I'm really not getting the hang of honing

[Mike Fairleigh]

On my high-end WW tools, my sharpening routine is:

1. Flatten backs using 3M Stickit rolls of 80-220 grit on a granite slab.

2. Polish backs up through 8,000 grit on Shapton Glasstones.

3. Re-grind the bevel on the Tormek; since virtually all of my blades are A2, I sharpen at 30 degrees.

4. Polish the bevel on 1,000 grit, then 8,000 grit Glasstones.

At the end of that process, assuming I took my time and didn't rush through or past a step (I just spent nearly 3 hours flattening the back of the iron in a new Lie-Nielsen 51), I have an incredibly sharp blade with a gorgeous bevel.  However, I don't doubt that a proper leather stropping would improve it - and that's where I have a problem.  If I take said blade and strop on the Tormek, the edge becomes worse, not better.  I've tried very light pressure; rather heavy pressure; making contact at the heel of the bevel and then raising up slowly so that the edge is just kissed by the leather - it doesn't seem to matter, I end up with some degree of dubbing no matter what.  I've seen the same results on every blade I've attempted to strop.  With each attempt, I end up going back to the 8,000 Glasstone to put the edge back where I started.

How do I know I'm dubbing it?  After the Glasstone, the edge reflects no light and cuts thin, loose paper cleanly.  After the honing wheel, the edge reflects light and tears the same paper.

So here's an opportunity for someone to write a new chapter for the Wiki/sticky project - if you're a successful Tormek stropper, what's your secret?  One other note, my honing wheel started out way over-oiled and to some degree still is.  Perhaps the leather is just too yielding to work well because of that?

[Rob]

I'm kind of with you on this Mike

My wheel wasn't over oiled at the start but like you, generally I feel my edges are duller after strop ping than before. Now with turning tools (which really take a beating anyway) I int strop at all

With knives and plane irons which really get the most benefit I never know if Ive made them better or worse. Sometimes they slice paper "Jeff" style, other times they tear it.  Now ironically, on a practical level it doesn't matter because when actually in use they are easily sharp enough, in other words despite not being perhaps " text book sharp"..... They work. 

But like you it would be helpful to have a written procedure which if followed correctly always yielded a great repeatable result

Jeff, in fairness has answered this before which is basically sneak up on the edge to avoid rounding it.  I do this painstakingly carefully now. Still think im doing something wrong though cos its not guaranteed

[Ken S]

I wish I could help you, Mike.  I'm not very good with the honing wheel, either.  Have you tried the finest diamond paste on a wood block?

Wow! A Lie-Nielsen Shoot board plane!  That's a serious tool.  The closest I've come to one is my (unused) old Lion Trimmer.  The 51 seems just the ticket for crisp fitting miters. I can see where you would want that blade (at the very least) razor sharp. Please post your thoughts after using it.

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

USING it!!??  You mean run the risk of scratching it? 

You could say I'm on a lifelong pursuit of blurring the line between collecting and using.  I don't want to own anything I'm afraid to use, but want to keep all my "users" in collectible condition.  It's a hard line to walk.  The 51 will most definitely be used, but not immediately.

My 51 is part of the first run of 100, electro-pencil signed by The Man.  Interestingly, this iron required more flattening time than any other LN iron I own (which is more than a few).  They did their usual quick swipes at LN, but apparently not as many as they usually do.  I had to take it all the way back to 80 grit on granite and work up from there.  It's good now though.      I would have suspected it was just a result of the massive size of the iron, but the iron in my LN #8 was closer to being ready out of the box.

A genuine Lion trimmer would be a thing to behold.  Perfect miters combined with medieval manliness.  A tool that screams, "In your face, lawyers!"  One of those would be on my list if only I had the room for it.

[Jeff Farris]

Mike,

First, if you're using that 8000 grit stone correctly (and it sounds like you are), there's nothing to be gained by using the leather wheel. They're accomplishing almost the same thing. The leather wheel can get to nearly the same point much faster, but the bevel will be straighter and more polished off the bench stone, if you have mastered using the bench stone and devote the time necessary.

As for getting a good working edge off the leather, most folks who aren't getting what they want:

aren't using enough compound (the process should be a little messy)
are bringing the angle up too high
aren't spending enough time on the strop
aren't using very much pressure
or a combination of the above.

[Rob]

As for getting a good working edge off the leather, most folks who aren't getting what they want:

aren't using enough compound (the process should be a little messy)
are bringing the angle up too high
aren't spending enough time on the strop
aren't using very much pressure
or a combination of the above.

Another punchy classic for newbs

[Mike Fairleigh]

Jeff, thanks for replying.  I would think that the chances of dubbing are directly related to the amount of pressure applied.  In other words, the more pressure, the "further around the edge" the leather will "wrap," having a rounding effect.  I'm interested in better understanding this dynamic.  I know a lot of guys strop on hard horse butt leather glued to a flat substrate, and they use a lot of pressure with great success.  I would think they would dub their edges too, but apparently I'm missing something.

[Jeff Farris]

"Rounding" isn't as bad as it seems, it if isn't taken too far. It's sort of like the theory of a micro-bevel. A bit of rounding adds some meat to the edge. Now, if you're getting it to the point that the edge reflects light, you've gone way over the top. Try it instead of going through your bench stones and see if you don't get 95% of the edge quality in 20% of the time involved.

[Ken S]

My gut feeling is that most of us (including me) have not practiced enough with the leather honing wheel to be proficient.  A number of us have become proficient with the 8000 grit water stones.  I believe at this point, we are comparing proficiency with lack of proficiency.  (Note to self: spend some disciplined practice time with the honing wheel.)

Ken 

[RobinW]

I've sometimes had the feeling that after using the honing wheel I was losing sharpness too (chisels/plane blades). I couldn't define or measure just what the difference was, but I was pretty sure they could be better. Sometimes the same plane would feel great and other times just not doing the job (on the same wood). Interesting that others have the same impression. I haven't been very active lately so I have a collection of chisels and plane blades waiting for attention. So I will see how that goes.

I got a lathe at the end of last summer, and after a few months of use, I concluded that the turning tools were better off without honing. For the time they last when turning hardwoods it was easier and quicker to just tickle them up on the stone. Not worth the time to set up and hone, and no noticeable advantage in the performance or time the tool would last.

[Rob]

I've sometimes had the feeling that after using the honing wheel I was losing sharpness too (chisels/plane blades). I couldn't define or measure just what the difference was, but I was pretty sure they could be better. Sometimes the same plane would feel great and other times just not doing the job (on the same wood). Interesting that others have the same impression. I haven't been very active lately so I have a collection of chisels and plane blades waiting for attention. So I will see how that goes.

I got a lathe at the end of last summer, and after a few months of use, I concluded that the turning tools were better off without honing. For the time they last when turning hardwoods it was easier and quicker to just tickle them up on the stone. Not worth the time to set up and hone, and no noticeable advantage in the performance or time the tool would last.

I agree 100%....turning tools take such a bashing that honing would be like "polishing a turd"

[Ken S]

(fro Mike):  "My 51 is part of the first run of 100, electro-pencil signed by The Man."

Mike, my Bedrocks are signed by Fred Flintstone with a cold chisel!  (just kidding)...."The Man (Tom Lie-Nielsen) certainly knows how to make quality tools.  His Stanley inspired planes are leagues beyond the originals.  Your 51 is certainly a prime tool.  (Don't be afraid to use it!)  By the way, have you ever met Tom Lie-Nielsen?  (You might want to answer this in handtools.  we are getting off topic.)

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

I think we're in Handtools.     I have not met him personally but have spoken with him a few times on the phone - probably because I started buying his tools about 21 years ago, and back then he was as likely as anyone to answer the phone.  I believe he still would if he heard it ring too many times.  I recall in one conversation he was about to introduce the Boggs spokeshave and seemed genuinely interested in my thoughts on it.  Not just a passing, patronizing interest, but a real desire to know how a customer would use it and what they would like or not like in it.  I don't make it a habit of deifying people, but TLN in my humble opinion, is almost single-handedly responsible for the resurgence of hand tools we see today, and as a result of that, for bringing back hand tool skills virtually from the dead.  Every other small and large company that is now seeing success in the hand tool market owes him a debt of gratitude beyond measure.  I've wondered what the succession plans are for LN; I assume he will retire at some point.  But as long as he, or Deneb, or someone there is making tools at the level they have for the first 30+ years, I hope to be fortunate enough to buy them.

Speaking of Deneb - the first time I encountered him was at one of The Woodworking Shows in Kansas City.  He was but a young buck with a pony tail halfway to his butt, but OMG could that guy make tools sing.  I know Jeff will remember that.  Who knew all these years later he'd be the VP and heir-apparent.

Actually I was in Jeff's audience in those days too, I just couldn't afford a Tormek at the time - usually because there was almost always a vendor selling Bessey K-Bodies for half of what they normally go for, and I couldn't get them like that at any other time of the year.  Which kind of worked out for me in the long run, because I really like all the improvements that have come together in the T7.  I still remember standing there in the Tormek crowd thinking, "How does that guy talk all day and not lose his voice??" 

[Ken S]

Very nice post, Mike.  (Yes, we are in handtools.....senior moment..)

You might be interested in a recent podcast on the finewoodworkingwebsite.  it is a very long and fascinating interview with Robin Lee, President of Lee Valley and Veritas.  He describes his thoughts on the differences between his company's tools/philosophy and those of Lie-Nielsen.  His comments are very positive with good insight and the good manners one would expect from someone from Canada.  Interesting tool and steel thoughts, too.

I have enjoyed Deneb's videos on the L-N site.  I would enjoy meeting him someday, as I would that guy who demoed the Tormek.

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

I hadn't seen that podcast, I'll definitely check it out.  Rob's tools are first rate - very innovative - and he has set an entirely new standard for customer service (and I didn't think it could get any better than LN).  I have his small plough, mostly because one of the things he excels at is bringing new tools to market very quickly.  If LN had gotten their plough to market when they said they were going to, I can almost guarantee that's the one I would've bought.  But that's one of those models LN keeps saying is coming, but never seems to.  Supposedly their big priority for this year is the compass plane.  I hope that happens.