a new angle setting tool

[WolfY]

Thanks Ken and guys for your help.
It would br great if you could gear up and as team complete it to a final Product. I just don't have enough time and tools to speed it up.

[Jan]

Pls find hereby my knife angle master project. Had no time to work on it further. It has similar thinking but I also made it versatile for different angles and protrusion combinations.

Anyone who wants to continue this project is welcome.

For the correct functioning of the setter the position of the centre of rotation of the arm is crucial. 

The arm should pivot around a centre situated between the metallic discs at a place where the tool meets the grindstone. I have added this position as a red dot to WolfY's sketch. This point is slightly beyond the setter base. It is challenging, nevertheless it can be realised.   



Jan

[Ken S]

Jan,

I had not thought of pivoting around a specific point along the arc. (Is arc the correct term?) My original idea did not include automatic diameter correction, and was only designed for one angle and protrusion. I believe these more sophisticated models are definitely improvements.

WolfY,

The three hash lines on the main jig near the pivot point, are they for different angles?

Will there be calibration marks on the extendable lever?

I look forward to learning more about this jig!

Ken

[Jan]

Ken, my comment in reply #91 concerns a setter which includes an automatic diameter correction.

If the setter should be designed only for one specific stone diameter the situation is significantly simpler. 

Jan

[WolfY]

The model I was working on is only a first thoughts put in a 3D draw without to much detail thoughts.
Yes, the markes are for different angles and the arm for different protrusion. There should be marks for it too.
Naturally different design and Mark I g solutions are welcome as I also have some thoughts about it. But most important is to figure out the settings and see if they work on all stone diameters and most common knife widths.

[Ken S]

Jan,

I realized the point was for automatic diameter correction. I assume the point will be equidistant between the wheels.?

The more I use the Tormek, the more I value automatic diameter correction. My present SG-250 is actually an SZg-238. My SB-250 is presently an SB-247. Both are in gradual flux. If I had a sharpening business, they would be in greater flux.

Ken

[Jan]

Jan,

I realized the point was for automatic diameter correction. I assume the point will be equidistant between the wheels.?

Ken

Yes Ken, you are correct. The position of the pivot point (shown as red dot) is better visible in the 2D drawing below:



Because this pivot point is beyond the setter base, the solution is not easy. E.g.: the rotary arm of the WolfY's setter may be guided by two concentric rings with the centre in the pivot point.

I am really afraid that this is too complicated for the majority of forum members.

Jan

[Ken S]

Jan,

Your drawing is quite remarkable!

Ken

[WolfY]

On the last few days I'm bothered with the thoughts about this topic.

Is it important to have a jig for knife or is it preferably to use the marker method and the experience as sharpener knowing by experience how to adjust the sharpening angle.

Will it really help or just make it more time consuming dealing with details. How accurate will it be compared to working without a jig.

Is working with the WM-200 good enough and can get me close to the angle I'm looking for anyway without complicating it.

One reason I don't like the WM-200 is the fact that you have to look at it from the side when the knife is on the stone, having the knife point, pointing at you and endanger the viewer, if by mistake getting to close for the reading.

Another reasons I let of using the WM-200 for knifes is the fact that most chef's knives are shaped as long triangle and sometime with convex form making it difficult to measure.
Does it matter? I know that the unparalleled form is "worth" about 1.5 dgrs on each side. Why not just subtract if from the reading and be as close as possible for the starting point and continue from there?

Just some thoughts. Mostly cause I have to teach other users (chefs, butchers etc...) how to find the sharpening angle easily.

[SharpenADullWitt]

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid.....


I think the marker method is quite fine for matching the angle.  Where the anglemaster  comes in handy is for us, more occasional sharpeners and those who want to change the angles.  Some of the pro sharpeners, or those that have more experience then I and some others do (and those who aren't afraid of ahem, screwing up someones good knives), can probably do the freehand thing well.

Those that you teach, show them the techniques that you know (both jig and not) and let them choose what works for them.

[Ken S]

WolfY,

I have found the Anglemaster to be a valuable tool for setting a new bevel angle. When the existing bevel angle is to be replicated and is still enough remaining to use the marker, I prefer to use the marker method.

The Anglemaster works fine by itself with tools like chisels and plane irons, which have a large flat measuring surface. With tools like knives, which have narrow bevels and tapered surfaces, I prefer to substitute a piece of flat metal or plastic in the jig which has the same protrusion and approximate same thickness.

The Anglemaster must be used in strong light to work efficiently. General overhead shop lighting is insufficient for this.

My reservation with the Anglemaster is that it requires going through the set up routine with each tool. This is not a problem with one tool, however, quickly becomes tedious with multiple tools.

My purpose in developing the kenjig was to simplify knife set up for the beginner and make sharpening with knife jigs more efficient for the business sharpener. A farmers' market sharpener, like Steve, must be able to quickly sharpen perhaps a hundred knives in a morning. Individual set up with the Anglemaster is too slow in this environment, as is use of the marker. That's why freehand sharpening is the general practice.

Steve has made the comment that even with his years of experience, careful freehand sharpening does not equal the precision of using a Tormek knife jig. The actual grinding time is the same, whether the sharpener grinds freehand or with a Tormek knife jig. The difference is the time required for set up. That is where the kenjig and later versions come into play.

There are two elements in set up: 1) the distance between the universal support and the grinding wheel and 2) the protrusion of the jig and knife from the universal support. Once these two are initially set, there is no need to waste time with individual set up.

The kenjig can be made for any bevel angle. On Stig's advice, I chose fifteen degrees bevel angle (thirty degrees edge angle. See the handbook for these definitions.) The jig was designed using Dutchman's tables from the forum.

The distance from the universal support to the grinding wheel is quickly set once. As long as the knives to be sharpened have fifteen degree bevel angles, there is no need to change this.

I use three Tormek knife jigs, the regular knife jig with the small blade tool for paring knives; one (a discontinued but available used SVM-100) for slicing knives; and the SVM-140 for chef's knives. All knives are set to the common protrusion distance of 139mm. With a little care in placing the knives in the jigs, the protrusion setting of the jigs should rarely need any fine tuning.

Setup approaches being automatic and should come close to working freehand. It is also consistent.

Later versions of the jig, such as the Han-Jig, have incorporated settings for different bevel angles and automatic correction for wheel diameter reduction. Both of these are notable improvements.

There is still a need for freehand sharpening skill and Herman's small blade jig. When I demonstrated the Tormek, I was surprised how many people carry very small pen knives, the term going back to the era when these small knives were actually used for quill pens. The Tormek small blade tool works well with carving tools with very small blades and generous handles. It works less well with pen knives with tiny handles. Herman's jig or freehand shine here.

Ken

[WolfY]

Steve has made the comment that even with his years of experience, careful freehand sharpening does not equal the precision of using a Tormek knife jig.

Can't agree more. Freehand sharpening is "not" Tormek It is impossible to sharpen precise no matter how experienced you are. There are just too many forces that affect the movement.
In my opinion setting the knife in a jig is what makes the big difference and advantage compared to others. Why take that away? It only takes 10 seconds to do it.
Besides I'm keeping the jig for honing too giving me more control of the honing process. I don't turn the machine 180 dgrs. Just holding the knife edge towards me, after sharpening against the wheel.

All knives are set to the common protrusion distance of 139mm. Why the hack 139 and not 140?

The only problem with 139mm or another set is that the jig have only 13mm space inside and you need minimum 2~3 mm to hold the knife, giving you 10mm play. The other place to control the protrusion is the adjusting knob that gives about 20mm. Probably it's enough for most chef's knives but not all knifes.

Having to sharpen lots of knives on an afternoon in the market is not giving enough time to start measuring the angles. I'm not sure it's even necessary. Measuring is good only for beginners before they  got the feeling for the angle and for ppl that really ask for specific angle.

Cheers

WolfY

[Jan]

May be you know I have developed a special platform for sharpening knifes in a horizontal position.





When the blade is horizontal, than the laser line defines the bevel angle. The laser line can be also used without the platform for freehand sharpening and will help you to sharpen the desired bevel angle (18^o for the situation shown in the picture above). 

Jan

[Ken S]

WolfY,

Re: your paragraph beginning with "the only problem" : I agree. That's why I use separate jigs for paring, slicing, and chef's knives. That lets me leave each jig set very close to the final setting. We have some wiggle room with the knife placement, and can fine tune with the jig protrusion if necessary.

There will be some fine tuning, however, it should be minor.

Incidentally, I use one of Robin Bailey's oversize universal supports and a second kenjig for sharpening my Chinese cleaver. That's another story........

Ken

[WolfY]

Jan,

That was an ambitious project. Very nice. Kan you make a VDO of you sharpening different knives on it?

Ken,

"the only problem" and another (knife centering) with the standard knife jigs is sort of solved. I'm waiting for a friend to help me with the real prototype. Don't tell anyone

WolfY