Spokeshave Challenge

[Rob]

Nice work Robin....really professional.

NB

I too have some concerns about Photobucket...not least of which are the unsavoury adverts it seems to run!

[ShermanPayne]

I have never mastered the spokeshave, and as I am currently making a child's rocking chair with various curved lines, I am now determined to get on top of this tool.

Staying with one model in particular, a Stanley No63 (of many years vintage) which has a curved base. I could not get it to give a decent cut on any hardwood. So to get up the learning curve, I picked a nice piece of mahogany, 22mm, wide as the grain is very uniform.

I thought the mouth too wide which was causing a lot of chatter and rough cutting. So I put a plastic shim behind the blade and this helped a lot. However the cuts were not uniform across the wood, and this was due to the blade not being parallel to the top of the mouth.  I realised that although the top and bottom edges of the mouth appeared parallel, the face on which the led lighting fits (like the frog in a plane) is not parallel to the top of the mouth, causing the blade to sit squint to the top of the mouth. This is an original casting issue.

I then used a piece of thick paper behind one side of the shim and this made the blade sit parallel to the top of the mouth, and I was then getting some nice full width shavings from the mahogany.

So I am now left with how to sharpen the blade. I have previously done it on Japanese wet stones but this is a pain due to the small side of the blade, and so I am looking for advice on how to sharpen the blade on my Tormek.

The blade is 1³/₄" (45mm) wide 1³/₈" (35mm) from to back, and ¹/₁₆" (~2mm) thick, so the SE76 won't look at it.

I haven't tried it yet, but I doubt the SVD 110 is the answer as the small blade means it would be finger pressure down on to the SVD110 as the only means of holding the blade, and I doubt if this would give accuracy across the blade.

Also what angle to grind? At the moment it is 25 degrees, but if I increase this to 30 degrees this may also reduce the chatter.

So suggestions welcome.

Were you able to get top of the tool.. Even I have failed many a times so if you can help I will be able to make a good tool.. Please reply.. Thanks

[RobinW]

Good morning Sherman

Yes I did get on top of that original spokeshave and also a few others (metal and wood framed). When I originally posted I was having a hard time on some mahogany, coupled with lack of practice, sharpness (or lack) of the blade, and setting the spokeshave up.

You will see in the rest of this post, and another under the heading 'Another Spokeshave Challenge' I have spent a fair amount of time with different blades and coming up with jigs so that (if possible) I can sharpen them on the Tormek.

It was the rockers for the child's rocking chair that started this off, and the picture below shows the finished chair, delivered to my granddaughter yesterday on her birthday.



The first thing about using a spokeshave is to get the blade really sharp, just like a plane. I haven't bothered with micro-bevels, just 25 degree single bevel (or near enough).

I have also polished up the base (rubbing surface) of the spokeshaves. If it has a curved base, make sure it is consistent across the width of the tool.

Then I like to get the blade set so that it has a narrow opening in the mouth. The only one I've had to shim so that the blade is parallel to the front edge of the mouth was the original one in this post. The other tools haven't needed shimming. Also I use a small blade projection as it is easier to feel and control, otherwise I find that tearout and chatter are easily created. I would also rather take say 20 - 30 light strokes and have a nice surface than 4 - 5 strokes with tearout and spend longer trying to recover the situation.

There is also a knack in getting the angle right between the face of the tool and the wood being shaved. This is where the old adage practice, practice, practice comes in. I find that if I start off (whether pulling or pushing the tool) so that there is no shaving, and then gently roll the angle of the tool so that it just starts to cut, and try to maintain that angle and feel of the tool. At the end of the stroke it sometimes helps in just rolling the tool slightly so that it is taking less bite to finish off the stroke. It's a bit difficult to get this into text rather than a hands-on demo. It's like when I start to use a plane. I start off with the blade back so that it is probably not cutting at all. Then turn the adjuster knob  each stroke until it starts to cut, and keep doing that until I get the amount of cut that I'm comfortable with.

I started off spokeshaving the wrong way - jumped in the deep end. I didn't have the blade sharp enough; probably not set right and insufficient practice. I was trying to get on with the job as I originally posted. This involved some old mahogany which I'd got my hands on. I know this was fitted into an office over 40 years ago (desk top, shelves, drawer fronts) and it was pretty hard! The desk top sections were about 3 feet wide boards, so it was one hell of a tree in its day.

So I would suggest that you start off use a softer piece of wood, (preferably straight grained or no knots). Start on the corner of the the wood, and shave the corner at 45 degrees and keep doing that. Get the feel of things. Then round the corner off. Get different radii over the corner. Change the corner shape. When you've got that under control, then move to a flat surface say 3/4 to 1 inch wide and try getting that flat. Then you should have the feel of things. Try different types of wood. I found that the responses from different types of wood very noticeable.

Like planing, go with the grain. If it is a curved surface go down hill. On some curves you may end up coming in from both sides. I know this sounds contradictory about going with the grain, but it will tear out if you are going up a curve into end grain (depending on steepness of the curve). For concave curves, you would be better using a curved sole spokeshave rather than a flat based tool, so it can follow the arc of the curve better.

It should all be done with a nice light touch. Stroke it, don't force it. Hope this helps.

[Rob]

good advice there Robin.  Nice chair too :-)

[mike40]

Great jig improvement Robin! I have some 6mm steel plate from another project. I might just make a plate like that in due course. Thanks very much for the nice plan drawing.

[MakerUnknown]

Very nice overall post.  Thanks and nice looking jig.

[mike40]

Nice rocker Robin. I'll bet your great grandchildren will be also be using it one day.

[RobinW]

My granddaughter got it Tuesday on her 4th birthday, sat in it, rocked away and said she was now a granny!

A short while later, her younger brother of 10 months, climbed in to it, stood up facing the back, had great fun rocking it while standing, and then decided he would sit down facing the same direction. He was caught in mid-air by his other Granny!

As this post started of about spokeshave issues, I was reading in the latest Furniture and Cabinet Making Magazine, an article about Holland Holland a famous London gun manufacturer. (Fantastic craftsmanship.) The thrust of the article was about making the wooden stocks, and the following was stated - "As with cabinetmaking, older tools are considered better quality and wooden spokeshaves are given preference over metal."

As I have now restored a couple of these wooden spokeshaves (and some metal ones) and got the blades sharpened up on the T7, I can understand why the gunmakers like the wooden versions. They have a feel about them when you get them right. The metal one I have a also good, but there is something indefinable about the wooden ones.

[mike40]

I can see that Robin. Perhaps it's the much lighter weight and the feel of the wood. I have never used a wooden one, or even seen one except for photos, but they also seem to have a much lower profile and not as wide as a steel one either. I would think tighter inside curves would be possible with the wooden one for that reason. Just a thought.

[dwfree]

I use spokeshaves some. Your struggles with the curved bottom type are common. Congrats on figuring out how to make it cut. Many give up thinking it's the tool. That is also a very nice custom jig for the short blades. For others that don't have the custom jig - I tape the short shave blades (and some of my small plane blades) to a 2" Stanley plane blade and use the square jig to hold. Any long flat piece of steel will work. I use masking tape wrapped around the holder and blade.

[Johan_E]

Let's see if my latest wrestling match with Photobucket works!



It is some years since I did a detailed mechanical drawing for machining purposes, and I have forgotten how to specify tolerances, perpendicular items, and surface finishes, hence the novel tolerance specification note! if I have it right it's drawn in Third Angle.

The plate Bob made for me is 6mm thick which is more than adequate.

Here is my version of this useful jigg. Thanks for the detailed mechanical drawing.

[RobinW]

Hi Johan - Great to see that someone has made good use of my drawing and another jig in operation.

May I suggest that you clean, flatten and polish the back of the blade before sharpening the bevel. Use your jig to hold the blade and flatten the back on a waterstone (or other method you may prefer). Using the jig helps preserve the ends of your fingers and also reduces the stress on finger joints!

There is information elsewhere in the Forum about polishing backs and bevels, the effects and benefits of having highly polished surfaces meeting at the cutting edge. I think it was Herman who posted photographs taken through a x40 magnifier.

[Ken S]

A few thoughts:

Regarding the preference for older, wooden spokeshaves, I don't disagree. The quality of garden variety tools in recent decades is certainly less than stellar. (I am being kind.) The quality  of top drawer tools, like Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or small manufacturers, can be superb. My metal spokeshaves are century old Stanleys; I would put the quality of today's top tools against them any day.

The main difference between wooden and metal spokeshaves is the location of the bevel. Just like top and bottom bevel planes, most metal spokes are bottom bevel tools. Wooden spokeshaves are top bevel. The cutting angles are different. My theory is that metal spokeshaves reflected the design of metal planes of the time.

Ron Hock and Lee Valley sell thicker replacement blades, which should reduce chatter. Lee Valley also makes some interesting spokeshaves, including a metal low angle spokeshave.

Stig showed me how the new SE-77 square edge jig can hold spokeshave blades. The holding surfaces have been redesigned.

Robin, your jig design is very clever. Kudos. I have long thought some of the Tormek jigs could be more versatile. A replacement for the adjustable stop which prevented the knife jig from pivoting would be very useful.

Before power tools, tools like spokeshaves would have been in more regular use. If we can combine the wisdom of the old craftsmen with today's best in toolmaking, I think we will have the best of both worlds.

Very interesting topic.

Ken

[Waterstone]

Great to see that someone has made good use of my drawing and another jig in operation.

Hi Robin,

many congrats on your well designed jig! It's a pretty good solution for short spokeshave blades, clearly to spot.
My question: I own 2 Millers Falls cigar shaves that I love. They can plane narrow curves better than all other spokeshaves that I came across so far. The hard thing is the sharpening however. The blades are narrow curved and hard to clamp into any Tormek jig that I know. Actually I get them more or less sharp by handsharpening them on waterstones or on other flat sharpening media. I'd love to find a way to sharpen them on the Tormek. Any ideas?

Klaus

[Waterstone]

Should have added these pics in the previous post already.





Klaus