Replacing a Tormek wheel with a 4000 grit Sun King wheel?

[jspill]

I have the chance to pick up a 4000 grit  Sun King wheel. I have no problem with the wheel that came with my used Tormek T7. I'm just wondering if it would be an upgrade to switch to the Sun King wheel. Thanks.

[cbwx34]

I have the chance to pick up a 4000 grit  Sun King wheel. I have no problem with the wheel that came with my used Tormek T7. I'm just wondering if it would be an upgrade to switch to the Sun King wheel. Thanks.

The 4K King wheel is more of a polishing wheel.  It could be used in addition to the stock wheel... to create a finer, more polished and refined edge... but it's not a replacement for the stock wheel... (it would be more of an alternative for the leather honing wheel).

So, for example, if all your knives/tools were sharpened with the stock wheel, you could then install the King 4K wheel and maintain the edges with it.

[jspill]

I'm sorry I made a mistake in naming the wheel I'm interested in. It is the Sun Tiger not Sun King wheel. It is produced by the Matsumaga company. I have heard that older Tormek machines were equipped with this wheel.

[cbwx34]

I'm sorry I made a mistake in naming the wheel I'm interested in. It is the Sun Tiger not Sun King wheel. It is produced by the Matsumaga company. I have heard that older Tormek machines were equipped with this wheel.

Pretty sure it's the same wheel.  Here's a bit of info I found...

Japanese Water Stone Wheel Sun Tiger Grain Size 4000
Improve your Tormek with these premier Japanese water stone wheels, made by Matsunaga (Brands: King and Sun Tiger) With the 4000 grain size you achieve a mirror polished edge. Specially recommended for those who sharpen a lot of knives and want a perfectly sharp edge without using a leather strip.

Either way, if it's a 4K wheel... it's a polish/finishing wheel... not a sharpening wheel.  (A replacement for the stock wheel, would be the 800g Japanese Waterstone version).

[jspill]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I found out just what I needed to know.

[cbwx34]

You're welcome... hope it helped.

[Ken S]

I think the question needs a more thorough answer. Unfortunately, I have not seen any reliable, thorough head to head test of the Tormek SJ grinding wheel and the Sun Tiger wheel. I own an SJ-250. I rarely use it, however, it seems like a quality product. It fits well and polishes well. I do not own a SunTiger 4000 grit wheel, so I cannot comment about it.

I do own a King 600 grit grinding wheel. I purchased it several years ago based on Ionut's recommendation. I tried it once, was not impressed, and put it away. I freely admit this was not a fair test. The SG-250 cut better. The King wheel sort of worked with the Tormek. At 254mm diameter, I suspect it is actually a ten inch wheel rather than 250mm. It was a tight fit in the water trough. The bore fit was too tight. Mounting and dismounting was a hassle. There was no inset in the outer edge.

I do not mean to imply that non Tormek grinding wheels are inferior. I would also not accept a verdict that other brands are "just as good as Tormek wheels" without supporting tests or experience from someone I trust.

I recently watched a you tube video of the SJ-250. I have seen several reviews by this reviewer. He seems fair minded and has some experience. Two things in the video gave me pause. First, he fumbled with the EZYlock. Instead of turning the grinding wheel to lightly tighten the EZYlock and letting the motor do the rest. No big deal, just not polished technique. The second thing, which I have noticed in you tubes by other sharpeners, was when he showed much reduced scratch patterns "in just five minutes". I wish he had spent more time and properly finished the job. No one who uses a 4000 grit SJ grinding wheel is in a hurry. Why not complete the job?

I am not opposed to using non Tormek grinding wheels. I have had very good results with two Norton 3X wheels and three CBN wheels. For day to day sharpening, my go to grinding wheel has always been the SG. For my work, the leather honing wheel provides acceptable polish. For a higher polish, I would turn to my SJ-250. Other wheels might work just as well, or they might not. I know the SJ will do the job.

Ken

[wootz]

Ken, you're absolutely right about the #4000 Matsunaga (Sun-Tiger).
I got one over year ago out of curiosity, and have been using it and SJ-250, and SJ-250 is superior in every aspect.
#4000 Matsunaga (Sun-Tiger) wobbles, flakes, and doesn't polish as well as SJ-250.

I've almost stopped using the #4000 Matsunaga wheel by now.

#800 Matsunaga wheel is, however, a different story - it is a must have. The Japanese grit JIS #800 corresponds to the European FEPA #1200, i.e. is somewhat finer than "finely" graded Tormek's SG-250.

[Ken S]

Excellent post, Wootz. (I would expect no less from you!) This is the kind of side by side testing by a reputable person that I have been looking for.

As I have both a T7 and a T8, I will try placing my SG-250 on one graded coarse and my finer King stone on the other.

Ken

[jeffs55]

I have that wheel and have no problem with it within its limits. It is a polishing wheel and that is all. It is just so you can say you used a 4000 grit wheel on your edge. There is no benefit in the real world.

[wootz]

I have that wheel and have no problem with it within its limits. It is a polishing wheel and that is all. It is just so you can say you used a 4000 grit wheel on your edge. There is no benefit in the real world.

Sure. Even going from the original SG grit #220 straight to honing, you still get a shaving edge ("scraping shaving" to be exact).
But in paid sharpening, the customer returns when you do at least some bevel polishing.
Safe queens require the fine SJ

[jeffs55]

Sure. Even going from the original SG grit #220 straight to honing, you still get a shaving edge ("scraping shaving" to be exact).
But in paid sharpening, the customer returns when you do at least some bevel polishing.
Safe queens require the fine SJ

As we all know, the customer is never right
[/quote]

[cbwx34]

"Polish level" shouldn't be the only thing to look at... typically a harder medium will leave a crisper more refined edge (and retain more 'bite'), than a comparable finish level on a softer medium like leather.  You should be seeing a difference in how the knife/tool actually performs.  That, to me is the indicator of whether or not something should be used.  "Polish" becomes a byproduct.

[RichColvin]

I have found that a good practice is to

• sharpen with the SB or SG stone, and then
• sharpen a microbevel on the SJ stone (with around 2 degrees greater included angle).

Then, I can re-sharpen quickly on the SJ stone a number of times before having to go back to the SB/SG stone.

But this works for me as I am only sharpening my own knives.

Rich

[Kavik]

I'm with cbwx on this one. Given the choice, and not concerned about the cost, I'd prefer refining an edge on a finer stone and rely less on leather loaded with abrasives to finish the job

Is it necessary though? Well, that's entirely up to you and what you're going to use the knife/tool for.
Comparing to use of bench stones, as i have more experience there and the idea carries just the same to grinding wheels: I've owned stones ranging from 220 to around 18k, in addition to a set of diamond plates (the grits of which escape me at the moment), and lapping films
-Cheap kitchen knives with softer steels stop at the 2k stone (only because i need to get another stone in the 1-1,200 range,or I would stop there. Coincidentally, it's a King 1k I've  been meaning to order, it gets great reviews for the price)
-My Japanese knives of better and harder steel go up to the 5k stone (and yes, for these i find the difference to be noticeable and worthwhile for the extra 5 minutes it takes to polish on one more stone)
-the diamond plates had been relegated to chisels and plane blades only. Sometimes to be followed up on a leather bench strop loaded with crox, but again, only if the job really requires a perfect finish straight off the tool with no sanding needed
-anything above the 5k stone is straight razor polishing territory, unless I just feel like screwing around and showing off a crazy overkill finish on a knife just for the fun of it.

But back to the question of "is it necessary"; I once followed a thread on another board where members were challenged to sharpen and use straight razors off nothing more than a 1k stone for a month.  Many were able to do it successfully (i was not). And i don't mean "scraping shaving", as wootz so aptly put it, but hair popping above the surface of the skin sharp.
The point of that experiment was to prove that ability to cut is a matter of your bevel setting, and how cleaning you can make the two sides meet at the edge. Anything beyond that point, like others here have said, is just polishing.
When gliding a blade along your face, polishing could be the difference between the feel of a smooth new disposable razor and one that's a week old and a bit grabby. Both are still sharp enough to sever hairs, but one is definitely smoother  on your skin, right? The same applies to a bevel rubbing a wood surface, or gliding through delicate foods.
When pushing a chisel through wood, a polished bevel could leave a glass like surface.... But if you're planning to sand anyway, or say you're chiseling out dovetails where a) the surface will never be seen and b) you want the pores open to accept glue,  you don't necessarily want that anyway.

Forgetting looks, unless that's reaaaaallly important for your purposes, each tool should be sharpened only to the max level that will actually be a benefit to the tool. Anything else is a waste of time, effort and money.

Long story short (sorry, very bored at work today lol) I think the very first question that should've been asked here is: what are YOU sharpening? Then better opinions could be given on whether or not a polishing wheel would be a benefit to your particular needs