (and me).

Like you, I am a firm believer in the value of a good teacher, a mentor. Later this month, I will be driving to Hartville, Ohio for their semi annual Giant Tool Sale. (Feb 21,22). I go there to learn from the company reps. Several years ago, I went to the November sale intending to spend most of the day learning from the Tormek rep. It was a most fortunate day. The Tormek importer had hired "a local sharpener" to cover the morning. That local sharpener was none other than Steve Bottorff who has become my knife sharpening guru and friend. I owe my knife sharpening knowledge to Steve's generousity. (steve's website is sharpeningmadeeasy.com).

Alas, it is time to awaken the troops (my two grandchildren). Welcome aboard.

Ken

[Oldhand]

Thank you, very much, for the kind welcome. Music, sharpening, and grandchildren. Life can be odd and wonderful. Nice to find someone else with three of my interests - plus, you also seem a thoughtful person and a kind man, concerned with others - very nice indeed. I appreciate you not calling me out on being succinctness impaired