Sharpening On Stone w/ Leather Wheel Removed For Additional Clearance?

[Thy Will Be Done]

Is it possible to just simply remove the locknut and leather wheel from the unit while grinding on the stone?  I fear the handle of longer knives will hit on the wheel and catch leading to an unsafe condition.  Truthfully I never use the leather wheel and would prefer to just always have it off assuming it doesn't cause mechanical complications to the unit.

[3D Anvil]

Sure, the leather wheel has no effect on the stone wheel (except to get in the way on occasion ).  The drive wheel is secured with a separate nut.

[Ken S]

Leaving the leather honing off of the Tormek, either temporarily or permanently is easy enough to do. My question is, why would someone want to do it? I will state that my knife sharpening needs are simple, mostly "standard issue" kitchen knives with rather straight blade shapes, chef's knives, nakiri, and paring knives. I have never noticed a problem with the handle bumping into the leather honing wheel while grinding. Perhaps you work on different knife shapes.

I have not seen Wolfgang, Sebastien or Stig remove the leather honing wheel while grinding during any of the knife sharpening online classes.

Please let me know if I am overlooking something.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Leaving the leather honing off of the Tormek, either temporarily or permanently is easy enough to do. My question is, why would someone want to do it? I will state that my knife sharpening needs are simple, mostly "standard issue" kitchen knives with rather straight blade shapes, chef's knives, nakiri, and paring knives. I have never noticed a problem with the handle bumping into the leather honing wheel while grinding. Perhaps you work on different knife shapes.

I have not seen Wolfgang, Sebastien or Stig remove the leather honing wheel while grinding during any of the knife sharpening online classes.

Please let me know if I am overlooking something.

Ken

Well, one thing you're overlooking is they always start with a new grinding wheel.   As the wheel wears, the leather wheel interfering increases.

[Ken S]

You are correct, CB. The grinding wheel will wear with use. While a very worn grinding wheel might make some knive handles more likely to rub against the leather honing wheel, why eliminate the important honing function of the Tormek unless it is necessary. Actually, if my stone became worn enough to cause rubbing with some knives, I would purchase a new stone and reserve the worn stone for shorter knives and other tools.

Ken

[cbwx34]

You are correct, CB. The grinding wheel will wear with use. While a very worn grinding wheel might make some knive handles more likely to rub against the leather honing wheel, why eliminate the important honing function of the Tormek unless it is necessary. Actually, if my stone became worn enough to cause rubbing with some knives, I would purchase a new stone and reserve the worn stone for shorter knives and other tools.

Ken

(And as you've pointed out before, it's easy to add to the T-4.)

[Ken S]

Good thinking, CB. I replaced the hex nut holding the leather honing wheel with the quick connect in 2014/15 right after getting my T4. (I also replaced the plastic EZYlock nut with a spare metal EZYlock, standard equipment with the T8.) I don't have any scythes or axes. Until recently, my longest knife was eight inches. I have had no need to remove my leather honing wheel, although I can certainly understand why some might need to do so.

In any case, the quick connect is the way to go. Here is a link:

https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/products/50-locking-knob-for-honing-wheel

Ken

[Thy Will Be Done]

I have zero plans to use the wheel for honing because I use waterstones for finishing, by hand.  Basically, I feel that stropping on leather with compound is a low quality way of applying finished edge.  It cancels out any perceived benefits of using high quality knives with superior steel and heat treat combination.

I use the grinding stone only for shaping and setting angles, which it's great for comparative to doing by hand on very coarse stones.  You end up with a lot of steel particles and worn abrasive in the leather which ends up burnishing, rather than cutting.  I do no want burnishing on the apex as is not good for the edge in many ways.

Something around 1000 grit waterstone that produces a bit of mud will quickly remove any damage the apex sustained in grinding and eliminate the burr.   Then it's simply a matter of microbeveling the very apex with whichever finishing stone or diamond plate you choose for the intended task of the knife. 

[Ken S]

Good plan.

I used bench stones for many years, first some inherited oilstones which were around before I was born in 1950. In the 1990s I switched to water stones. Both served me well. As I got older, my hands appreciated the Tormek. For my work, the three step Tormek technique serves me well. Except for occasional dovetailing, my chisel work was essentially carpentry projects. You have found a solid technique which suits your needs; stay with it. Leave the leather wheel off if you wish.

My one suggestion would be that "never" might be a bit too final. If you ever have to do something like sharpening twenty chisels for a school, you may appreciate having the possibility of quicker honing with the leather wheel. This kind of a situation may be more common than imagined. I know two otherwise very capable carpenters who, when a chisels gets dull, just buy another.

Ken

[Thy Will Be Done]

You are spot on, quality generally takes priority over quantity but you never know.  In that case, I'd probably hone extra light on the 220 to prepare the burr to remove.  Then double angle and draw short strokes over stationary stone wheel to remove burr alternating sides very lightly.  Then I'd micro bevel with diamond plate of suitable grit, I really don't believe the strop wheel saves much time over this approach and should yield much better result.

[BeSharp]

Vadim's research shows rock hard felt wheels and leather wheels deburr better than sharpening stones. My BESS sharpness tester often shows a HUGE increase in sharpness after stropping on a kangaroo strop.

Barbers for many years deburred on a leather strop. I suggest you give deburring a try on the Tormek leather wheel. There's a good reason why it's part of the Tormek package.

[Thy Will Be Done]

Vadim's research shows rock hard felt wheels and leather wheels deburr better than sharpening stones. My BESS sharpness tester often shows a HUGE increase in sharpness after stropping on a kangaroo strop.

Barbers for many years deburred on a leather strop. I suggest you give deburring a try on the Tormek leather wheel. There's a good reason why it's part of the Tormek package.

The concern is not shaving sharpness exactly but rather retaining slicing or draw cutting aggression and edge retention while still being razor sharp.  Usually when there is more burnishing you end up damaging the apex and subsequent edge retention, which is inevitable on any worn abrasive which is also full of metal particles.

[3D Anvil]

Vadim's research shows rock hard felt wheels and leather wheels deburr better than sharpening stones. My BESS sharpness tester often shows a HUGE increase in sharpness after stropping on a kangaroo strop.

Barbers for many years deburred on a leather strop. I suggest you give deburring a try on the Tormek leather wheel. There's a good reason why it's part of the Tormek package.

The concern is not shaving sharpness exactly but rather retaining slicing or draw cutting aggression and edge retention while still being razor sharp.  Usually when there is more burnishing you end up damaging the apex and subsequent edge retention, which is inevitable on any worn abrasive which is also full of metal particles.

I beg to disagree.  Every supremely talented sharpener I'm aware of finishes on something other than a stone, whether it be on a felt wheel, paper wheel, bench strop, belt strop, or hanging strop.  The purpose in doing so is to leave as clean of an apex as possible.  There are many examples of these methods producing edges capable of whitling hairs, and measuring sharper than a double-edged razor blade.  Now, it may be possible to achieve the same results finishing on a stone, but if it is, I've never seen it.

[cbwx34]

The concern is not shaving sharpness exactly but rather retaining slicing or draw cutting aggression and edge retention while still being razor sharp.  Usually when there is more burnishing you end up damaging the apex and subsequent edge retention, which is inevitable on any worn abrasive which is also full of metal particles.

I agree with this and also will often finish an edge on a stone, so that it will have "bite".  (Also, I can't find it right now, but in the wicked edge forum they had some good microscope pics of the burnishing that a leather strop did.)

I beg to disagree.  Every supremely talented sharpener I'm aware of finishes on something other than a stone, whether it be on a felt wheel, paper wheel, bench strop, belt strop, or hanging strop.  The purpose in doing so is to leave as clean of an apex as possible.  There are many examples of these methods producing edges capable of whitling hairs, and measuring sharper than a double-edged razor blade.  Now, it may be possible to achieve the same results finishing on a stone, but if it is, I've never seen it.

The goal isn't necessarily to achieve the "ultimate" edge, like your example of one that will whittle a hair, but to have an edge just as described above (that I put in bold).  I think Murray Carter was the first (that I remember) to demonstrate this... taking a knife finished on a leather strop that would shave, but wouldn't slice a tomato.  Murray, Harrelson Stanley (Nanohone), Ben Dale from Edge Pro, Cliff Stamp, and numerous others demonstrate finishing on a stone or ceramic with no additional stropping.  (Look at Cliff's "Basic three step knife sharpening" video.)  No right or wrong, just depends on what the goal is, and this thread probably shows the difference.  You may not achieve the "same results", it's more desired results.

[3D Anvil]

I get the concept -- not wanting to polish out the toothiness of the edge -- but I just don't see the benefit in practice.  If you want a toothy edge, just finish on a coarser stone and strop lightly.  As far as refined edges and tomato slicing, that hasn't been my experience.  If an edge is sharp enough to split a hair on contact, it will sail through tomato skin like it isn't there.