Carving knives

[bobl]

Hi,
Its Bob The Knife Grinder again.
Just got through sharpening 22 carving knives with my T7. 3rd time doing these knives with the T7. I have now got them to a stage where I am able to successfully achieve the thumb nail test and paper cut test. I think I have eventually ARRIVED.
Never had a problem getting utility knives to the Thumb Nail Test with the T7, however have had to perceiver with carving knives.
Tonight I got there. It even passed the shaving hair off my arm test.
So if there are any of you out there that are not quite happy with your results, PLEASE PLEASE, keep trying, keep adjusting and experimenting and it will come.
Better still, find yourself a place that teaches you how to use a Tormek. They are out there. I should have gone to the one in U.K. in Bath I think it is. I will get down there one day, but I am doing this back to front dont you think. I would recommend you go to the school first, then get the experience as opposed to the reverse way I have done it.
Happy Sharpening.
Bob The Knife Grinder.   

[Elden]

Bob,
   Congratulations! Just think of all the fun you would have missed if you would have taken the shortcut route! Now a class will help firm it up for you.

[bobl]

good one.
Cheers

[Ken S]

Bob,

I am a great believer in really good training. In my opinion, one should get the training first and then the tools.

In my telephone career, once in a great while I was able to attend a class in which I had already had some field experience. Those classes were really exciting. I was able to put some polish on my skills instead of having to work at keeping my head above water in a new subject.

My recommendation for you to look into studying with Robin Bailey in Bath still holds.

Keep up the good work.

Ken

[Elden]

   Actually I agree with Ken. Several years ago, I took a 5 day training session through Foley Belsaw on sharpening. It was money well spent. I have one of their training videos as well. The video is excellent but it is a little difficult to ask that instructor a question. Professionally done videos usually have a lot of research and thought put into them. Consequently, most questions will be answered.

   If a person has no experience when taking a class, he doesn't have any bad habits to break.  The flip side of the coin is, one who has worked with the machinery probably is going to be more relaxed and able to to take in the intricacies easier.

[Herman Trivilino]

Videos are no substitute for human interaction. Neither is web-based learning, however well the software is designed. Training places you in contact with a trainer. Someone who can watch what you do and tell you how to correct it or improve upon it.

Videos and web-based learning are great tools that can augment training, but they cannot replace it.

[SharpenADullWitt]

Training, training, training...............

Part of the reason I didn't get a new Tormek, verses used, was training.  I went to my local Woodcraft because they were going to have a training session/course on the Tormek.  I went specifically for that, and they turned it into a bench stone training session and pushed their supply of bench stones (completely ignoring the Tormek).  I didn't feel like buying new was worthwhile, if I didn't like or feel comfortable with it and has to lose money on a new tool that the warranty wouldn't transfer.  Used made more sense especially at the price I found mine.
The only time I saw Jeff, was my first attended woodworking show, in 2004, and after that he moved out of the area.

[Rob]

Personally I'm a convert to all forms of learning.  I agree classroom based tuition is No 1 for direct feedback but in a group setting it can also be quite stressful as you're required to stick your neck out in public whereas self paced learning avoids that.

My personal preference with difficult skills like rolling beads with a skew or cutting curves with a skew (in fact pretty much anything with a skew) is to watch a well made video of a professional. Try it for real over many hours.  Then take my mishaps and problem areas to a tutor one on one.  So I get direction from the pro's and apply the practical and the practice for the muscle memory.  Then I correct the errors live.  I find if I get the tutor first, I don't have enough skill to perform the task and just feel like a pratt.

[Elden]

   Well said, Rob.

[Ken S]

This is a fascinating topic. My ideal answer would be, "D; all of the above.".

We occasionally get questions about sharpening salon shears. i don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that some of these may be from new owner/users who purchase the Tormek hoping it is a low cost way into this field. This kind of user definitely would be better served by attending a class before purchasing anything. There seems to be an underlying prejudice against paying for learning instead of paying for more tools.

There is no doubt in my mind that anyone planning to open a sharpening business should first receive proper training, before investing in tools. The world already has too many "businesses" where the owner is still learning the basics on the job, without much clue of the work. Herman's example of the guy who hired "teenagers" to sharpen, and who apparently "overlooked" Herman's knife illustrates this point.

In some ways we were much better served by the old medieval guild system of apprentices and masters. At least we had training.

Early access to a master can make a hyper difference in one's skill level.

In 1980 and 1981 I had the opportunity to study with photographer, Fred Picker. Fred was an outstanding teacher. The printing session with him was priceless. He later recorded a professional quality VHS of his darkroom demo. I have enjoyed it very much. Fred has since died. Watching his video brings me back to his darkroom. I do not consider the VHS a substitute for having studied with Fred. However, I also do not consider it lesser. The VHS does not have the actual human interaction. It does present the information very well, and has the advantage of being able to be watched repeatedly.

For someone who lived on a sheep station in Australia, online or video learning might be the only practical option of study.

I recently watched a short you tube of Leonard lecturing about the history of western musical harmony at Harvard. It was absolutely top drawer. As Bernstein is deceased, a live class is not an option.

Over the years, I took classes from Vermont to California. I never regretted this, and have benefitted immeasurably. Meeting the teachers was a pleasure in itself.

I have also benefitted from online and DVD classes. A potential side benefit of the DVD classes is that they can be taught by outstanding teachers.

Rob, there seem to be several outstanding British turners. It would be pricey, but individual tutoring with such a master would be the cat's meow.

I am looking forward to viewing Steve's DVD next month.

Bob, it is never too late to learn. I would study with Robin Bailey before buying more gadgets.  (I know, I am repeating myself, but the repetition is intentionsal ).

Ken