New t4 or used super grind 200?

[Nickclick]

I am wanting to get my first tormek system and I am sort of stuck. Should I buy a brand new t4 bushcraft or a used super grind 2000 or t7? I do a fair amount of sharpening, but want it to last a while either way. I know there is a larger variety for the 10" stones, but not sure if I need them. I sharpen knives, hunting and pocket, axes and woodworking tools. Any feed back or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

[GeoTech]

I would go for a nice clean used T7.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Nick.

I can't argue against Geotech's suggestion of a clean used T7. Between a used SuperGrind and a new T4, I would definitely prefer the new T4. You get Tormek's ironclad seven year warranty. You also get the improved precision of the machined zinc top; a stainless steel EZYlock shaft; and a microadjust universal support bar. You may safely ignore the fifty percent duty nonsense with the motor. It really relates to the overheating of the T3 caused by the all plastic housing which retained heat. The zinc top eliminates that problem.

Thousands of SuperGrinds continue to give trooper service. They can easily be upgraded with the stainless EZYlock shaft and microadjust support bar, however, these upgrades would negate most of the cost savings.

The only grinding wheel not offered for the T4 is the SB blackstone. In my opinion, the SB has been eclipsed by diamond and CBN wheels. Tormek lists the DWF and DWC 200mm diamond wheels only for the T2. I can tell you from personal experience that they work very well with the T4. There are also a variety of CBN wheels available for the  T4 from third party vendors.

In my opinion, the main difference between the T4 and T7/8 is portability. The weight of the T4 is about half that of the larger models. The T4 shares all of the jigs and the handbook with the larger models. I don't think you would regret either a T4 or a T7, or, for that matter a SuperGrind.

Choose carefully; your Tormek will last for your lifetime.

Do ask any questions.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I am wanting to get my first tormek system and I am sort of stuck. Should I buy a brand new t4 bushcraft or a used super grind 2000 or t7? I do a fair amount of sharpening, but want it to last a while either way. I know there is a larger variety for the 10" stones, but not sure if I need them. I sharpen knives, hunting and pocket, axes and woodworking tools. Any feed back or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

I'll make the case for getting a used SG2K or T7.  I took a look on eBay... and there are a few SG2Ks that may be a decent purchase.  (Interesting... no T-7s that I could find).

The larger machine has a few advantages... larger/wider grinding wheel, more "maneuvering" room between the wheels and case, are a couple that come to mind.  While technically, there may be an advantage to the zinc casing, in use, I've not seen a practical difference (for knives anyway... maybe it matters for other tools).

A few things I'd look at in getting a used machine...

• Stone size and condition:  if it's at or below 200mm, I'd factor in a replacement cost.... (then a percentage replacement cost above that)
• Have the seller remove the stone and get a photo of the shaft:  looking for 2 main factors... if the stone will actually come off, and if there's significant rust on the shaft.  If it won't come off, I'd probably pass, if there's a fair amount of rust, factor in a replacement shaft.
• Of course, make sure it runs without issue.
• Make sure it has the basics:  the support bar for jigs, stone grader, horizontal mount for support bar, etc., or again, factor those costs in.

You can actually get some decent deals if you want/need a number of jigs... usually for a fraction of the cost if you bought a T-4 and then added jigs you want separately... so you might make a list and add up what it would cost new.  Look for things you'll probably need:   for example a stone grader, and truing tool often come with a used machine.

I don't think you'd go wrong either way, and Ken brings up good points that favor the T-4... so, just some points to ponder the "other way"!

[Nickclick]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am must confused what the diamond wheels are for. I see that they are on the t-2, but the diamond wheel is different for the larger one. Is there a difference in how they sharpen or what they are used for? Also, when I buy either one, should I buy a different stone, like a Japanese water stone or diamond stone? How do I know which stone I would benefit from? Thanks you in advance.

[cbwx34]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am must confused what the diamond wheels are for. I see that they are on the t-2, but the diamond wheel is different for the larger one. Is there a difference in how they sharpen or what they are used for? Also, when I buy either one, should I buy a different stone, like a Japanese water stone or diamond stone? How do I know which stone I would benefit from? Thanks you in advance.

Diamonds work better on harder steels... like some of the new "super steels" in knives, or the HSS steels in turning tools.  (They'll also sharpen ceramic).  They can also work faster, since they cut better, and stay at their stated grit level, vs. the stock stone, which may need to be refreshed with the stone grader to keep cutting.

One difference with the larger diamond wheels is there is diamond coating on the outside... allowing you to create a flat bevel... on the back (or even the face) of a chisel for example.  The larger ones are also designed to be run wet... the smaller ones dry (they probably could be run wet, but Tormek said they haven't tested it...  ).

I would start with just the "stock" stone that the machine comes with... see if it satisfies your needs before deciding what other stones to purchase.  Might be all you need.

[Ken S]

CB and I are actually not that far apart in our thinking. If you and I happened to be at a yard sale with a nice, clean SG2K for sale at a bargain price, since I already have several Tormeks and you would be looking for your first one, I would step aside and it would be yours. (If you arrived after I had left, the Tormek would also have left. 

A clean SG at a good price should serve you well "for the duration". "A good price" should be substantially below the cost of a new one, as it does not come with a seven year warranty. For the sharpening needs you describe, the standard issue SG grinding wheel is all you would ever need. If the shaft is not rusted and you maintain your machine, you can get along quite well without the EZYlock. For maintaining your grinding wheel, you will want a microadjust universal support bar and a TT-50 truing tool. If you purchase a TT-50 separately, wait until the new design is available.

I bought my jigs foolishly. Most were 20% off at woodworking shows, however, I bought almost all of them, thinking I would need them "eventually". After nine years eventually has not yet come for some of them. In that time, most of them have been redesigned and improved. Only purchase the jigs you actually need, and buy the latest models. You can go far with the square edge jig, regular knife jig, and ax jig.

The diamond wheels are nice for woodturners. Minus the axes, you sharpen the same tools I do. The SG wheel will serve you very well.

Ken

[Nickclick]

Thank you both for the quick replies and helpful info. On chisel you don't really want the hollow grind the wheel would provide, could I use the side of the "standard" wheel? Also, still not 100% sure, is a brand new t4 worth it versus a super grind 2000? I realize there are new features, but I don't do sharpening as a job, so are they worth it against a larger machine with accessories?

[Ken S]

Good question, Nick. I am glad you asked.

"Hollow grind" is a concept going back fifty years or longer to when most home and small shop dry grinders used six inch diameter wheels. The concept was that the hollow meant you could feel the two high points of the arc when a chisel or plane blade was placed on a flat bench stone to complete sharpening after grinding. Touch up sharpening meant just touching the two flat areas until they became large enough to require regrinding. It was less laborious than sharpening the entire bevel on a flat bench stone.This technique was preached by many experts and still has followers. It is not necessary with a Tormek.

The larger diameter wheels of the Tormek, both 250mm and 200mm minimize the amount of the hollow to the point where it becomes a theoretical problem rather than a real world problem.  I have held straight edges against freshly ground chisel bevels with both size Tormek wheels. If I look very carefully, I can convince myself that I might see a hollow. I suggest you just try the recommended technique. If the theoretical hollow still bothers you, just add three degrees to the bevel angle.

Brand new T4 vs SG2K with accessories? That's entirely your call. You won't hurt my feelings either way. I hope you won't discount the value of the seven year warranty or the stainless steel shaft and microadjust.

Keep thinking and learning.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Thank you both for the quick replies and helpful info. On chisel you don't really want the hollow grind the wheel would provide, could I use the side of the "standard" wheel? Also, still not 100% sure, is a brand new t4 worth it versus a super grind 2000? I realize there are new features, but I don't do sharpening as a job, so are they worth it against a larger machine with accessories?

I'll defer to the chisel sharpener for the first part.

For the 2nd question, although the T-4 is "new"... there's nothing that comes to mind that you can do on it, that you couldn't do on a SG2K... I can't think of anything that's technically a "new feature".  New design... but works the same.  (Smaller size to store and lighter weight, if those matter?)

[RichColvin]

Thank you both for the quick replies and helpful info. On chisel you don't really want the hollow grind the wheel would provide, could I use the side of the "standard" wheel? Also, still not 100% sure, is a brand new t4 worth it versus a super grind 2000? I realize there are new features, but I don't do sharpening as a job, so are they worth it against a larger machine with accessories?

Nick,

I have an older SG-2000.  Had it now for 16 years.  It's still working quite well and I really like it, but if I were to buy one today, I'd go for the T-4 or save up for a T-8.  The T-8 has some very nice features.  And, as Ken says, save some money by getting the jigs you need when you need them. 

As for grinding on the side of the SG stone, I used the MB-100 to do just that.  Worked well. 

But, Ken is right.  I doubt you'll need to go that route.  The only tool I've ever heard of that this impacted are wood carving knives.  The carvers said they can tell a real difference.  Ive heard of no one else who has noted an impact.

Tormek grinders are not cheap, but they last a long time and are really worth the expenditure.  I'm expecting mine to outlive me.  They are a great all-around sharpening tool.  You won't regret buying one. 

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

A new T4 in the US should cost no more than $420, including shipping. Most of the listed used SG2K models are priced higher than that, often not including shipping. In my opinion, $200 is about the right price for a clean Tormek nearing twenty years old. The used prices are getting quite close to the price of a new T8. I just think most SG2Ks are overpriced.

I have always recommended that most new Tormek buyers are better off with the security of a new warranty.

Ken

Edit to include Rich's reply: When you add in the cost of the SE-77 square edge jig and the TT-50 truing tool to the T4 (They are included with the T8.), the cost difference is not that much. Choose the model which suits your needs, be it a SG2K, T4, T7, or T8. There are no bad choices, just some which may suit you better.

[Nickclick]

Thank you all for the info. You have really cleared thing up for me. I appreciate it and hope my new experience will go well. If you are curious, you talked me into getting the t-8. For the pretty minimal price increase, I didn't really see a reason to go for the t-4. Thanks again.

[Ken S]

Nick,

E Leitz, the company which made the Leica cameras, used to have an advertising slogan, "Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten." Leica quality is superb, and has always been priced accordingly. (ouch!) Your T8 will serve you very well for the rest of your life. For me, the deciding factor between the T4 and the T8 has always been how often it is moved about. (As a senior citizen, my age factors in, also.)  Since the SE-77 square edge jig and the TT-50 truing tool are included with the T8, the cost difference is minimized.

During my first meeting with Stig from Tormek and a representative of Affinity Tool, the US importer, I questioned both of them intensely about Tormek's warranty service. That conversation and later forum discussions have convinced me that Tormek's seven year warranty is outstanding. That peace of mind is why I recommend new machines for new users.

I hope you will continue posting. Your experience can benefit others. It will also give us feedback about our advice. None of us is employed by Tormek. Our thoughts are honest. If some advice misses the mark, we want to be aware of it. As you have seen, we do not think in lockstep

Enjoy the learning experience.

Ken

[jeffs55]

" Your T8 will serve you very well for the rest of your life. For me, the deciding factor between the T4 and the T8 has always been how often it is moved about." Ken has a valid point about the weight of the two machines but that only comes into play when/if you move it often and the state of your physical being. He offered a saying from Leica about buying the best and I would like to proffer a saying that I authored. "Obtain the biggest, you can use less of more but you cannot make more of less". That means that you can use half of the loaf of bread but you cannot make the rest of the loaf from the half that you have. You can also use half of a gun safe but you cannot make it bigger to house those guns that will not  fit in half. Biggest is not always called for but is seldom regretted. In your case you seem to have opted for the larger T7, I would have too.