Wire edge formation on a knife

[Elden]

"The wire edge will be of variable size, depending on the quality of the steel in the blade.  Don't worry so much about the wire edge as having the two bevels meet at the center of the blade."  Jeff Farris

Was glad to run across across this post by Jeff. Sometimes I had trouble bringing up a burr on a knife.

[Herman Trivilino]

But, unless you have a wire edge (a burr) however small, your bevel has not yet reached the cutting edge.

So, this advice applies as you're sharpening.  Instead of focusing on the appearance of the burr, focus on making the two bevels meet in the middle.  Eventually the burr will appear, you can feel it, and if you grind on the other side the burr will immediately shift to the other side.

Am I understanding this correctly?

[Elden]

Herman,
Maybe someone that knows better than I will chime in.
When looking straight into the edge of the knife, I can't see any light reflection from a good light, then I know that the edges have come together. I also keep a magnifying glass and an eye loop close by to use.

[Herman Trivilino]

You're right, Elden.  I also check by feeling, though, as two senses are better than one.

By the way, the light immediately above my machine has a magnifying glass built into in.  It's about six inches wide and I am constantly wiping the water off the edge and examining it under the magnifier.  That's the only way to make sure I'm grinding uniformly.  I have to constantly make adjustments to keep the edge straight and uniform.

I keep my dry grinder right next to it in case I want to take off a lot of steel in a hurry.

[Jeff Farris]

Where this statement came up, if I remember, is that on some knives of certain steels the burr is very, very difficult to see or feel. Some guys get so wrapped up in creating a burr that they don't pay attention to the really important issue, which is the intersection of the two bevels.

[grepper]

Yea!  I've seen that on hard stainless.  I just bail on the burr!  Hard stainless does not seem to bend a lot.  What has been helpful for me, is just to turn the knife often, burr or not, and keep an equal bevel.

I posted this on another thread, but I found it most informative in understanding a wire edge, burring and honing.  It seems little daunting on the face of it, but it's really pretty light reading once you get over the hump.   Electron microscopy of an edge is exactly the same as something you can see and/or feel, it's just smaller!

It includes the Tormek!

www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf

[Rob]

I read it too

It's basically the same discussion as in Leonard lees book

[Herman Trivilino]

Yea!  I've seen that on hard stainless.  I just bail on the burr!  Hard stainless does not seem to bend a lot.  What has been helpful for me, is just to turn the knife often, burr or not, and keep an equal bevel.

That may explain why my local sushi chef (I like to talk to him, my wife is the one who likes his creations) sharpens his knife with just a wet stone.  You don't need to hone it on leather because the steel's so hard there's no burr.  And that may be why he has to sharpen it every night.  If you ever let it get dull you're in for a lot of work getting it sharp again if all you have is a wet stone and some elbow grease.

[grepper]

I like my fish cooked, and my knives sharp.  Is there some wisdom in that?

On anything larger than a pocket knife, I have a very difficult time freehand sharpening. Well, i.e., I suck at it.  Could it be possible that he secretly sneaks away, late at night, for a visit with his T-7 in the basement?

Just kidding.  You've got to respect his craftsmanship.  I'll be he can get his knives razor sharp.

[Herman Trivilino]

I like my fish cooked, and my knives sharp.  Is there some wisdom in that?

Plenty!

On anything larger than a pocket knife, I have a very difficult time freehand sharpening.

By freehand you mean with a wet stone?  I've never had any success with those. 

[Rob]

I've reached a balance with my kitchen knives. I sharpen them maybe once a year on the T7. If I'm not too bothered about the knife ill freehand it. If I have a lot of respect for it ill pop it in the jig

Once sharp I use a steel every time I use them...just 6 passes on each side of the bevel. I keep them in a block on the counter top and I never dishwash them

That process keeps them sharp enough to slice tomatoes including cutting through the skin with no squashing.

Free handing gets the cheaper ones sharp but the bevel isn't going to win any single facet competitions.

Point is.....usual story with the Tormek...get them prepared once then little and often to keep them tip top. A steel doesn't quite get them like straight off the Tormek but its easily good enough for every day use...and I do a lot of cooking

[Herman Trivilino]

Free handing gets the cheaper ones sharp but the bevel isn't going to win any single facet competitions.

When I have a single facet along each side of the edge I'll know I've reached freehand nirvana.  I'm not there ... yet.

Like you, Rob, I also use the steel just about every time I pick up a kitchen knife.

Growing up the family butchered a lot of deer and the occasional front quarter of beef.  My dad always used the steel in futile attempts to sharpen the knives.  I always knew he was doing something wrong, which is what eventually led me to the Tormek, I think.

Speaking of deer meat, is the term used in the UK venison or venzen?  Growing up near and hunting in the Adirondack mountains family members always called it venzen.  When i went to college a chap I knew laughed at that hick term.  But to my surprise in a recent episode of Downton Abbey the earl referred to it as venzen.  I was quite surprised at this since over here we think of the British upper class as being as far from an Adirondack Mountain hick as you can get.
 

[Rob]

Venison...I've never heard the term Venzon. You know Downton's fiction right?

[Ken S]

for your linguistic pleasure......

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/13/146652747/im-just-sayin-there-are-anachronisms-in-downton

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I'm just sayin', I thought it strange that an earl would use that term.