New t4 or used super grind 200?

[Ken S]

Jeff, you make a very good point.

When I first examined my T4, I was surprised to discover that the included handbook was identical to the T7 handbook. Even the TTS-100, the setting tool for turning tools, was the same and required no adjustment for the T4. (The Anglemaster requires only resetting the wheel diameter adjustment.) All of the Tormek jigs work with either size Tormek. Almost all of the relacement parts are the same.

If, at some future date, a Tormek user has a need for a larger or smaller size Tormek, all of the jigs will fit either size. In our age of planned obsolescense, this "No Tormek left behind" philosophy is remarkable.

Ken

[cbwx34]

A new T4 in the US should cost no more than $420, including shipping. Most of the listed used SG2K models are priced higher than that, often not including shipping. In my opinion, $200 is about the right price for a clean Tormek nearing twenty years old. The used prices are getting quite close to the price of a new T8. I just think most SG2Ks are overpriced.

I have always recommended that most new Tormek buyers are better off with the security of a new warranty.

Ken

Edit to include Rich's reply: When you add in the cost of the SE-77 square edge jig and the TT-50 truing tool to the T4 (They are included with the T8.), the cost difference is not that much. Choose the model which suits your needs, be it a SG2K, T4, T7, or T8. There are no bad choices, just some which may suit you better.

Usually, used Tormeks come with several jigs and accessories... so that should be taken into account.

I hate the vague... "the cost difference is not that much"... so I did a little comparison to see the difference...



... just to get an idea.  Basically, to get a T-4 with the T-8 "addons" (TT-50 and SE-77) the difference = $151.00 less for T-4.  To get a setup for a knife sharpener (adding Ken's philosophy of "don't get what you don't need" so no SE-77)... the difference can be from $263 (which makes the T-8 comparable to the T-4 Bushcraft) or "$243 (eliminate the ax jig on the T-8)... so roughly $250.00 less for the T-4 setup.  (Obviously, one could start looking into package kits, etc... this is just one example).  Just thought I'd add a few numbers to the conversation.

[Ken S]

Point well taken. I forgot about the last price increase. I tend to ignore online prices; so many of them are inflated. I suggest you compare prices using Hartville Hardware and Advanced Machinery as reference points. Buy from wherever you want, however, these two places will give you honest prices as a starting point.

Once you have gathered your pricing information, you can make an informed decision.

Ken.

EDIT: I want to add that I regret my oversight in price comparison. I had no intention of misleading anyone.

[cbwx34]

Point well taken. I forgot about the last price increase. I tend to ignore online prices; so many of them are inflated. I suggest you compare prices using Hartville Hardware and Advanced Machinery as reference points. Buy from wherever you want, however, these two places will give you honest prices as a starting point.

Once you have gathered your pricing information, you can make an informed decision.

Ken.

No point to prove (honest)... just trying to give it a bit of perspective.  Some might see the difference as a "deal breaker", to others, it may show the difference worth it. 

[John_B]

If you are planning to do a variety of knives I would also get the Long Knife jig SVM140. It makes sharpening of filet knives and longer flexible kitchen knives mush easier. You will be amazed at the edge you will be able to put on old flimsy knives. They may not hold it as long as the newer blades but they are good while they last. I have also found that following a maintenance process keeps a knife sharp much longer. For my own knives that are used most days I use a smooth steel after I am done for the day, every week or so I will substitute a grooved steel and when I sense that is not working I return to the leather hone. After a couple trips to the hone I will do a touch up using the SG-250 finished to 1000 grit. I use the coarser one when I am doing a knife for the first time of if it is severely damaged. My simple test is to see if it will cut a newspaper or magazine page; regular copy paper is too easy to cut you want something that is flimsy. My process is based on my personal needs to have really sharp knives in the kitchen. I am not performing surgery or displaying them for show.

[Nickclick]

Thank you all for putting so much time and info into your responses, it is helping a lot. Lady question, what is the Japanese water stone used for/ good for? Would it be useful for sharpening hunting knives, pocket knive, axes and woodworking tools?

[jeffs55]

In my humble opinion the water stone is nearly useless at sharpening anything. It is for cosmetic purposes mainly. Although it will grind to an immaculate edge, it is  going to be barely noticeably sharper.

[Ken S]

I think the problem here is word usage. "Sharpening" is used as an umbrella term for the whole operation. The initial part of the operation, sometimes referred to as sharpening, is also called setting or establishing the bevel. The steel is ground until a burr is raised. This is done with the SG graded coarse. The scratch pattern is easily visible on a chisel bevel. The second stage is honing, done with the SG graded fine. This important part refines (lessens) the scratch pattern and prepares the edge for the leather honing wheel. Tormek uses the term "leather honing wheel". I would prefer to call the third stage polishing. It is also called stropping. During this phase, the burr is removed and the scratch pattern is lessened further. The bevel becomes polished like a mirror.

The SJ 4000 grit "Japanese" grinding wheel is a polishing wheel. It is designed to put a high polish on the edge. It is not designed to remove more than a minute amount of steel or to sharpen a dull edge.

Each stage has its function. For everyday sharpening of the tools you will use, the SG has been producing superior edge sharpness for over forty years. If, by chance, you are considering purchasing an SJ wheel when you purchase your Tormek, I would encourage you to postpone the SJ in favor of the Tormek itself. You will use your Tormek in all of your sharpening. The SJ is a specialty item which will only be used occasionally. If, after becoming fluent with your Tormek, you decide that you would like an SJ, they are quite readily available for all Tormek models.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Thank you all for putting so much time and info into your responses, it is helping a lot. Lady question, what is the Japanese water stone used for/ good for? Would it be useful for sharpening hunting knives, pocket knive, axes and woodworking tools?

Ken gave a good answer... I'll just add a bit to it.  Part of the answer lies in whether you want a "toothy" edge or a more "polished" edge.  It's talked about a bit in this thread:  Kitchen knives: Toothy edge vs Polished edge.  In a quick (and broad) summary... a toothy edge slices better, a polished edge push cuts better.

So in your examples... you may not want it for a hunting knife, pocket knife depends on use, axes... maybe for a carving ax, probably won't matter on ax your chopping down a tree with, and for "woodworking tools"... it would depend on its intended use.... for example, doing detailed carving a polished edge is preferred.

The beauty of sharpening your own knives, is you get to experiment and find what works best for you.  Like Ken said, try the stock setup... if you find yourself liking the more polished edge after honing on the leather wheel, the SJ wheel can become a good addition to the setup.

In my humble opinion the water stone is nearly useless at sharpening anything. It is for cosmetic purposes mainly. Although it will grind to an immaculate edge, it is  going to be barely noticeably sharper.

You're correct, it's not a sharpening stone... but it goes back to what you're using it for... and can be "noticeably sharper" where needed, and is more than just cosmetic.  I think part of the problem is a lot of sharpeners have gotten "caught up" in polished edges, mainly 'cause it looks good, but not necessarily works for its intended use, so favoring "cosmetic" over "use" (but that's probably another rabbit hole...). 

[Nickclick]

Thanks for the responses, they have been extremely helpful.

[RichColvin]

This is the process I've mapped out for knives is :

The honing step is where I use the Japanese (SJ) water stone.

For carving tools, this is the process I use :

Hope the visual helps.

Kind regards,
Rich

[jeffs55]

Do you find it necessary to use the SJ and the leather hone? I have seen it written that if you use the SJ you can forget the hone, it is the same thing. See the following for more opinions.  https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3384.0

[cbwx34]

Do you find it necessary to use the SJ and the leather hone? I have seen it written that if you use the SJ you can forget the hone, it is the same thing. See the following for more opinions.  https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3384.0

I would say a similar edge... not necessarily the same.  You could use one in place of the other, or use both.

An example I can think of is sharpening a straight razor.  I read a bit about sharpening them at one time (although never got into it much), and one thing I noted was that some users preferred an edge right off a very fine stone... others would never use an edge without stropping first.

A stone should give a "crisper" more defined edge, with a bit more "tooth", since it's harder and the abrasives are relatively 'fixed'... vs. an edge off a leather wheel, which may be "smoother" and you'll probably end up with a better polish, since there's a less defined scratch pattern.  Either one could be more refined, depending on the abrasive level and how they're used.

So, yes, depending on the desired result, you could easily replace the leather wheel with the SJ wheel.

(That other thread seemed to end without solving the issue... but hard to solve issues over the internet sometimes)...

[cbwx34]

This is the process I've mapped out for knives is :

The honing step is where I use the Japanese (SJ) water stone.

For carving tools, this is the process I use :

Hope the visual helps.

Kind regards,
Rich

Interesting... I would have thought a carving tool would benefit more from the SJ wheel?

[RichColvin]

CB,

Carving tools have to be re-stropped often.  So much so that I've not seen the benefit of honing on the SJ stone to be worth the effort of getting up from the bench to go re-hone each time.  I re-strop right there on the bench as much as possible.

But that's been my experience. I'm interested in what others think.

Kind regards,
Rich