Is there still a wire burr at 200 Bess?

[tgbto]

To add my $.02 to the answers to the initial question, my answer is "yes, probably". An easy way of knowing is to mark with a sharpie the place where you take you measurement on the BESS test medium. Then you can examine this area carefully with your microscope. If there was a burr, you'll see a dent on your edge.

[Drilon]

Hello Alan,

I also had the problem to read the KS-123 scale (Pic_1). So I purchased a small but bright LED light (Pic_2). Now I can read the scale of the KS-123 easily (Pic_3).

Regards,
DrilonYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

[ABall]

Im actually doing them for free,    I regret buying the Bess tester now, ok, not too much, Ive done one of my Globals tonight and while its way better than theirs, its still not bellow 120, (Actually hit 120 with a little manual stropping) 'ignorance is bliss' springs to mind   Im the sort of person that wont be happy until that burr is completely removed, hense the title. One thing to note, even with my glasses on, going from a brand new SB to a 240mm SG, the KS-123 isnt perfect, or my eyesight isnt, I guess this advocates the use of software and measuring, damn.

Alan,

I do not believe that your purchase of the PT-50A was a mistake. In fact, I think returning or selling it would be short sighted if you are serious about mastering knife sharpening. I knew the late Mike Brubacher of the Brubacher Edge Sharpening System through email for many years. Like Vadim, Mike tragic early passing was a loss to the sharpening community.

This isone of my favorite KnifeGrinders videos. It shows what an experienced sharpener like Vadim could do with the basic Tormek equipment and technique. He sharpened a knife at 12°per side to BESS 75. If Vadim could do that, I have no doubt that you could match that once your skill and experience level matches his. Here is a link:

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=iRCTFcUxATXu8N-S

I don't recall your sharpening angle. That effects BESS scores.

The highly experienced Tormek Design Committee spent years designing and perfecting the KS-123. It's fine if you prefer software and measuring. I do suggest you spent more time evaluating the KS-123 before making an informed decision about it. i encourage you to stay the course and keep us posted.

Ken

Thanks Ken, I will watch that vid indeed. I dont prefer software and I love the KS-123. Im grinding at 15 degrees, Ive read a lot of posts on here from people who have no issue getting bellow 100 at that angle so Im sticking to it for edge rentention. I will be very happy with 100-120, I almost purchased a decent microscope but instead decided to get a new phone, I hope to get some good close ups so I can see what the bevel looks like.

[ABall]

To add my $.02 to the answers to the initial question, my answer is "yes, probably". An easy way of knowing is to mark with a sharpie the place where you take you measurement on the BESS test medium. Then you can examine this area carefully with your microscope. If there was a burr, you'll see a dent on your edge.

Thanks, something ive been doing yes, ive gone through all the clips that came with the Bess and running through the spindle now but ive only ever had one dent, surprised I had to grind it out. I think Im dealing with a very fine burr at the 120-150 level, after 5 years of sharpening Im starting again now I have the Bess, I think Its a great and very worthwhile purchase, I will persevere.

[ABall]

Hello Alan,

I also had the problem to read the KS-123 scale (Pic_1). So I purchased a small but bright LED light (Pic_2). Now I can read the scale of the KS-123 easily (Pic_3).

Regards,
DrilonYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

Hello Alan,

I also had the problem to read the KS-123 scale (Pic_1). So I purchased a small but bright LED light (Pic_2). Now I can read the scale of the KS-123 easily (Pic_3).

Regards,
DrilonYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

what a great idea! Flashlights are another addiction of mine, only a mild one compared to some thankfully. I have one a very old light from Maplins that works very well, I am just going to have to be a little more carefull.

Did you upload those pics from your PC or from a hosting site? I cant seem to add a pic from my PC in "Quick Reply" and cant see a "Go Advanced" option like other forums have.

[ABall]

Hi folks, so its been a few years but I've got back into sharpening with my T8. Partly due to the Ks-123 but partly due to moving house and finally getting a workshop setup.
To cut a long story short, I purchased a PT50A and its killing me! It now appears I have all the gear and no idea! I have everything I need to get down to 50 Bess and I cant get below 160 and that's on a clip not the manual media. I was an avid follower of Vadim and have been using his techniques for years but never tested my knives on a Bess.
Just to be clear, I'm not chasing 50 Bess, I'm not chasing anything except proof of wire burr removal so I ask if its possible I've done it with a Bess score of 200-240? I've lost my scope in the move so I've been looking through a loupe and the edge looks clean, please see my pics, however, after getting down to 165 on a test clip, I cut some cardboard and it jumped to 205, this would suggest a burr remains after everything I've learned over the years? The knife is a Global, I've apexed it on CBN, SG, SB, ( finished it on SJ, tried grading on the SG, honed on Composit, Felt with diamonds and leather loaded with chromium oxide, (felt at various degrees and leather at original angle) the latter after diamonds yielded sub 200. Sorry the pics aren't great, I think my old S9+ was better at Macro than this S23U. I've tried .5 to 2.5 degrees increases on honing, I use a FVB. I have spent a lot of time honing, all this at 15 degrees but i did try 12, the test media dented the edge at 12 but I've been at this for days so it probably wasn't honed properly.
What do you guys think? I haven't tried any other knives, this one belongs to a friend who puts them in the dishwasher! I have my own Globals but I've been focussed on getting this knife bellow 100 Bess before I move on to his others and then mine. Just to reiterate, I'm only looking for low Bess as Vadim always said over 100 was an indication of the wire burr remaining.

Edit: best reading is 148 on a clip using leather and green paste at 2.5 degrees higher.

The sub 50 journey... yes it can be done, multiple ways.
I use the following process for sub 100 scores.  You will need a BESS tester, a quality set of calipers, a Tormek or knockoff (You may drive yourself crazy with the wide range of tolerances on those machines though) a second Tormek honing wheel, PA-70 and a 1mu diamond emulsion (some work, some don't, I use DMT brand).  I also use a microscope $29 on Amazon, 1000 magnification if an edge is suspect.

-I Grind to 15 Degrees on kitchen knives unless otherwise dictated (Shuns 16 degrees etc.).
Finish your grind on CBN or Diamond (Not sure if the stone will do this yet as this process is fairly new to me and I haven't tested yet).  Vadim say's it won't work with the stone, I will test at some point as other parts of his methods have work arounds.  I can say this works with 600 and 1000 CBN grinds.  Vadim stated it works with diamonds as well.

-After completing your grind with lighter passes to minimize the Burr you will need to use the multi jig to set up the Tormek honing wheel loaded with PA-70.  Set the universal bar so your angle is 15.4.  (I am currently testing +.5)

-Make two to three passes with medium pressure on the burrless side then one or two more pass on both sides and examine.  At this point there should be almost no burr.

-Make sure to remove all PA-70 from your work piece so you don't contaminate your next wheel.

-Test your edge, you should be anywhere from 100 to 500 depending on the burr.  if your still around 500 make another pass or two on the PA-70.

-Put on the second honing wheel loaded with 1mu diamonds... some work, some don't... (I'm using an emulsion from DMT).
Make two extremely light passes with the 1um diamonds.

-Make one extremely light pass on both sides and test.  With any luck you should be sub 100.

-If your score is not where you want it you can continue to use the 1mu wheel with very light pressure.  You do not want to round the apex.

This process has yielded edges as low as 30 but typically 60 to 80.  However, if you get readings as low as 50 or below, check your edge with a microscope and look for a burr or a foil edge.  Repeated very light passes do further refine the edge and can increase sharpness.

Vadim stated that the step required to remove the burr required a felt or paper wheel at +2 degrees (1.6 or others).  This process does remove the burr but it also polishes the edge. 

The 1mu wheel should clean up the burr without polishing the teeth away with repeated passes if the burr is stubborn.  I have had success raising the honing wheels to +.5 without rounding the apex. (with a light touch).

Typically, if this process is followed you will see edges in the 60 to 80 range. 


You can use the paper wheels and achieve the same results with a polished edge (6mu, then 1mu... .25 if you want). Slow passes and pressure create a lot of heat!
(Before using paper wheels use sand paper to make them as round with a smooth edge as you can, it will pay off later).

These processes seem to be as much technique as equipment... a light touch is your friend.
Al

Thanks for your methods, I can try most of this, Vadim sold me his felt wheel just before brexit and I purchased a couple of bottles of his diamond spray which I have plenty left. I dont have 2 leather wheels and the one I have is loaded with green paste, ive pretty much watched and copied Vadim purchasing a lot of what he used to use so I think I just need more practice.

[ABall]

The highly experienced Tormek Design Committee spent years designing and perfecting the KS-123. It's fine if you prefer software and measuring. I do suggest you spent more time evaluating the KS-123 before making an informed decision about it. i encourage you to stay the course and keep us posted.

I put the SJ on and put my Shanzu knife back in a jig to see if i could improve it, I used the KS-123 to set it up again from scratch and with 1 pass it wipped 99% of the sharpie off the edge, I will give it a 100% score to allow for user error in starting the pass, a second pass totally cleaned the edge of ink so I know its very accurate.  I wont be going back to software any time soon.  1 pass the the other side completely cleaned the ink off.

[Drilon]

Hello Alan,

as "Quick Reply" does not allow to upload picture files from the PC you should use "REPLY" instead. At the bottom line you will see the possibility to upload picture files from the PC. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Drilon

[Ken S]

"The sub 50 journey" seems like our version of climbing Mount Everest, "Because it is there". I don't mean to seem sarcastic. We all benefit from the work of pioneers pushing back the sharpness frontiers. Using BESS to make sure that burr is completely removed benefits day to day sharpening, long after the sub fifty reading is gone.

Ken

[ABall]

Hello Alan,

as "Quick Reply" does not allow to upload picture files from the PC you should use "REPLY" instead. At the bottom line you will see the possibility to upload picture files from the PC. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Drilon

Ah thank you Drilon, I was hoping to do it using the "quote" button but I guess I can use copy/paste to do that and use Reply.

[ABall]

"The sub 50 journey" seems like our version of climbing Mount Everest, "Because it is there". I don't mean to seem sarcastic. We all benefit from the work of pioneers pushing back the sharpness frontiers. Using BESS to make sure that burr is completely removed benefits day to day sharpening, long after the sub fifty reading is gone.

Ken

Im way to lazy to try and get sub 50, once I reach 100 I'm done, its getting tedious just re stringing the Bess tester! Once the method is proven i will use it less and less, its not a competition for me, just looking for longevity. 

[BPalv]

"The sub 50 journey" seems like our version of climbing Mount Everest, "Because it is there". I don't mean to seem sarcastic. We all benefit from the work of pioneers pushing back the sharpness frontiers. Using BESS to make sure that burr is completely removed benefits day to day sharpening, long after the sub fifty reading is gone.

Ken

Im way to lazy to try and get sub 50, once I reach 100 I'm done, its getting tedious just re stringing the Bess tester! Once the method is proven i will use it less and less, its not a competition for me, just looking for longevity. 

I don't intentionally pursue 50 BESS readings, they just happen using this current technique.
I have tested ultra sharp edges and they only stay that way for one use.  They will be reading over 100 with one use.  Vadim was very clear when he stated the sharper a knife is to start, the longer it will remain sharp.  Depending on the use of course.
My target when I sharpen is 100.

[tgbto]

Vadim was very clear when he stated the sharper a knife is to start, the longer it will remain sharp.  Depending on the use of course.
My target when I sharpen is 100.

I haven't read Vadim's book in a while but I think I remember him saying that initial sharpness was a lesser factor wrt edge retention than the bevel angle.

[ABall]

Thought I would update,after trying lots of methods, including forking out on a DE-250, best method so far gave me a 79, havent tried to repeat it yet. This was on my Enlan EL-01, SG-250 graded with an 80G diamond plate then straight onto the leather honing wheel at exact angle. One thing I did earlier was remove the green Bacher honing compound from it and applied the old PA-70, this improved all my tests. 6 wheels that wont be getting used as much, was going to replace my SJ wheel as I had to true damage from it but I think its about £100 more expensive than when it first came out, (or thats what my memory is telling me) Im wrapping that one in cotten wool!

[Ken S]

I have no doubt that the individual methods described will yield superior results; however, we should not overlook Wootz' (Knifegrinders) simple but precise all Tormek method. He demonstrates how to teg a BESS reading of 75 using the SG-250 wheel and leather honing wheel with Tormek PA-70 honing paste. No fancy extra steps, just solid technique. Here is a link:

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=zMJU3YwknIIg8R0M

Ken