Hand Saw Sharpening

[RobinW]

A tool which needs sharpening, and common to all woodworkers, is the hand saw.

Much as I would like to, I refuse to go out and purchase some new good quality saws until I can find a supplier, or precision tool, that could re-sharpen them to factory condition. (I am not talking about panel saws with hardened points as used for joinery/carpentry work - I have some of these and they suit their intended task well, and are 'disposable' - I am talking about quality carcase/tenon/dovetail saws for cabinetmaking.)

I have tried resharpening saws myself with limited success and I got frustrated as I could not  achieve the accuracy and repeatability I desired. Also, at my age do I not want to spend a load more time trying to achieve the standard I seek - I want to pick up a saw and use it.

I have spent a lot of time trying to locate companies which could sharpen hand saws with teeth ranging from 15 to 21 teeth per inch, with rip and cross cut options. Not many around!

One manufacturer sharpened one of their own tenon saws as a 'favour', but they do not offer this as a normal service. The Saw Doctors Association put me in touch with some companies, but they could not do the number of teeth per inch required. Handsaws just don't seem to have a place in the service industry.

I did manage to get my two oldest saws resharpened and the company concerned did this using files. (These saws are pushing 100 years old but feel right when in hand and are a delight to use compared to many others I have tried. However the blades (like my body) have seen better days!)

Having spent a career in engineering where accuracy, tolerance and performance were integral to the products we designed and manufactured, plus the tooling necessary to achieve that standard, then I am all for precision machining and the standards that can be achieved.

In the USA, Lie-Nielsen do a sharpening service for the remarkably cheap price of $15 including shipping but this service is not available in the UK. Their website says their saws "...are durable, but easily sharpened with a file." Their website does not appear to give teeth profile information although there is some information about how sharpening could be done - including the words 'with practice'.

Veritas do not provide a sharpening service but their website provides very specific teeth profile information - which I appreciate. However I do not see how a Veritas saw can be maintained to this standard without some form of accurate jig and tool arrangement. If handsaws are specified with specific included, rake and bevel angles, I am assuming these are achieved with CNC or purpose made grinding machines, and hand sharpening will not replicate that process.

I have spent so much time over the years getting my chisels and plane blades up to standard. I bought a T7 to save more wear and tear on my finger joints and now I'm up the T7 learning curve I can resharpen blades and chisels quickly and accurately. I would like to get to a similar situation with saw sharpening.

Maybe Tormek could make another jig and grinding wheel that could perform this task and produce a better ground result than most people could achieve with a file. For example, a narrow wheel asymmetrically profiled for 60 degree inclusive angle, 14 degree rake, and a jig which would hold the saw at the bevel angle (for cross cut) and a tooth arrangement so that the blade could be stepped along at the desired teeth per inch.

If I had costed the time and effort I have put, this year alone, into investigating how to get my saws sharpened, it would have been cheaper buying a new saw!

Anyone care to comment about their experiences with handsaws?

[Ken S]

Robin, i seem to recall you live in the UK.  Correct?  If so, you might want to contact David Charlesworth.  He is a former member (though not very active) of this forum.  His technique seems first-rate.  He might recommend a good sharpening service in the UK.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I'm fortunate to have a local sharpening service that does a nice job on hand saws and also on carbide-tipped table saw blades.  Thye of course sharpen other stuff, but I don't need them for that as I have a Tormek 2000.

[Mike Fairleigh]

I second Kens' recommendation.  If there is anyone in the UK who sharpens saws properly, David should know about them.

In the US, there are a few folks who are known for doing outstanding saw sharpening.  Bad Axe Toolworks comes to mind, but there are others.  You might post a question over on the Woodnet Forums to see if there is one that will ship to/from the UK.

[DaveTapel4]

but I don't need them for that as I have a Tormek 2000.

Does the Tormek 2000 sharpen tenon saws? I didn't think it could do that?

[Ken S]

Dave, I think you may have misinterpreted Herman' comment.  The Tormek does not sharpen saws.  It does sharpen many other tools well with skill.

Ken

[Ken S]

ps  I just ordered and watched Chris Schwarz' DVD "Sawing Fundamentals".  As I have found with Chris' books and DVDs in the past, he has done a good job.  He also demonstrates the three classes of saw cuts as stated by Robert Wearing.

Ken

[RobinW]

I have made no progress in the handsaw sharpening saga!

Following Ken S's comment, I have been in touch with David Charlesworth who advised that his students tend to use either Sun Child Duzoki (Japanese saw) or Veritas dovetail saws. David suggested that I contact a certain company here in UK but he also commented "although I have one of their top rated saws and it is dreadful......"

That didn't fill me with confidence!

The following is extracted from the response I received from Veritas.

"The teeth on the saws are ground by machine during production but they are able to be re-sharpened by hand. Sharpening by hand is not difficult it just takes some practice. It is not critical that all of the teeth are exactly matched or have exactly the same angle on them."

To me that beats the point of accurately making them in the first place!

I have also been in touch with Michael Huntley a well known and respected Furniture Restorer (and former editor of Furniture and Cabinet Making Magazine). He too couldn't help. He previously had a chap who was a saw doctor but has passed on. Michael is also a keen proponent of Japanese saws and has written articles on the various types and their uses.

So where does that leave me? Somewhat baffled and disappointed by the handsaw manufacturers.

Why is there such effort in getting plane blades, chisels, turning gouges, carving tools etc sharpened to the n'th degree, when the job is spoiled by a poorly made saw cut?

Do I convert to Japanese pull saws (which are hardpoint, fairly cheap and disposable) and spend time learning a new cutting technique?

Or just buy western style saws (which cost more) and treat them as disposable? - That goes against the grain! (No pun intended)

Or how about Tormek making an additional jig and sharpening wheel so that I can do it myself?

I can't be alone with this issue - or am I? If I make any progress in due course I'll re-post.

[Jeff Farris]

While I sympathize with your predicament, if you look at the geometry involved, it doesn't take much to see that the design of the Tormek would make that quite an amazing (and expensive) transformation. I'm not sure that it is even possible and no mechanized saw sharpening equipment I've ever seen has been based on wide, slow-rotation wheel.

[ironduke]

I am in the same position:  good old Disston handsaws, some rust on them, arthritis in my hands, other demands on my time.  I read the Bad Axe website (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-restoration-services.html) and they have what you want, I think.  Nothing there about US-only...   Try the Bad Axe site, check the instructions and prices (hopefully you get what you pay for at Bad Axe), test your saws and pack them per their instructions, and give it a try.  We would all like to hear how things turn out for you.   Good luck!

[Ken S]

Ironduke, thanks for posting an excellent website.  I enjoyed looking at and have saved it for reference.

Robin, I think you may be mistaken about Lie-Nielsen's sharpening service.  I believe the "US only" refers to the fifteen dollar cost, including return postage.  I would be very surprised if they were unwilling to service UK customers if you paid the difference in shipping.  It would be worth an inquiry email to them.

By the way, Robin, this is an excellent post subject.

I'll write more later.

Ken

[RobinW]

Thanks to Ironduke for the interesting link - pity there is no one just down the road from me doing the same service.

There are a few things I should clear up.

I have not contacted Lie Nielsen (USA) to see if they would sharpen saws if shipped back from here. Lets get things into perspective - shipping a saw 4000 miles each way for sharpening is a bit over the top!

(I must also relate a story about a Lie Nielsen saw. A few years ago a friend purchased one of their progressive tooth saws direct from the USA as they had not been launched over here at the time. He got hit with a large customs import duty which almost doubled the price of the saw! As this was a birthday present from his wife, he didn't dare tell her what the all up costs really were!)

Looking at the Bad Axe Tool Works link supplied by Ironduke, basic sharpening $45 (£28); Re-toothing and sharpening $60 (£37) or complete rehabilitation $165 (£102)  -  good if you are close at hand.

Now for example, Axminster sell new Veritas rip or cross cut carcase saws at £60; small cross cut saw at £58.5 (about twice the cost of Bad Axe sharpening).

In comparison Lie Nielsen carcase saws are £119; Progressive Pitch Dovetail saws £117.

Similarly Japanese saws are ranged from £38 to £68 and spare blades in the order of half these prices.

The economic answer is to use Japanese saws and as the teeth are hardpoint, just replace the blade. However it has taken me lots of practice to use a western saw properly for good quality work, so don't fancy starting again up the Japanese saw learning curve.

If I take my existing saws, (and some would look at them and saw they are not worth the effort!) - and I sent them to Bad Axe Tool Works and then add the shipping costs, possible customs duty, or shipper's fees to handle through customs etc, it's not worth the effort. I might as well buy say a new Veritas saw, and bin it when dull.

Then put this all in context for similar amounts of money:-

Lie Nielsen bevel edge chisels are £47
Spare blade for a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 plane costs £44
Veritas bench chisels cost £47

Would you ditch any of the above (or indeed cheaper models) when it got dull? No way - that's why you've got a Tormek and looking at this!

So what am I missing about saw sharpening and its lack of profile in the woodworking world compared with other tools?

Regarding my comments - and Jeff's response - about Tormek for sharpening saws. I envisage taking off the existing wide wheel, fitting a very narrow wheel where the edge is say profiled in a V shape with an included angle of say 60 degrees, which could be re-profiled by a simple notched tool.

The saw would be held by a tool in the horizontal plane by a tool, say based on SVD-110, modified so that the saw would be stepped along at the required tpi spacing. That would (in simplistic terms!) cover a rip cut. The same saw holding jig, then angled up/down a measured amount at one end relative to the mounting bar would then provide the necessary skew angle for cross cut teeth.

Now even if Tormek thought this a good idea, after development costs, manufacturing/distribution costs etc what would we pay for a tool that could sharpen handsaws? That is when it becomes interesting!

A few years ago I contacted Fein (makers of the Multimaster tool - great tool for what it was designed for) and suggested that they look at an extra accessory for saw sharpening. I also contacted their staff demonstrating at shows and sketched how I thought such a saw sharpening accessory could be made. Result - zero.

Anyway, I must stop as I am obviously from the planet Far Gone!

Who knows, maybe Santa will produce something for me!

[Ken S]

Robin, you are in a frustrating situation.I saw a Veritas dovetail saw at a dovetail cutting class.  It looked like a very nice tool, well designed and manufactured.  I have a high opinion of Veritas and Lee Valley.  Buying the Veritas saws would seem the practical solution for you, factoring in all the "nonsense" (shipping, customs duty, etc.).

I would not give up looking for a good local sharpening service. 

I can understand your desire for precision.  I'm not an engineer or machinist, however, I have a hobby interest in machine tool technology and have friends who are retired machinists.  I spent my working years installing and repairing telephone voice and data circuits.  Both machine work and telephone work function within quality parameters.  Machinists work "within tolerance".  Even POTS (plain old telephone service) has quality service standards established by the operating companies and regulators.  The standards are actually quite high (if done properly).  Standards are much more stringent for high speed data circuits.

My question is, for sharpening handsaws, how tight do the tolerances need to be?  At what point to we cross over between an edge which cuts well and accurately to window dressing precision?

I would think this kind of question would be a regular thought pattern with engineers, and that the answers would include many "it depends".  A saw blade designed for cutting framing lumber for houses would be very different from a saw for precise and delicate trimming of molding or making dovetails on fine furniture.

How accurate do saw teeth need to be? Did the past master furniture makers insist on sharpening their own saws, or was that done by their apprentices?  (I don't know the answer, I'm just asking the question.)

I used to have a saw vise made by a carpenter for his own use which fit into a window frame.  Used that way, it gave him very good light.  A fifteen point rip filed dovetail saw, ten inches long, has about 150 teeth to sharpen.  Working carefully and methodically, that might e a morning's project.  My Disston dovetail saw is the better part of a century old. doubtless, a touch up with a file would help it cut better.

Robin, you have raised an interesting question which effects many of us.  Do keep us posted.

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

Also realize that even if Tormek had a saw jig - something that would be very expensive to design and make - it wouldn't absolve the user from the need to understand the fundamentals of saw sharpening.  Pitch, set, rake, and fleam are all critical in the sharpening process and even with a jig you would have to know what your goals for that saw are and how to achieve them by manipulating all four of those variables.  That is where the value of a good saw man comes in - not merely that he happens to have a saw vise and a pile of files.  In other words, this is an application where no jig (Tormek or otherwise) can really work.

If you were to ship a saw to someone like Bad Axe (and I'm not suggesting necessarily that you do, I'm sure the shipping would be a killer), he wouldn't ask you how you want your saw pitched, set, raked, and fleamed.  He would ask you how you use the saw, what it does well, and what you want it to do better.  He would then take that information and file the saw in such a way as to (hopefully) achieve those goals.  I don't see any way for a jig to provide that same service.

I agree with the others - I just can't believe there isn't a good saw man somewhere in the UK.  You had it there before we had it here!

[Elden]

Foley Belsaw has made excellent equipment in the past for sharpening handsaws, circular saw blades, etc. In the past I used to sharpen both. I still have several Foley Belsaw pieces of equipment in my shed. The reason? There is not much of a resale market for equipment that sharpens steel blades. Machines that are capable of doing carbide is a different story.
An old 387 filer can be picked up for a song, however carrier bars are needed for handsaws which most listings I have seen do not include them. File holders and files are also required. There also is a learning curve. Shipping? Don't think about it! These machines weigh as much as several Tormeks!
Set is very important in a handsaw. If there is not enough set, a sharp saw will not cut. Old hand sets can still be found.
If the teeth are decent but just dull, as someone else mentioned, they can be hand filed. The teeth should be set before sharpening. The old handsaw vice makes holding the saw easier but is not absolutely necessary. It can be held in a regular vice with the teeth held a little above the jaws and filing them in sections (only file the teeth above the vice jaws) . A couple of boards could be used in conjunction with the vice to lengthen the holding area.
The teeth should be jointed (made to be the same height) before sharpening, which is easily accomplished with a flat file.  The flat file is laid squarely (90 degree angle to the body of the saw) on the teeth and drawn from one end to the other as many times as is necessary to make all the teeth to have a sleight shiny flat spot on their tips. Note: If this is a crowned saw, I wouldn't recommend jointing.
Use the appropriate size triangular file (the file face should be twice as high as the teeth height). Basically match the bevel and rake of the teeth. A crosscut saw should about a 15 degree bevel and 15 degree rake while a rip saw has a 0 degree bevel and 8 degree rake.
The crosscut saw teeth are alternately  beveled, pay close attention to the previous sharpening.
When filing, you are just wanting to remove enough material from the front and back of the teeth to barely remove the bright shiny spot from jointing mentioned above. This will make the teeth the same height.
This is a brief description for a saw in pretty good condition.

For a much better description than my memory can give check out:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
http://www.motherearthnews.com/do-it-yourself/sharpening-handsaw-ze0z11zhir.aspx

The first one is lengthy but tops.

Elden