In which order to build skills?

[wanderingwhittler]

Hello everyone. I've read several threads here over the past few months while deciding whether to purchase a Tormek. Thank you all for the help you've already given me.

This is my first post, so I'd like to quickly introduce myself before getting to my question. My name is Greg. I am an avid whittler, aspiring green wood spoon carver, enthusiastic home cook, and small-time hobbyist collector of traditional pocket knives. As for activities that don't require sharp tools, I enjoy hiking, camping and backpacking, and running, particularly on trails.

I'm excited to have a Tormek T8 with Hand Tool Kit on the way. I've also ordered the Irwin 3/4" chisel recommended in the Tormek Tips Tricks and Techniques Beginners Start Here! thread and intend to follow the advice of becoming adept at sharpening it before moving on.

My goal is to become proficient using the Tormek to sharpen kitchen knives, pocket knives, sloyd knives with scandi grinds (like the Mora 106), and my carving hatchet. I know those skills will take time and practice to develop and I am willing to put in the effort and be patient. I'm looking for feedback about the right order in which to build those skills.

The most pressing sharpening need I have is to clean up the bevels on my carving hatchet. Sharpening it with the SVA-170 Axe Jig seems like it might be a good next step after the chisel because it will be slow work and give me ample opportunity to monitor and refine my technique as I go.

As for the knives, I was thinking of starting with the kitchen knives, using the SVM-45 Knife Jig. After that would be adding in the SVM-00 Small Knife Holder and using it first for pocket knives that only have one blade and then on the offset main blade of multi-blade pocket knives. The scandi ground knives with their large bevels seem like they will require the most skill, so I thought I'd save them for last.

How does that skill building progression sound to experienced Tormek users? I'd love to hear people's thoughts and am very open to other suggestions.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to participating in the forum.

[RickKrung]

Greg,

Welcome to the forum.  You've done your homework.  Congratulations, on that and purchase of a T8. 

I'd say you have a good grasp and a good course set.  As far as practice with knives and axes, I'd say get some junker or at least very cheap knives and axes/hatchets so as to not risk your good stuff until you have gained some experience.  Thrift stores can be a great source for the cheap knives, but I don't recall seeing any axes/hatchets.  For some reason, I have about six badly rusted and mistreated hand axes/hatchets (none of which are my own/primary ones) but I have yet to get into sharpening any. 

Rick

[cbwx34]

...
How does that skill building progression sound to experienced Tormek users? I'd love to hear people's thoughts and am very open to other suggestions.

Nothing really wrong with your plan... but I personally don't believe that there is necessarily a "progression".  I've sharpened a lot of knives on the Tormek... but I'd have to get the manual out if I ever wanted to sharpen a chisel.  While all practice is probably good practice, each tool has it's own requirements, and one doesn't necessarily translate to the next.

I will second what Rick said though... get practice knives, axes, etc. before sharpening the "good stuff".  That's really the only progression I'd suggest.  (And will add, practice on the type you're most likely to use, if that makes sense).

Enjoy!

[wanderingwhittler]

Welcome to the forum.  You've done your homework.  Congratulations, on that and purchase of a T8. 

I'd say you have a good grasp and a good course set.  As far as practice with knives and axes, I'd say get some junker or at least very cheap knives and axes/hatchets so as to not risk your good stuff until you have gained some experience.  Thrift stores can be a great source for the cheap knives, but I don't recall seeing any axes/hatchets.  For some reason, I have about six badly rusted and mistreated hand axes/hatchets (none of which are my own/primary ones) but I have yet to get into sharpening any. 

Thank you for the welcome, Rick. I appreciate it.

Thanks, also, for your advice. Using a few junker/cheap knives and hatchets sounds like a prudent course of action.

Nothing really wrong with your plan... but I personally don't believe that there is necessarily a "progression".  I've sharpened a lot of knives on the Tormek... but I'd have to get the manual out if I ever wanted to sharpen a chisel.  While all practice is probably good practice, each tool has it's own requirements, and one doesn't necessarily translate to the next.

I will second what Rick said though... get practice knives, axes, etc. before sharpening the "good stuff".  That's really the only progression I'd suggest.  (And will add, practice on the type you're most likely to use, if that makes sense).

Enjoy!

Thanks for the reply and the advice. I see your point about there not necessarily being a progression. I can also imagine that spending some time away from one setup and working with another can help bring fresh perspective when returning to the first.

I do believe there is merit in getting experience with just the knife sharpening jig before adding in an additional variable with the small knife holder, but perhaps what I should be striving for is comfort and basic effectiveness rather than approaching true proficiency before trying another thing.

And, thanks for seconding Rick's advice about not starting with the "good stuff". You two have me solidly convinced.  And, what you said about practicing on the type I'm most likely to use makes perfect sense. Thanks.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Greg.

With no disrespect meant to my fellow posters, I have a different view. I posted the Tricks, Tips and Techniques topic because I do believe there is a logical progression to learning the Tormek. I happen to be a chisel sharpener at heart, however, chisels themselves are not the point of my progression. Learning to use a Tormek is not difficult, however, there are some basics which need to be mastered. I prefer to learn them from the start instead of fumbling with them later.

Why the Irwin chisel? It has a single straight bevel. The 3/4" size is easy to hold and fits the jig very well. The chisel bevel is large enough to be easily seen with the naked eye. The blade is long enough for much practice. The steel is reasonably good, certainly not "top of the line", but not "cheap" either. I have around a dozen of these 3/4" Irwin Blue Chips. Having more than one lets me compare the effect of different grinding wheels or grits. And, they are inexpensive. I paid around eight dollars US each for mine, although the  cost has probably risen somewhat.

Working with your Irwin chisel, you can master the correct way to use the EZYlock. You can learn how to install, fill, use, remove, drain, and clean the water trough. You can learn the feel and sound of good grinding. You can learn the use of the TT-50 truing tool and the stone grader. You can learn how to use the leather honing wheel. The humble chisel can serve as a Tormek primer teaching you all the essential skills of the Tormek without the constraints of some other tools. Once you fully understand sharpening the chisel, you can move on well prepared to other tools.

I realize many on the forum disagree with my ideas. I sharpen knives, also. I have never felt that knowing how to sharpen chisels and the basic technique I learned from working with chisels has hindered my knife sharpening.

I agree with you that axes would be next on the list after you have fully learned the chisel related skills.

Ken

[wanderingwhittler]

Thanks for the welcome, Ken. I'm glad to be here.

Thank you for elaborating on the reasoning behind starting with the chisel. It may not have been clear in my earlier reply, but, regardless of how I decide to progress from there, I do intend to start with a chisel, for all of the reasons you mentioned. I'm a big fan of building a solid foundation in the basics first and I agree that learning to sharpen chisels is probably the simplest way to do that. I'll get a sharp chisel out of the deal, too.

Greg

[RichColvin]

Greg,

I believe that Ken's advice about learning to sharpen something that's straight forward like a ¾" chisel is the right one.  After that, I don't know if the specific tool matters. 

I do know this :  master one thing before moving to the next.  I consider it important to master the feel and sound of the Tormek.  Understand how it feels and sounds when things are going the right way.  Understand how it sounds when you need to re-grade the stone.  How it feels when the stone is graded to 200 vs. 600 vs. 1,000 grit.

As a final note, Grepper posted this years ago, and I captured it because of its wisdom.

I would humbly suggest that if you want to learn to sharpen knives, get a bunch of cheap sacrificial knives from your local thrift store to practice with and have at it. At least that's what I did. If you are sharpening for other people, no doubt sooner or later you will need to: Learn to sharpen so that you don't concave the blade at the center. Learn to sharpen the tip and maintain an even bevel. Learn to fix a broken off tip. Learn to deal with chips on the edge that you will see all of the time with hard steel knives like Shun. Learn to flatten the edge if it's not flat. Learn all about using the stone grader and how various levels of abrasiveness grind an edge. Learn how you need to constantly use the stone grader to maintain a particular level of abrasiveness. Learn all about the truing tool and keeping the wheel flat. Learn how to sharpen curved knives like a bird's beak knife. Learn how to sharpen very hard steel (RHC 60+) knives. Learn how to sharpen cheap, crappy steel knives without the edges chipping away. Learn about toothy vs smooth ground edges. Learn how smooth edge roll and get dull quickly. Learn how to sharpen very small blades like pen knives. Learn how with small blades the knife jig hits the wheel. Learn to deal with it. Learn how to sharpening blades with unequal or single side bevels. Learn how to sharpen serrated blades. Learn how to sharpen very long knives. Learn how to sharpen cleavers. Learn how to recognize knives you can't (or shouldn't) sharpen, and when you should politely decline. Sooner or later someone will ask you to sharpen a pizza cutter. Take a knife, grind the edge completely flat, and then sharpen it. Maybe this should be first on the list : Learn about deburring and how important it is. Learn how much compound you want to use on the leather wheel. Learn how much the compound smoothes a toothy edge if a toothy edge is what you want. Learn to sharpen knives on the Tormek by sharpening knives on the Tormek. Finally, a microscope and an edge sharpness tester are invaluable in learning about sharpening. With those instruments you can lean more in a couple of months than years of sharpening without them. Those instruments allow you to really understand and actually prove what is going on at the edge, rather than just speculating about it. A microscope allows you to see a burr and understand exactly how your burr removal method is working. An edge sharpness tester (e.g., the PT50 from BESS) demonstrates how the burr affects sharpness. An edge sharpness tester also allows you to understand and numerically represent the sharpness of your blade and how different sharpening procedures affect sharpness. You don't need those instruments to get a sharp edge, but if you really want to understand what is happening they are amazing instruments.

You will be glad you've invested in the Tormek.  It is a great tool.

Kind regards,
Rich

[wanderingwhittler]

Greg,

I believe that Ken's advice about learning to sharpen something that's straight forward like a ¾" chisel is the right one.  After that, I don't know if the specific tool matters. 

I do know this :  master one thing before moving to the next.  I consider it important to master the feel and sound of the Tormek.  Understand how it feels and sounds when things are going the right way.  Understand how it sounds when you need to re-grade the stone.  How it feels when the stone is graded to 200 vs. 600 vs. 1,000 grit.

As a final note, Grepper posted this years ago, and I captured it because of its wisdom.

<< Grepper's advice elided for brevity... >>

You will be glad you've invested in the Tormek.  It is a great tool.

Kind regards,
Rich

Rich, thank you for your comments and advice and for including that jewel from Grepper. There's a lot to chew on there!

I like what you said about mastering the feel and the sound of the Tormek. I'll make it a point to actively pay attention to both.

While on the topic of sensory feedback, what about sight? I've read that the flow of the water over a tool when the wheel is turning toward the edge is also an indicator of how things are going. Is that true in your experience as well?

Thanks also for the reassurance that I've made a good investment, by the way. That's always encouraging during the wait between making the purchase and being able to experience it firsthand.

Greg

[Ken S]

Greg,

Learning to use a Tormek should be a pleasure cruise. Enjoy the journey.

Do keep us posted. We are fellow travelers.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Greg,

I believe that Ken's advice about learning to sharpen something that's straight forward like a ¾" chisel is the right one.  After that, I don't know if the specific tool matters. 

I do know this :  master one thing before moving to the next.  I consider it important to master the feel and sound of the Tormek.  Understand how it feels and sounds when things are going the right way.  Understand how it sounds when you need to re-grade the stone.  How it feels when the stone is graded to 200 vs. 600 vs. 1,000 grit.

As a final note, Grepper posted this years ago, and I captured it because of its wisdom.

<< Grepper's advice elided for brevity... >>

You will be glad you've invested in the Tormek.  It is a great tool.

Kind regards,
Rich

Rich, thank you for your comments and advice and for including that jewel from Grepper. There's a lot to chew on there!

I like what you said about mastering the feel and the sound of the Tormek. I'll make it a point to actively pay attention to both.

While on the topic of sensory feedback, what about sight? I've read that the flow of the water over a tool when the wheel is turning toward the edge is also an indicator of how things are going. Is that true in your experience as well?

Thanks also for the reassurance that I've made a good investment, by the way. That's always encouraging during the wait between making the purchase and being able to experience it firsthand.

Greg

You boys and your chisels.... 

The list Rich posted is good... but I'll point out that it's not a beginner's list (note the "sharpening for other people" reference).

And yes, observing the water flowing over the tool is a good indicator.... for example it helps when sharpening a knife showing the contact of the stone in the curved belly to tip area, as you rotate and/or lift the knife.

BTW, there's a guy on Instagram Spoon Carving with Tom, who uses a Tormek to sharpen the tools he uses... might want to check him out.  (He posts the occasional video over there on its use).

[RickKrung]

A lot of good information.  I agree that Grepper's list is good and that it is not a beginner's list. 

One thing that was only lightly touched on, and which I think is extremely important, but is not at all emphasized adequately in the Tormek documentation or videos it LIFTING the blade as it curves up to the tip.  This was a real frustration for me as I didn't get it for the longest time.  Even after reading the extremely lengthy thread regarding "pivoting vs lifting":
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2589.0

I am finding that it is often important to lift ONLY, keeping the tip exactly parallel in the same path, lifting all the way until the very tip of the tip contacts the grind stone.  This is to maintain an even bevel all along the edge.  It looks and feels awkward. 

I suggest you explore this yourself with some of the practice knives.  Figure out for yourself how lifting and pivoting affect the bevel angle and width along the blade curvature. 

Rick

[wanderingwhittler]

<< nested quotes removed >>

You boys and your chisels.... 

The list Rich posted is good... but I'll point out that it's not a beginner's list (note the "sharpening for other people" reference).

And yes, observing the water flowing over the tool is a good indicator.... for example it helps when sharpening a knife showing the contact of the stone in the curved belly to tip area, as you rotate and/or lift the knife.

BTW, there's a guy on Instagram Spoon Carving with Tom, who uses a Tormek to sharpen the tools he uses... might want to check him out.  (He posts the occasional video over there on its use).

Yeah, I take Grepper's list to be an enumeration of things that a master would have, er, mastered. It's good to get a head start on knowing the things I don't know.

Thanks for the tips on water flow. I'll keep an eye out for that, too.

Spoon Carving with Tom's Instagram account was one of the things that sparked my interest in the Tormek. He's very generous with his knowledge and I've watched one of his videos on knife jig setup and read a few of his posts as well. I look forward to revisiting when I'm ready to try out sloyd knife sharpening on the Tormek myself.

A lot of good information.  I agree that Grepper's list is good and that it is not a beginner's list. 

One thing that was only lightly touched on, and which I think is extremely important, but is not at all emphasized adequately in the Tormek documentation or videos it LIFTING the blade as it curves up to the tip.  This was a real frustration for me as I didn't get it for the longest time.  Even after reading the extremely lengthy thread regarding "pivoting vs lifting":
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2589.0

I am finding that it is often important to lift ONLY, keeping the tip exactly parallel in the same path, lifting all the way until the very tip of the tip contacts the grind stone.  This is to maintain an even bevel all along the edge.  It looks and feels awkward. 

I suggest you explore this yourself with some of the practice knives.  Figure out for yourself how lifting and pivoting affect the bevel angle and width along the blade curvature. 

Rick

Thanks for bringing up the pivot vs. lift thread. I attempted to read it, but realized I was having a hard time visualizing the mechanics involved without having access to a Tormek to experiment myself. I decided it would be more productive to just wait until my machine arrives. Once it's here, your suggestion of gaining first hand experience is exactly what I had in mind.

Greg

[wanderingwhittler]

Greg,

Learning to use a Tormek should be a pleasure cruise. Enjoy the journey.

Do keep us posted. We are fellow travelers.

Ken

Will do, Ken. I appreciate you and everyone else's pre-voyage tips. With luck, I'll be able to spend some time familiarizing myself with it this weekend.

Greg

[cbwx34]

A lot of good information.  I agree that Grepper's list is good and that it is not a beginner's list. 

One thing that was only lightly touched on, and which I think is extremely important, but is not at all emphasized adequately in the Tormek documentation or videos it LIFTING the blade as it curves up to the tip.  This was a real frustration for me as I didn't get it for the longest time.  Even after reading the extremely lengthy thread regarding "pivoting vs lifting":
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2589.0

I am finding that it is often important to lift ONLY, keeping the tip exactly parallel in the same path, lifting all the way until the very tip of the tip contacts the grind stone.  This is to maintain an even bevel all along the edge.  It looks and feels awkward. 

I suggest you explore this yourself with some of the practice knives.  Figure out for yourself how lifting and pivoting affect the bevel angle and width along the blade curvature. 

Rick

While I will say that both methods have their pros and cons (talked about in the other thread)... I don't think lifting the blade should be taught as the only way.  While Tormek (the company) seems to favor lifting the blade... I'd actually like to see both methods studied and demonstrated.

As Rick said, try both and figure out what works best for your needs.

[wanderingwhittler]

My Tormek T-8 arrived on Saturday afternoon. Unfortunately I only had time to unbox and assemble it, condition the honing wheel, and learn how to install and fill the water trough. My pocket knife did the honors of spreading the honing paste. I try to keep it shaving sharp, but it was due for stropping.  It was back in fine form after a stint stint on the honing wheel.

Yesterday (Sunday) I had time to spend a few hours getting to know the machine. I very lightly trued the wheel, used the stone grader to set up coarse, and then started with an Irwin Marbles 3/4" chisel.
I started by grinding the back of the chisel against the side of the stone, as recommended in the manual. After that, I was ready for my first jig experience.

Mounting the chisel in the SE-77 jig was easy, but it took me a few minutes to realize that the two stops were attached to the jig for storage, but meant to be removed and slid over the USB and screwed into its free end, respectively.

With the stops sorted out, I moved on to matching the bevel angle. Using the Angle Master to get close and the Sharpie method to fine tune was quick and effective. It took less time than I expected to raise an even burr along the edge.

Leaving the chisel in the jig, I used the honing wheel to remove the burr before moving on the grinding with the stone graded to fine. I have no idea if this is necessary, but did allow me to feel when a new burr was established with the fine wheel.

After sharpening with the fine wheel, I removed the chisel from the jig, honed it, and was very pleased with its sharpness. So, I pulled out a file and blunted the edges and tried again. This is where my first learning from a mistake occurred.

I forgot to tighten the USB lock screws and the bar raised up a bit as I approached the inboard edge of the stone. This rounded the corner of the chisel. Fortunately the damage wasn't too bad, the lesson was learned, and I got more practice grinding back to a square edge.

After that, I was feeling comfortable with the machine and moved on to sharpening my carving hatchet with the axe jig. That is going well and I've satisfactorily completed to coarse grade work. Today or tomorrow I hope to complete the job. I'll post more about that once it's done.

After a few hours' taste of using the machine, I can tell I'm going to like it a lot. I can hardly wait to get more to experience with it.

A big thank you to all of you who contribute to this forum. I read quite a bit here while making my decision to buy a Tormek and then more as I was waiting for it to arrive. It'll take more reading and re-reading as I gain experience for all the knowledge represented here to sink in, but having just a bit of it in my head helped considerably with those first few hours.