"bargain Tormek"

[Ken S]

I occasionally follow the tormek listings on the large online auction site. One caught my eye today. It is for a Tormek T3, still in the box. The seller seems to specialize in industrial surplus. I suspect this Tormek was someone's surplus. Since the seller does not appear to be a Tormek specialist, I won't fault him.

The T3 is essentially no longer available new. It has been replaced by the much improved T4. The T3 sold between three and four hundred US dollars, (generally with free shipping) depending on what all was included. This seller is asking $550 US "or best offer" plus around sixteen dollars shipping. No mention is made of whether the warranty is available with this unit. For approximately one hundred dollars more, one can purchase a brand new warranted T7 from an authorized dealer. The same five hundred fifty dollars would buy a nicely equipped basic T4.

I suspect some unsuspecting person will think they got a bargain with a best offer of $500.

I have no problem with someone looking for a bargain in a used or like new Tormek. Such bargains are very occasionally available. However, most of what I see online is more expensive than purchasing the same item new with warranty from an authorized dealer. Just look at the price of Tormek honing compound. It can be purchased any day of the week from a dealer for $10 US. If one waits until the dealer has a woodworking show, that tube of honing compound may be eight or nine dollars.

My advice is even if you are looking for a used bargain, check to see what the item costs when purchased at a dealer. For further study, read Jeff Farris' blog at sharptoolsusa.com.

Ken

[jeffs55]

You may be right about thinking someone biting at $500 and thinking that they got a bargain but I doubt it. The reason is that a Tormek is in a niche market where people know what it is for and how much it costs. They almost certainly know where it is sold and at what cost. If you own a Tormek or want to own a Tormek it is for a narrow set of reasons that almost demand at least a modicum of common sense and knowledge. I hope that I am right. I snagged a sort of good deal on eBarf on a used Supergrind. I did not steal it by any means but new what I was buying going in.

[Ken S]

Jeff, I hope you are right. However, the overwhelming majority of Tormek listings seem to be for new equipment quite often priced higher than when purchased through an authorized dealer. The honing compound listings are typical.

I am not opposed to buying on the used market. I do it, too. You have been a part of this forum long enough to be saavy about Tormek prices. I wrote the post for the benefit of those who are not so saavy. Some of the deals I have seen are: older Tormeks with visibly rusted shafts; older versions of jigs and accessories, when the newer versions are really much improved; a very worn grinding wheel, unusable with any Tormek and, with its 12mm shaft opening, not usable with other grinders.

An old Tormek hand might make do with these limitations. A new hand would probably get discouraged. A new user needs everything possible going for him. I realize the new user is often someone with a limited budget. In my opinion, having used both the T7 and the T4, a "good deal" on an older Supergrind would have to be both a unit in very good condition and priced well below the price of a new T4. With all its original parts and accessories and a shaft and grinding wheel in good condition, $250 US seems a fair price, a little more if more jigs are included.For $200 I would be tempted to purchase a second unit for the  SJ 250 4000 grit wheel.

In my opinion, most of the used market is priced too high to be a cost effective alternative to purchasing a new unit from an authorized dealer with full warranty and all the latest improvements.

Ken

[Rob]

agreed

[Herman Trivilino]

I think the shopper of used Tormeks should look for machines that come with a collection of the jigs he needs. This takes some knowledge and a good deal of research for someone who's never owned a Tormek. A good way to save money on a used Tormek is get one that still has a lot of grindstone left, and appears to be clean and well taken care of.

One should not pay top dollar for a used machine. Half price or less, unless the buyer is really familiar with the Tormek, has used one before, and knows how to inspect them for things like a stainless steel shaft. Even then, a motor that fails because it has been abused is an expensive replacement and could offset all of your savings.

I have the advantage of living in a large metropolitan area, so I can buy and sell used items on craigslist. That way I get to meet face-to-face with sellers, can ask them questions, and really get a good sense of the item's history. Of course, anyone can be fooled by a seller, so it takes a bit of skill in judging character and credibility. Sometimes it back fires.

[Rob]

I've probably bought about 6 fairly big lumps of machine type tool 2nd hand in my time and only one turned out to be a duck and even that was damaged in transit.  That turned into a bit of a 9 month nightmare trying to get the money back but succeeded in the end.  The other items (chopsaw, drill press, mortiser, linisher, dry grinder and lathe) have been really good.  The lathe is an absolute bargain in fact.  I did get to see all of them up close and personal before buying, except the sander that broke in transit ironically.

On balance I would say I am quite the convert to 2nd hand in recent years when I think about it.  New purchases have been bandsaw, planar/thicknesser and tablesaw.  I would buy a table saw 2nd hand but not so sure about a P/T without considerable testing of the flatness of the beds.  I would be a little nervous about a 2nd hand bandsaw too

[Ken S]

Rob, your post reminds me of the online reviews for a benchtop mortiser. The reviews were split between one star and five. The one star reviewers all had opted for the free shipping. The tool had arrived broken. How dunb is this?

If I was buying a bandsaw in the US, I would forego the new saws in favor of an old Delta in good condition. Whether new or used, a bandsaw requires some expertise to properly set up and tune. I was fortunate enough many years ago to study with Mark Duginske, one of the real bandsaw experts. I learned how to set up a bandsaw. Today, a new bandsaw user can purchase or obtain from the library Mark's excellent video on mastering the bandsaw. I recommend Mark's video and book highly.

By chance I found what would be an excellent candidate for a good half priced Tormek last Friday. This was a complete Latest model T7 with original accessories. It appeared to be in working order, however, it looked really cruddy. The two support bars were straight, but really needed a very thorough cleaning. The grinding wheel was almost full diameter, but needed to be trued and refreshed. The power cord looked like it had been replaced with a smaller wire gage cord. The water trough looked like it had been "rode hard and put away wet". I suspect a thorough cleaning would have brought this old trooper back to apple pie order.

In hindsight, I wish I had made a bid for it. At half price, it would have been a genuine bargain. However, I don't think the dealer would have wanted to sell the store demo unit.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

If your buying second hand, buy local!  I've read a few stories that make me wonder, as some seem to ship it with the stone attached, which seems like a good way to damage something.
Bargains can be had (picked up mine with the turners kit for under $200), but they can be overpriced as well (seen an older square frame model on CL locally for $500), and you will have to judge condition as well as what you need to bring it up to your happy place.  (for me it was the hand tool kit, although I had a few jigs already, the new shaft, water tray, Turning setter and dvd.

[Ken S]

I don't mean to sound like a Tormek cheerleader, however, most of the items I have seen for sale online are either priced over standard dealer prices, outdated, in bad condition or all of the above. I believe a new buyer would be much better served by purchasing new from an authorized dealer and getting a proper warranty. The learning curve is easier if everything works. SADW, your purchase was exceptional and, unfortunately, rare.

Don't think one has to have the kit or magnum options to get started. As with most "kits", they contain some often used items and some hardly used items. I plan ahead and have purchased almost my jigs when my local dealer had twenty percent storewide sales.  I do have a long knife jig, which I have hardly, if ever used. All my kitchen knives work fine with the standard knife jig. (Your knives may be different.) Also, I do not own the ax jig. I also do not own an ax.

Start with what you really need and a new unit. The T4 is a solid performer. You will not outgrow it.

Ken

[Ken S]

In fairness, I did make a Tormek purchase this week on ebay. I have been wanting an XB-100 (add on horizontal base) for an experiment. My favorite local dealer did not have it in stock. I found several on eBay. Two of the listings were for $27 USD, the standard list price. Woodcraft added shipping costs; Rockler shipped for free. Both are reputable outfits. I bought it for Rockler's free shipping.

Caveat emptor.

Ken

[Timberwright]

Ken,

I'm having trouble understanding what the XB-100 Horizontal Base is used for. 

As I understand it, there's one (standard) base on the T-7 for use with the stone and one
(standard) base for use with the leather honing wheel.  This is what came on the used T-7
I purchased and -- from what I can see -- appear the same as the Tormek T-7 photos.

Does the XB-100 replace one of the standard bases? 

I notice that the XB-100 is not listed in the "accessories" section of the Tormek website, either.
Please educate me about this item.  As I mentioned before, I'm going to be ordering items
from Tormek soon, so the more I know about the benefits of accessories the better.

Thanks for your time

[SharpenADullWitt]

If you have the T7 and not a 2000 (green) model, you already have the XB on your unit.  The XB has two functions;  One is as a replacement, for those green 2000 models that had one knob (some people felt it wasn't sufficient and the bar might move), the other is to give a mount point to use the Tormek bar, with a bench grinder, so you have remove more material, quickly, for initial shaping on a turning tool (store bought, or home made/specialty).

[Ken S]

SaDW is correct. Remove the XB from your want list. Such spare parts are only for tinkerers like me. In fact, I believe the shorter your want list and the less time you spend on that list, the more quickly you will become able with your Tormek. To the chisels!

Ken

[Jimmy R Jørgensen]

If you don't research just a little bit before you buy stuff i say you the only one to blame.. So if people buy a T3 and spend like 200$ above selling price so be it.

[Ken S]

Jimmy, the T3 at that price is an easy example. More complicated examples are inadvertently purchasing older jigs and grinding wheels worn too much to be useful. I have come to the conclusion that a beginner, and most of us, are better off dealing with an authorized dealer. The risk often outweighs the reward to do otherwise.

Ken