A suggestion for the knife angle people:

[Ken S]

I have a suggestion for those curious about the effects of various knife angles:  Purchase two Forscher chef's knives.  Those are the ones recommended by Jeff as holding up well during his demos and being reasonably priced.

Sharped each carefully on your Tormek using either the Tormek of forum knife jig, your choice.  UUSe the same jig for both knives.  Sharpen one at the recommended twenty degrees for each bevel (total angle forty degrees). Sharpen the second knife at fifteen degrees for each bevel (total angle thirty degrees).

Use these two knives in your day to day cooking. Try to give each knife half of each task, as equally as possible.

This exercise will tell you at least two things: 1) Which knife angle seems to cut more easily and 2) which angle wil retain its sharpness longer.

Both are valuable parts of educating a sharpener.  The same exercise would be equally valuable with a chisel.

Ken

[Elden]

Ken, are you referring to the forged or stamped version?

[Elden]

I found this interesting in regard to the forged versus stamped debate.

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/66981/need-help-to-decide-which-victorinox-forschner-knives-to-buy

[Ken S]

The only knives I have used for the past twenty three years are a set of Henckel five star knives.  I found this interesting from Elden's post:

" I know how to hone, but not how to sharpen.  I've been reading the board all morning and I know you guys frown upon knife sets, but I can't help it, that's what I want.  This will be in a contemporary home, so while obviously function of the knives is most important, decor is as well.  My present set is a forged set of JA Henkels that I got from Costco as a housewarming present (not the same as, but comparable to the set they have on their website now for ~$200).  I feel I'm outgrowing these knives and desire something better. "

I cannot honestly speak about the guy's set of Henckel knives.  I know Henckel makes several grades of knives.  My set (as I remember) came with 8" chef's;  6" slicing; 4" paring; and a steel.  It may have included the 8" bread knife and/or the boning knife.  My memory is fuzzy.  I added a second paring knife and an 8" slicer, both of which see occasional use.  The basic knives see daily use.

Stamped of forged?  Mine are forged, and I have no experience with stamped.  Hopefully others have and can chime it.  I do like the added weight of the forged chef's knife.  I use it for even small work like chopping nuts.  The extra heft and gravity seem to make the job go easier.

I have two issues with the quoted person:  Unless he bought a really junky grade of Henckel knives, I cannot imagine "outgrowing them"  And, changing knives to fit the decor?.......... not this old Yankee.

So, stamped or forged? I would say whichever you plan to use.  The exercise is to become familiar with the cutting and edge retention of different edge angles with whatever knives you use.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I'm very happy with the relatively inexpensive stamped Victorinox knife that I purchased recently.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008M5U1C2/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


By the way, does anybody know what this phrase in the product description means?

"Blade is conical ground lengthwise and crosswise [...]"

[Ken S]

Herman, I suspect we all get comfortable with whatever we happen to have. ( At  least those of us wise enough not to be on a continual buying quest.)

I don't think it matters whether a knife is stamped or forged if it works for us.  My post was to encourage people to learn about different bevel angles, not different knives.  Maybe the question of stamped versus forged would be an interesting thesis topic.

By the way, do we list our new Hero status before or after our non Tormek academic credentials?

Ken

[Rob]

I have a suggestion for those curious about the effects of various knife angles:  Purchase two Forscher chef's knives.  Those are the ones recommended by Jeff as holding up well during his demos and being reasonably priced.

Sharped each carefully on your Tormek using either the Tormek of forum knife jig, your choice.  UUSe the same jig for both knives.  Sharpen one at the recommended twenty degrees for each bevel (total angle forty degrees). Sharpen the second knife at fifteen degrees for each bevel (total angle thirty degrees).

Use these two knives in your day to day cooking. Try to give each knife half of each task, as equally as possible.

This exercise will tell you at least two things: 1) Which knife angle seems to cut more easily and 2) which angle wil retain its sharpness longer.

Both are valuable parts of educating a sharpener.  The same exercise would be equally valuable with a chisel.

Ken

A nice experiment Ken but you yourself frequently cite Leonard Lee as someone who "deserves" respect due to his credibility in the industry.  He has clearly stated in his book which knife bevel suits which purpose.  I fail to understand why we should go to such lengths to second guess his recommendations?  Can we not just agree that on balance, he's right....lets just speed up time and do what he says.....regardless of the knife brand you own?

This may be over simplifying things but I'm advocating a practical approach for anyone suffering the plethora of ambiguity with respect to knife sharpening

[Ken S]

I agree, Rob.  Personally, I like things simple.  And, yes, I certainly hold Leonard Lee in high regard.

I posted the "experiment" with two identical knives for the benefit of those members of the forum who are confused about the effects of different bevel angles.  By using identical knives and trying to equally divide the work, we can include a modicum of scientific discipline to this question.  Worst case scenario, the experimenter would end up with two good and useful knives.

I'm more of a book person.  When I read authors I trust, like Lee, Hock and Lie-Nielsen, I am content to follow the prevailing wisdom.  Occasionally I enjoy thinking outside the box, but generally I go with the flow.

Ken

[grepper]

I think having two identical knives sharpened to different angles is a great idea.  I think it would be cool to chop a carrot with one and then the other enough times to really understand the subtle differences.  Then onions!  How 'bout a potato?  Spinach?  Oooooh... A over ripe tomato!!!  Maybe a Delmonte Golden Wax Beans can!!! (I mean the can itself).

Seriously, I'd like to do that.  I'd like to know the _exact_ difference between 10, 15 and 20 degrees. I'm not kidding.   I'm sure I could probably, (notice I said "sure" and "probably" in the same sentence), feel a 10 degree difference.  But I've found that 20 degrees for kitchen knives seems to work good enough, I don't have to think about it, and holds up well. However I could seriously be missing out on the exquisiteness of a fine 15 degree bevel!

The only problem is that I spend so much time posting to a place called the Tormek Discussion Forum, I don't have time for anything else in my life.

[Rob]

I always sharpened my knives at 20 before I got a set of global knives just before Christmas. The global knives are at 15(included) ie 7.5 per bevel....really acute

They're the sharpest knives I've ever used in my life

Now maybe that's because they're also the best quality I've ever had too ie despite the low angle, they were just brilliantly sharpened. Not sure though....they had a quality of sharpness that was remarkable.

You know when you've chopped veg quite fine with a chefs knife then you scoop the slices up with the side of the blade to place them in the pan?  Well this blade was so sharp it kept catching on the wooden chopping board and lifting the wood fibres!  I've never had that happen before. This is a solid beech board, really hard and really flat, it was acting like a plane iron!

So, in the pursuit of perfection the experiment would have some merit, but....for practical purposes....Mr Lee seems to know his onions!  Sliced or otherwise. And, Fanny is his Aunt after all

[Herman Trivilino]

Seriously, I'd like to do that.  I'd like to know the _exact_ difference between 10, 15 and 20 degrees. I'm not kidding.   I'm sure I could probably, (notice I said "sure" and "probably" in the same sentence), feel a 10 degree difference.  But I've found that 20 degrees for kitchen knives seems to work good enough, I don't have to think about it, and holds up well. However I could seriously be missing out on the exquisiteness of a fine 15 degree bevel!

I feel the same way, Mark.  I think it'd be a good experience.

[grepper]

And I would like to collect all of my tools, clean and organize them, same with my shop.  Garages can use some work.  I'd like to do the same with all my paperwork.  I'd like to learn piro flips with rc helicopters, and then there is maintenance to do on the lawn tractor, mower, blower, trimmers etc.  Gotta squeeze in the new vanity, kitchen sink. And work full time.  Gotta upgrade the wife's computer and stick an SSD drive and Windows 7 on the thing.  That should be a hair pulling freak show and kill off a day.  It would be very cool to appreciate different bevel angles on kitchen knives.  Gotta...

Make a version of the I/H jig.  I have the aluminum...

[Rob]

Yes, too few hours per day is a big problem for me too