questions to ask when considering a wet grinder

[Ken S]

When I shop for a tool, I generally think long term.  What would I look for when considering  a wet grinder?

In a new wet grinder, I would look for a solid and long term warranty.

In any wet grinder, new or used, I would look for a stainless steel shaft and grinding wheel lock nut. A new unit should come with a stainless steel shaft. In an older used model, I would insist that a stainless shaft be available as a replacement part. I would factor the cost of a replacement shaft into the total cost of the wet grinder. For me, no stainless shaft would mean no go. A wet grinder, by definition works in a wet, rust prone environment.

The second requirement would be easily accessible replacement parts and repairs. I would impose this requirement for both new and used models.

The third requirement would be the manufacturer providing a well designed grinding wheel truing tool. This should be a proper truing tool designed for a wet grinder, not a hand me down ancient idea from dry grinding.

Going from deal breakers to "nice to have",  I would look for a universal support bar with some sort of fine adjust capability.

Depending upon the intended use, it would be nice to have up to date jigs for the desired functions.

Very few users need a wet grinder with all the bells and whistles. All grinders need to be able to true and dress the grinding wheels. All who plan to keep the grinder for a longer time should insist on a stainless shaft. Anyone trying to use a wet grinder without the proper jigs is imposing a handicap upon his work efficiency.

I would impose the same evaluation upon any wet grinder, regardless of manufacturer. A well chosen wet grinder should last for decades. Choose well.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I wouldn't recommend that someone new to using a Tormek buy a used machine. It requires too much specialized knowledge to avoid the pitfalls and seek out the true bargains. Personally, if I found a used Tormek for sale I'd offer to buy it, but I have a very good idea of what it's worth. For example, if I were buying it primarily for the grindstone, I'd insist on removing it from the main shaft to make sure it's not rusted in place.

[Ken S]

I agree, Herman. A beginner does not need the potential pitfalls of many used tools. With the very strong used Tormek market, most of the time a used Tormek is priced too high to be a good value compared to a new model with the warranty.

Ken

[Rob]

I agree, Herman. A beginner does not need the potential pitfalls of many used tools. With the very strong used Tormek market, most of the time a used Tormek is priced too high to be a good value compared to a new model with the warranty.

Ken

Surely, logic dictates you cant have it both ways Ken.  Either the quality and longevity you cite the Tormek as being famous for also means it follows that 2nd hand models are worth serious consideration (because they will remain robust for long periods).

Personally, I have found that in the main, 2nd hand tools when robustly constructed do hold up well to 2nd or even 3rd hand use.  My rule of thumb is "the more cast iron the better" but the Tormek I would include in that category as it's clearly well made. The shaft and the drive wheel are really the only weak spots aren't they and as Stig said in a different thread, the drive wheels only at risk if handling repeated installation of the strop has been poor.  Both relatively easy to diagnose (assuming one has visual access to the machine).  I've always felt that when a 2nd hand market has buoyant pricing, it's usually for a good reason ie the value is there.  Tormek's hold their used price because they are generally good and hence the market has settled on a correct determination of their price.  Clearly a new buyer is taking more risk than a machine with warranty but it's a risk worthy of consideration.

[Ken S]

In my opinion, if we stitch together Herman's and Rob's thoughts, they form a good answer. For an experienced user, who can spot and correct problems, a vintage Tormek, at the right price, is tempting. It would certainly tempt me. I would have no problem with an older SuperGrind, provided the key parts noted by Rob were in good condition. Please note, I would factor things like the presence or absense of an EZYlock shaft, microadjust universal support, and TT-50 into the value. While a nice old SuperGrind is a fine machine, it should not be valued as a new Tormek with all the improvements.

Back to Herman's thought, I believe a beginner needs as few problems as possible. An older machine may work flawlessly, or it may not. Chances are any problems can be fixed, usually for a price. If an older model needs a replacement shaft and grinding wheel, at $50 it may be a good deal. As the used price gets higher, new looks better and better. If a beginner is fortunate enough to have a knowledgeable friend or family member, so much the better. If not, please take the safe path and buy new through a local authorized dealer, if possible.

Ken

[Rob]

When I shop for a tool, I generally think long term.  What would I look for when considering  a wet grinder?

In a new wet grinder, I would look for a solid and long term warranty.

In any wet grinder, new or used, I would look for a stainless steel shaft and grinding wheel lock nut. A new unit should come with a stainless steel shaft. In an older used model, I would insist that a stainless shaft be available as a replacement part. I would factor the cost of a replacement shaft into the total cost of the wet grinder. For me, no stainless shaft would mean no go. A wet grinder, by definition works in a wet, rust prone environment.

The second requirement would be easily accessible replacement parts and repairs. I would impose this requirement for both new and used models.

The third requirement would be the manufacturer providing a well designed grinding wheel truing tool. This should be a proper truing tool designed for a wet grinder, not a hand me down ancient idea from dry grinding.

Going from deal breakers to "nice to have",  I would look for a universal support bar with some sort of fine adjust capability.

Depending upon the intended use, it would be nice to have up to date jigs for the desired functions.

Very few users need a wet grinder with all the bells and whistles. All grinders need to be able to true and dress the grinding wheels. All who plan to keep the grinder for a longer time should insist on a stainless shaft. Anyone trying to use a wet grinder without the proper jigs is imposing a handicap upon his work efficiency.

I would impose the same evaluation upon any wet grinder, regardless of manufacturer. A well chosen wet grinder should last for decades. Choose well.

Ken

Oh Ken, sometimes you're about as subtle as a "hang gliding nudist" :-)

Why not just say "a critical feature of a wet grinder is...does it have the letters T.O.R.M.E.K written on the packaging"?

Surely the true measure of any tool (free from commercial bias) should be:  Will it produce the results I ask of it, for a decent amount of time, for a reasonable cost and allied to a decent amount of time, is it likely to break?  Once you get locked into these kinds of "feature dumps" one's objectivity becomes opaque to say the least and it just turns into a massive selling fest.

What's important to consumers aren't features but benefits.  Please can we avoid these sorts of advert style feature lists and if we cant, then at least position them in the context of the results (benefits) they deliver to the user.

Sorry to be so contrary but I read that post and immediately wanted to throw up :-)  Not what I expect of the high quality round here.

[Jan]

Rob, I understand your dissatisfaction concerning advertisement style of some Ken's contributions. Sometimes it is a hidden advert which can be digested but in this case it was simply a list of deficiencies of one competing product. Ken's intention was good but it does not fully justify the style. 

Ken is for me a distant wise friend. What concerns his attitude to Tormek, I think, he is a "good and faithful servant". 

Jan

[Ken S]

Rob,

I should state my motivation for starting this topic. I try to be knowledgeable about the various wet grinders on the market. I do not do this to propagandize the Tormek or denigrate other products. I have received PMs (personal messages) from new members seeking advice in making their decision about purchasing a wet grinder. I want my replies to be informed and honest. 

I like your true measure of any tool concept. I tried to avoid pushing features. I specifically avoided mentioning the EZYlock feature of the Tormek shaft. I would classify that as a feature. Having the main shaft and nut frozen by rust to the grinding wheel surely fits into your "likely to break" category. Tormek realized this problem and corrected it ten years ago by switching to stainless steel shafts. I would classify the need for good access to repair parts in this same category.

Traditional grinding wheels, wet or dry, need to be kept trued and dressed. In fact, good practice dictates that a grinding wheel be initially trued before its first use. An out of true or glazed grinding wheel is not broken, but it certainly is not healthy. Tormek does not escape my criticism on this point. While I like he T4, I do not consider it a workable unit as it is packaged. The package lacks the TT-50 truing tool.

I have an issue with companies who sell wet grinders who make no effort to produce a proper truing tool. Copy pasting a fifty plus year old industrial dry grinder booklet recommending a star dresser doesn't cut it.

My criticisms about lack of fine adjust for the universal support and outdated jigs may actually fall into the features category. However, I think it is unfair to withhold this advice from someone who is about to spend a considerable amount of money on any tool.

I hold Tormek to the same scrutiny as any other product. I realize Tormek is one of the more expensive options. As such, it is more of an investment than a source of immediate gratification. If another product or a second or third hand Tormek is the only financially realistic choice, by all means go for it. All I want is for someone to be fully informed when making that decision.

Rob, you are correct. I will refrain from any more posting of this kind of topic.

Ken

[Ken S]

Jan,

Thank you for your thoughts. I have described myself as both the chief cheerleader and the chief critic on the forum. (Rob has claimed the title of chief cynic, something we also need. )

If someone read through my posts, he would find I have often been critical of Tormek. I try to keep my criticism constructive and polite, but I am critical. On occasion, my criticism has been unjust. When I have become aware of this, I apologize, correct my statements, and move on. I try to avoid rash statements, but I do get annoyed sometimes. If I am a good and faithful servant, I think I can at least be an honest and sometimes annoying servant.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

When I shop for a tool, I generally think long term.  What would I look for when considering  a wet grinder?

In a new wet grinder, I would look for a solid and long term warranty.

In any wet grinder, new or used, I would look for a stainless steel shaft and grinding wheel lock nut. A new unit should come with a stainless steel shaft. In an older used model, I would insist that a stainless shaft be available as a replacement part. I would factor the cost of a replacement shaft into the total cost of the wet grinder. For me, no stainless shaft would mean no go. A wet grinder, by definition works in a wet, rust prone environment.

The second requirement would be easily accessible replacement parts and repairs. I would impose this requirement for both new and used models.

The third requirement would be the manufacturer providing a well designed grinding wheel truing tool. This should be a proper truing tool designed for a wet grinder, not a hand me down ancient idea from dry grinding.

Going from deal breakers to "nice to have",  I would look for a universal support bar with some sort of fine adjust capability.

Depending upon the intended use, it would be nice to have up to date jigs for the desired functions.

Very few users need a wet grinder with all the bells and whistles. All grinders need to be able to true and dress the grinding wheels. All who plan to keep the grinder for a longer time should insist on a stainless shaft. Anyone trying to use a wet grinder without the proper jigs is imposing a handicap upon his work efficiency.

I would impose the same evaluation upon any wet grinder, regardless of manufacturer. A well chosen wet grinder should last for decades. Choose well.

Ken

Oh Ken, sometimes you're about as subtle as a "hang gliding nudist" :-)

Why not just say "a critical feature of a wet grinder is...does it have the letters T.O.R.M.E.K written on the packaging"?

Surely the true measure of any tool (free from commercial bias) should be:  Will it produce the results I ask of it, for a decent amount of time, for a reasonable cost and allied to a decent amount of time, is it likely to break?  Once you get locked into these kinds of "feature dumps" one's objectivity becomes opaque to say the least and it just turns into a massive selling fest.

What's important to consumers aren't features but benefits.  Please can we avoid these sorts of advert style feature lists and if we cant, then at least position them in the context of the results (benefits) they deliver to the user.

Sorry to be so contrary but I read that post and immediately wanted to throw up :-)  Not what I expect of the high quality round here.

Ken's comments are both an ad, as well as hindsight from owning (a couple) of Tormek's.  I agree with your assessment of the measure of the tool.
Tormek has clones, on the base of a now expired patent. Some have already come and gone, while others remain.  One of the "clone" makers, was even connected with Tormek for a bit. http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3097.0
While I think Ken's post was directed at me, for asking a question about a clone (which can use Tormek Jigs/stones, etc), I think one should also consider expiring patents, and clones, help drive companies to innovate, so the products don't become overpriced, stale offerings.  The T2000/T-7's that I have bought, are rated for 24/7 use (been debated here, on motor rating), where someone who might sharpen once or twice a year (or don't think they will stay with a hobby that it is bought for), might be better off looking at either a clone (and getting decent jigs) or looking at used.  It is an individual decision.

[Rob]

I hope my comments haven't caused any offence because that's not the intention.  On a personal level, as far as I'm concerned Ken is one of the most delightful people I have ever had the good fortune to meet (digitally speaking of course).  Bright eyed and bushy tailed, a proper gentleman and literally filled with, to use an ancient Greek word, enthusiasmos.

I think my life's greatest bugbear, what needle's me more than any other thing is where information is printed with the intention of influencing a decision.  In other words, "persuasive" language.  Literally, the word is rhetorical language.  Rhetoric being the ancient study of persuasive language.

It gets used consistently as we all know by politicians, marketing departments, advertising agencies and sole proprietors et al in order to motivate our behaviour.  Lets face it, we're surrounded by it.  Screaming at us from the radio, TV, packaging etc.

One of my great pleasures is taking 10, 20, 30 minutes of quiet time with a nice cup of coffee, made with freshly ground, medium roast beans and steamed milk, and having a "canter" through this and one other woodworking forum I frequent.  It opens a window into a world where engineering minds and creative "makers" thrive.  These minds are entirely different (usually) from the frenetic, selling machine running at a million miles an hour just beyond the front door.  These minds are enquiring, problem solving, engaged in hot pursuit of a tricky solution to a head scratching challenge.  Delightful minds, interesting challenges and some incredible solutions.....a veritable Sherlock Holmes in terms of the mystery and intrigue of some of the problems!

So when all that lovely, craftsman like gentility is punctuated with (what looked to me at face value) a dirty great sales pitch with such a clear and obvious agenda, I will have to ask you to excuse the odd wisp of cynicism.  You see, scratch the surface of a cynic......and you'll find an idealist underneath :-)

[Ken S]

No offense taken. Rob, you remind me of a delightful character in a new movie, Angry Birds. He is lovable and courageous. Bomb Bird also occasionally explodes. It's just part of his charm, and is instrumental in saving the birds' eggs.

Regarding the nudist hang gliding, please don't knock it until you have tried it. 

I realize the topic probably reads as a sales pitch for Tormek. That was not really my intention. I had just added and skimmed another wet grinder manual in my ibooks folder. One more dry grinder company pretending to understand wet grinding and copying Tormek's older (and already replaced) jigs, without making any original contributions of note.

SADW, this topic was not directed at you. A healthy forum needs differing views. You and I occasionally see things differently, however, I respect your thoughts and encourage you to be true to your own ideas. You are an experienced Tormeker, most probably more so than me. I know that any decisions you might make would be based on eyes open solid experience.

The topic was written for new members and guests considering an initial wet grinder purchase. We often have more guests than members reading on the forum. The issues I chose to highlight are forum based problems. Ask Herman or Elden about rusty shafts. Tormek corrected this problem ten years ago, and the new stainless shafts can easily be retrofitted to older Tormeks. Tormek has no patent on stainless steel; other companies are ignoring the problem.

How about saving money by getting by with a less expensive wet grinder and using Tormek jigs? This might work, but it sounds to me like skimping on the power train of a vehicle in order to have nicer seat upolstery.

I think a better option for those on a really tight budget would be looking for a good deal on a used Tormek. You would get the heavy duty power train and could add the upolstery later. I would add the TT-50 truing tool and microadjust universal support before a stainless shaft if the shaft is still good. You might be perfectly happy not to replace the shaft with good regular maintenance. Just keep in mind the cost of a new complete Tormek with a warranty. In my opinion, most older Tormeks are priced too high to represent a value alternative to a new model. Very few users need all the jigs.

I might have gone the used Tormek path if I had found a good deal at the time. Several of my power tools are from the 1930s, and many of my hand tools are older than that.

I apologize for disturbing the precious sanctity of your coffee time. Coffee tranquility is treasured. I will refrain from posts which appear to be sales driven and trust the new members are guests will do their due filigence.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Surely, logic dictates you cant have it both ways Ken.  Either the quality and longevity you cite the Tormek as being famous for also means it follows that 2nd hand models are worth serious consideration (because they will remain robust for long periods).

Anything can go wrong, Rob, so having the warranty even on the most robust of machines, is an advantage. Someone new to Tormek might not have the knowledge (that comes with experience) to be able to select a good used machine at the appropriate price.

Also, newer machines have some much better features than older ones. Then there's the issue of getting the right jigs. Again, a knowledgeable user can navigate these waters, but a newbie, not so much.

[Rob]

Sure, of course any warranty is an advantage, no one is going to argue with that statement.  But the 2nd hand debate is one of risk.  I'm arguing that one cannot on the one hand promote a machine's robust and long lasting quality without also conceding that those very same machine's are at low risk of needing warranty work for some considerable time.  Tormek do offer 7 years after all which is pretty much industry beating.  Why?  Because they know that on average, their machine's won't break during that time, such is their confidence in the manufacturing and materials quality.

Now the question of whether or not a newbie has the knowledge and experience to discern good from bad, I agree that's a tough one because as you say, it's born out of experience.  But if the statement in para 1 is true, and I certainly believe it is, then at the right price, any given 2nd hand Tormek, within 7 years of age, should be worth considering because it's likely to function OK.  The point being, the low risk of error should give a newbie the same comfort as that famous warranty (or close to but not mathematically identical).

[Ken S]

Rob,

I think you are spot on with your comment, "at the right price". In my opinion, the problem with much of the second hand Tormek market is that the pricing is not logical.

Let's set a minimum risk price point. In the US, a brand new T8 should be readily available from multiple dealers for $699. This price includes free shipping. It also includes the latest SE-77, the zinc drive wheel, the other latest features, TT-50 truing tool and a seven year warranty.


For $600, while supplies last, one can get a new, ten year warranty T7. It will not have the latest T8 bells and whistles. It comes with the older, but proven SE-76. You should get free shipping with this.

For $399, you can get a new, warranteed T4, also with free shipping. The T4 comes with no square edge jig, or jig of any sort. It does not come with a TT-50 truing tool.

My T 7 has served me very well for many years, and I like my T4, also. However, compared with the price of a new T8, I feel both are overpriced. In my opinion, a new T8 represents the best value.

I have nothing against buying second hand, however, most of the used Tormeks I have seen for sale are, in my opinion, priced much too high to represent a good value. With any used object, a certain amount of extra risk is introduced. I do not feel the buyer is being compensated for that risk.

Any T7 in good condition is probably a low risk purchase, as are many SuperGrinds. However, the price should reflect the wear and tear on the machine as well as the grinding wheel. If the machine has been consistently upgraded with improvements, that would increase its value. In previous discussions, I remember US $200 to $250 as being a good buying range for an older T7. I do not remember seeing a T7 offered for sale in that price range.

I do not feel that the pricing is "at the right price" in the second hand market to be a good value.

One should also keep in mind that any jigs included with an older Tormek have probably been replaced with newer models. This does not mean that the older jigs will not work. It does mean that the ir value should not be calculated the same as new jigs.

Ken