Rapid stone grader wear

[dgbingham]

I have had a Tormek Supergrind 2000 for many years but I have rarely used it because I did not get acceptable results with it; i.e., my tools were not even close to being sharp.  I recently watched the many videos available and learned that you needed to use the stone grader for about 30 seconds to change the apparent grit of the stone.   I had been using for a much shorter time and never really got the 1000 grit result and thus my tools were not sharp.  So, I used the grader as shown in the videos and was finally able to get acceptable results for one or two tools but then I noticed that only the edges of the stone were getting regraded and the center was still coarse.  Upon examining the stone grader, I saw that it had a deep oval shaped depression in the center of the fine side.  I worked the grading stone on a diamond lapping plate but the depression was just too deep to remove. This happened in one day with only three or four uses of the stone.  I had to buy a new stone grader.  Why could this be happening?  With all the positive reviews of this sharpening system, this can't be normal.  I was moving the stone grader around to try and use all of it but as the center began to wear out to the oval depression I would notice that it became kind of grabby as I moved it to the sides.  I should also say that the total time that the stone grader has been used on the fine side is less than 10 minutes total over the last 10 to 15 years.  I used moderate pressure on it meaning that I did put some downward pressure on it but not very much. 
I have invested so much money in this thing and all the accessories that I would really like to be able to use it.

[Ken S]

Donald,

Before working on your questions, I want to caution against trying to true a stone grader using a diamond lapping plate. I flattened the medium side of a dual sided oilstone using my DMT plate. The plate did flatten the stone, but, in the process, almost ruined the diamond plate. The stone was very much like the Tormek stone grader. The diamond lapping plate still cuts, but I can feel and hear the difference. I used much of the useful life of the diamond plate working on an old oilstone which probably cost my grandfather no more than a dollar. Stone graders are much less expensive than diamond lapping plates.

Even without the stone grader, your tools should be reasonably sharp. I have tried going directly from the coarse graded stone to the leather honing wheel. The result is not quite "Tormek sharp", but is acceptable for most work.

I suggest you read the Tormek Tips topic posted directly above this. I started this topic to assist forum members who are having difficulties with the Tormek.  By working only with a 3/4" chisel, you can learn to become proficient with the Tormek. Using the most basic tool, you become aware of the sound and feel of the grinding process.

I would suggest you purchase at least two 3/4" Irwin blue chip chisels. I recently purchased five to use as "sharpening chisels". Having more than one allows you to compare edges. Do not buy a set; stay with the 3/4" width. These Irwin chisels are inexpensive and available on Amazon. Think of them as a consumable part of your sharpening education.

One of the first skills you must master is using the diamond truing tool. You probably have the older model as well as the older universal support. I suggest you purchase the newer models of both. I am not trying to bankrupt you, however, the newer truing tool has a fine screw for a much more controlled cut and the newer universal support with acme thread and micro adjust allows you to have a controlled fine cut. With the improved versions of these tools and a little practice, you will have your stone working at peak performance. For good performance, this initial step is essential. (Make sure you do this wet.)

Once your grinding stone is trued, spend some time going back and forth with the stone grader. You must use the stone grader wet, just like grinding. You will hear and feel the difference when the wheel is fine or coarse. The Tormek wheel moves slowly enough that you can feel the moving stone. Your fingers will tell the story. When you begin, be over thorough in using the stone grader. Go back and forth a dozen times or more until you feel proficient. Then do some more.

At this point, you are ready to begin working with your sharpening chisel.

Many Tormek users have a mental block which will prevent them from really becoming fluent with the Tormek. You must think of the grinding wheel (and the stone grader) as consumable items. Think of them as brake shoes on a car. Yes, they are expensive, but they last a long time. They do their job and must eventually be replaced. Unlike the car, you will not wear out the Tormek. If you eventually wear down your Tormek grinding wheel, you will have earned skill which is worth much more than the cost of a replacement wheel.

The quickest way to become skilled is to work slowly and deliberately. Give yourself permission to grow and do keep us posted. We have all been where you are now.

Ken

[dgbingham]

My only problem and question is why the stone grader wears so fast.  Surely I can't be the only one to have this major problem.  The way it wears is a real problem as it does not work right after that happens.  I am sure the stone grader had some dishing from the few times I used it over the years but it went from not being noticeable to a fairly deep oval dish in less than 5 minutes of use and I was not bearing down hard on it and was moving it around so as try and even out the wear and of course I was using it wet. 

[Ken S]

I would not rule out the possibility of a defective stone grader. However, in six years of being active on this forum, I do not remember another similar post. We have had many posts concerning difficulties with using the stone grader. These posts have been numerous enough that I have suggested Tormek produce a short video concentrating on just using the stone grader. The product video does not seem to fill the need.

When you use your new stone grader, do you have the same problem?

I did not mean to be offensive when I asked about using the stone grader wet. The reason I posed that question was to be able to rule out the possibility early on. As a young telephone repairman I sometimes overlooked the blatantly simple possibilities only to realize a couple hours later that I should have ruled out the simple things.

I suggest you contact Tormek support in Sweden. (support.tormek.se) They return from vacation on the fourth. Support has a lot of experience dealing with these issues. They may also be able to put you in touch with a more local Tormek demonstrator/instructor who could work with you.

Do continue to keep us posted.

Ken

[dgbingham]

Thanks for the inputs.  I expect that you are correct and that I need input from the guys who designed this system.  I have not received the new grader yet.  I also ordered a new stone and I had already ordered the black stone before I encountered this problem.  I am going to try the new stone and grader and maybe i won't need to contact Tormek directly.   If this was a normal occurrence I am sure lots of users would have seen it.

[Ken S]

Do keep us posted, Donald. I will be especially in your observations on the

blackstone.

Ken

[grepper]

Tilt the stone grader and use the edges.  Both the ends and along the sides.  It actually works better than using the flat part of the grader.

[SharpenADullWitt]

I do remember people talking about the stone grader getting dished.  Several of the discussions, link back to this:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=130.0

[dgbingham]

I saw that.  I assumed the grader would wear and become concave so I consciously kept it moving so it would wear evenly.  What I never expected was that it would wear so quickly and that it would get a deep oval shaped dish in the center.  With this wear pattern it does not work  to grade the stone to 1000 grit.  Instead the center of the grindstone stays course in the center and fine on the sides.   I have to assume I have a bad grind stone although it is still 9.75" in diameter.  If the center of the grindstone is harder than the sides maybe that could cause the problem I am seeing.  I also upgraded to the stainless steel shaft and the new diamond dressing tool and dressed the stone flat before I used it so it is not because the grindstone was domed.  I have had this thing so long I can't remember when I bought it but it was in the 90's.  I bought from Woodcraft in Austin and used to sharpen some chisels and plane irons and some turning tools.  I had always used Arkansas oil stones and I got much sharper tools with the oil stones so I put the Tormek away for a number of years before I tried to use again and got the same results compared to the Shapton stones I was using then.  I had built a slow speed grinder for lathe tools and I got good results with it and it is much faster to use if you don't need jigs and you really don't if you do it enough.  I watched some videos recently and pulled the Tormek out.  It seemed that I may not have been grading the stone to the fine condition long enough.  One of the sales videos said to use the fine side of the grader for about 30 seconds instead of the 15 seconds that my old manual said so I tried that and my flat grader became dished after doing that 3 or 4 times or a total grading time of 1.5 to 2 minutes.  I have a new stone and grader in the mail and I hope I don't see the same results. 

A good many years ago Woodcraft had a japanese waterstone for the Tormek that looks like a King product.  I bought one but never took it out of the box.  Before the grader went bad, I sharpened some old chisels on the Tomek and honed them with the waterstone and got really good results for the first time with the Tormek but after three chisels the machine was no longer any good since I could not get the stone acceptably graded to the fine condition.

My overall impression of the Tormek is that it is probably a good tool for regrinding the edge of tools, especially lathe and carving tools but it is real pain to use since the water trough needs to be emptied and cleaned every time you want use it and the jigs might be useful for beginners but they are a pain to use in my opinion.  I have tried jigs over the last 40 years and found them to be irritating to use.  I learned to sharpen using oil stones but oil and woodwork never seemed to go together.  Water stones got rid of the oil but they needed frequent flattening, not too unlike the Tormek with the regrading.  The flat plate diamond stones seem to me to be the perfect sharpening solution as they are quick, don't require oil and don't need to be dressed.  I will probably use the Tormek regrind tools without the jigs and the diamond stones to sharpen and hone them. In that case I won't have to use the fine side of the stone grader.  I also like the leather honing wheels for carving tools.

[SharpenADullWitt]

A good many years ago Woodcraft had a japanese waterstone for the Tormek that looks like a King product.  I bought one but never took it out of the box.  Before the grader went bad, I sharpened some old chisels on the Tomek and honed them with the waterstone and got really good results for the first time with the Tormek but after three chisels the machine was no longer any good since I could not get the stone acceptably graded to the fine condition.

Not sure what you mean about getting the stone graded in the above.  The King stones, that I am aware of for them, were NOT multi grade (couldn't change the grit).

[dgbingham]

The stone I was referring to when I said I cold not get it graded was the standard Tormek stone.  What I was saying was that before the stone grader became unusable I was able to finally get a good edge using the 220 grit Tormek, 1000 grit Tormek, and 4000 grit water stone.  I had never gotten an acceptable (to me) edge using the Tormek before.    My stone grader is not usable and I could not lap the dish out of it.

[Ken S]

Donald,

Do not get discouraged. You are obviously an experienced sharpener. You will have a new stone grader and grinding wheel. This is not unlike telephone repair. If we switch a part, the trouble will either follow or clear. If the trouble clears, the problem was related to the original part. If the trouble follows, keep looking.

In any case, keep posting. Let us know if you isolate the trouble or if it keep occurring. I would urge you to contact support in Sweden. I do not believe there is a major problem with either the SG-250 or the stone grader. However, we have had enough posts to indicate that there is an information problem. I hope Sweden will make a more in depth you tube dedicated to using the stone grader.

Keep us in the loop.

Ken 

[dgbingham]

I have received new SB-250, SG-250, LA-220, and SP-650.  I installed the SB-650 and LA-220 on the machine and used them to regrind and hone most of my lathe tools.  What I learned follows.

I did not see much difference between the SB-250 and and the SG-250.  They both seem to be quite soft and wear extremely fast when grinding gouges and other narrow tools.  Almost all of my lathe tools are HSS and I used light to moderate pressure on them but even with light pressure they developed grooves very quickly and before I could grade the stone to 1000 grit I had to resurface it to get a uniform surface on the stone.  The stones also cut extremely slow.  I also found that the new stone grader already shows wear so it will not last long.  I wish this site had been around in the early days of this machine because the instructions for preparation of the leather honing wheel were too vague and I over oiled it and that was the reason for my disappointment with the performance of the machine.  I used little oil on the new wheel and finally after 25 years or so got a razor sharp edge.  If I followed the Tormek instructions the new wheel would not work either.  Maybe it is the translation between Swedish and English but "impregnate with oil" means get the leather full of oil and that is exactly what you should not do.

I used to spend a couple of minutes on a slow speed grinder to sharpen a turning gouge and a couple of minutes longer to reshape one.  It took 15 to 30 minutes to reshape a gouge on this machine depending on the size of the tool and how much shaping had to be done.  The stone had to be resurfaced quite a few times.  I have much sharper gouges now but I expect that the razor sharp edges are much more fragile and will not last abut a few seconds before they are no more sharp than a tool straight from a grinder.  The sharper tools are nice for small work though.  It took a very long time to surface both sides of a large HSS skew chisel.

My conclusion is that this expensive system is not very efficient both in terms of time and money.   My machine finally creates a sharp edge but the instructions are still too vague and only say to impregnate the honing wheel with oil before use which will make it not work period.   It would seem that after this many years someone would see fit to correct the instructions unless they are hoping the purchaser will ruin their new wheel and have to buy another.   If I knew what I do now I would not buy this system. 

[jeffs55]

This system is more of a "jack of all trades and master of none type". It does better on knife type edges where the wear is spread over most of the surface of the stone. This mitigates the worn grooves that you got. Still, in a pinch, it is almost "universal" in its ability to sharpen nearly anything. Can any one thing be the best at all things? The honing wheel problem with oil saturation is another constant topic on the forum. I agree with you that "impregnate" is the wrong word to describe how much to oil the honing wheel. A better one would be "moisten". Good luck.

[Ken S]

Donald,

You are certainly having more than your fair share of frustrations using your Tormek. In my opinion, what you need is to work with an experience Tormek user/ turner. The kind of trouble you are describing is rarely seen on the forum, especially from longtime owners.

Have you contacted support in Sweden? I think you need some specialized help. Perhaps Sweden could arrange for one of the demonstrators in your country to work with you. (support.tormek.se)

Ken