a new angle setting tool

[Ken S]

No problem, WolfY, my lips are sealed.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

On the last few days I'm bothered with the thoughts about this topic.

Is it important to have a jig for knife or is it preferably to use the marker method and the experience as sharpener knowing by experience how to adjust the sharpening angle.

I think, both. Sometimes I want to match an existing angle, other times I need to establish the angle.

Will it really help or just make it more time consuming dealing with details. How accurate will it be compared to working without a jig.

To me, this is a separate issue. Knowing the angle is one thing, but keeping the angle consistent is another. You definitely need to keep the angle constant as you grind. Some people can do this by eye, but I'm not one of them. I need some kind of a jig to keep the angle consistent. Whether that angle was established using the marker method, or is a known number of degrees.

[Ken S]

One of the things I find so fascinating about working with the Tormek is its versatility. One can follow the "orthodox" Tormek technique and obtain very acceptably sharp results. This may or may not be the most practical choice in all situations. Even the "holy scriptures", the handbook, sometimes offers different methods. In addition to using the Anglemaster, the black marker is suggested. Digging a little deeper, one will find the use of gage blocks to set the distance (between the universal support and the grinding wheel).

My kenjig combines a variation on the wooden gage blocks with the wooden stop block technique used commonly before the TTS-100. These techniques still work and, in my opinion, are more accurate than continuing remeasurement with the Anglemaster.

The Anglemaster offers a reliable technique. I found my greatest difficulty in using it was overcome by using proper light. This is actually discussed in the handbook.

Countless tools were sharpened with the Tormek before the present jigs, even before the universal support. The well trained Tormeker will be fluent with several techniques. I watched an experienced Tormek sharpener struggling to sharpen a very small and very dull parting tool with the prescribed jig. The tool really was too small for the jig. Using just the universal support would have made quick work of the job.

We need to be versatile as ooerators of this versatile machine.

Ken

[grepper]

Of course I could be laboring under a delusion, but I am dubious that anyone can really hand sharpen and maintain a truly consistent angle.

If you know of someone who can do it, take a knife they have sharpened, put it under a microscope and examine the bevel. 

I'll bet a proper pint there is micro beveling up and down along the "main" bevel.

That doesn't mean it won't be sharp, it just shows wasted strokes away from the cutting edge. 

Sometimes when a jig won't work, or it's just quicker and/or "good enough" hand sharpening is super quick and just fine.  Onion other hand, if someone is all fussy about a perfect bevel and specific angle, for me at least and jig is necessary.

[WolfY]

I agree with you Herman and Grepper.

After I've "studied" some VDO's of freehand sharpeners and I can bet 100% for sure no matter how experienced the sharpener is, he can't hold the knife 100% at the right angle either from beginning of the process or during it, for sure. As there is friction against the stone the hand will move back and forth and "loose" the angle.
For those who don't agree, it's easy to see if you make a VDO of yourself, freehand sharpening, using camera angle from the side of the stone.

I use jig 100% of the time. It's accurate and saves time.

[Ken S]

WolfY,

You are making the original point of this topic. I think we all agree that using the Tormek knife jigs is the best way to make accurate bevels. I also think we all agree that the time involved in traditional set up of the knife in the jig, especially when a variety of knives must be sharpened in a limited time, is a slower process than sharpening free hand. The purpose of our forum designed and made tools is to lessen the time gap between the two and make jig sharpening more practical (and profitable) for a busy sharpener.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I also think we all agree that the time involved in traditional set up of the knife in the jig, especially when a variety of knives must be sharpened in a limited time, is a slower process than sharpening free hand.

Sorry, Ken, I can't agree with that. With my homemade platform jig I can sharpen a variety of knives after setting up the jig just one time. Also, since I don't need to use one hand to hold the jig in place, I have a free hand available to adjust the height of the Universal Support. The other hand is holding the Angle Master. As long as each knife is sharpened at the same bevel angle, I don't need to make any adjustments between knives. If I do have to change the bevel angle, it's a quick and easy process. I don't know why Tormek doesn't make a platform jig like this. It's really the same jig as the SVD-110 Tool Rest, but with the platform much closer to the Universal Support.

[Ken S]

Herman,

You are quite correct. I did not intentionally omit your platform jig; I just think of it as a slightly different, but very effective path and my peripheral vision wasn't working very well. Your platform jig is certainly as fast as freehand sharpening.. I can't speak from personal experience, however, I do not doubt that it is very sufficiently accurate.

I use the Tormek small blade tool with the kenjig because it allows the same protrusion with paring knives as the regular jigs with larger knives. Hence, the 139mm standard. I have found that Tormek's small blade tool works well with small blades, as long as they have reasonably large handles. For small knives, such as pen knives and scalples, the Tormek tool is no match for your platform jig. I have frequently posted my belief that a well equipped sharpener should have both.

As to why Tormek does not make a small platform jig, I have two thoughts:
1)The small platform does not grasp the knife securely. This does not seem to quite fit the Tormek "jig held" sharpening philosophy, althouth the regular Tormek platform jig does not grasp the knife, either.
2) Tormek, like any company, likes the financial security of holding patents on its products. As such, any early mention of an idea would weaken their chance of receiving a patent. Tormek may have chosen not to manufacture a small platform jig because it was born on this forum. That would be unfortunate, as I do not believe any of the forum pioneers wished to profit from the idea, and would prefer Tormek produce the jig.

As I have also stated before, I do not believe your platform jig has reached its full potential. I can see other uses for it, perhaps with interchangeable platforms.

Keep thinking!

Ken

[WolfY]

Sorry, Ken, I can't agree with that.

Herman,

Thanks for not agreing with Ken and mentioning your angle platform. It reminded Me that I saw it some time ago and forgot about. It seems to be simple to adjust and easy to use with different knife widths, keeping the preset angle constant. I will build one when back home from the holy Tormek land. Thanks Herman for the idea.

[Ken S]

WolfY,

Agreeing with me is certainly not a prerequisite for posting. 

I am pleased that my unintentional oversight got you thinking about Herman's plarform jig.  I remember the original posts. The topic started with a member wanting to sharpen very small knives. The recommended Tormek method at the time was freehand sharpening. (It is still shown in the handbook.) The problem with the Tormek platform jig is that it is too wide. It can be set for one bevel of a knife blade, but must be moved and reset to sharpen the second bevel.

The small platform jigs solved this problem by being made only to the width of the grinding wheel, 50mm. This allowed the full bevel to be ground on both sides of the blade without moving the platform. There were several early designs. Herman's idea worked the best because he used the scissors jig platform which has a lower center of gravity than the Tormek platform jig. (I know this from personal experience; my jigs are based on the higher Tormek platform which does not work as well.

The Tormek platform works fine with larger tools. I understand why any company would prefer to have thirteen jigs which cover most tools instead of twenty seven jigs for "compleat" coverage. Most customers seem to prefer simplicity.

I do not believe that the last chapter has been written about Herman's platform jig. I see a lot more potential in it, especially with interchangeable platforms. Herman has already taken his jig from small blades to machetes. Who knows what will be next.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Herman has already taken his jig from small blades to machetes. Who knows what will be next.

It's dandy for cleavers, too. I know that cleavers can be an issue with the Tormek knife jig if they are too wide. I believe Robin W invented a universal support with taller legs so that he could use the Tormek knife jig to sharpen his cleavers.

[WolfY]

It's really the same jig as the SVD-110 Tool Rest, but with the platform much closer to the Universal Support.

Herman, why didn' t you use the SVD110? It seems to be easy to just cut cut it down from both sides to the widths of the stone 50mm and use it direct.

[Ken S]

WolfY,

My homemade platform jigs (for both T4 and T7) are built on the SVD-110 platform. They work less well than Herman's design based on the scissors jig plarform, which has a lower center of gravity.

When we get beyond all the quite correct physics, I would guess Herman's choice may have been based on his already having the scissors jig and not the SVD-110, a happy combination of good theory and budget.

Ken

[WolfY]

I thought the coating was the reason. Thanks.

[Herman Trivilino]

Herman, why didn' t you use the SVD110? It seems to be easy to just cut cut it down from both sides to the widths of the stone 50mm and use it direct.

Its platform is too far away from the Universal Support rod. One is unable to grind at typical bevel angles for knives unless the knife is so wide as to actually be a cleaver.

These drawings show the dimension d, which is the distance from the platform to the Universal Support rod.

For the scissors jig:



And this for the SVD-110: