SVM-45 optimal blade thickness?

[Lape]

Here are my measurements. Sorry for the bad drawing.
As shown, the center is 1 mm above the bottom plate of the jig.

[cbwx34]

Not a solution for most I know, but I was able to rig up the clamp from the KME by adding a larger washer, and nut, to sorta mimic the Tormek jig (see attached pic).  (The KME clamp is self-centering).

The jig actually rides on the nut across the Universal Support.  Which got me wondering if something could be added to the standard jig at the Support area, to "ride on" when a slight angle change is needed for thicker knives?  Might be an alternative to grinding jigs or making a manual adjustment every time the blade is flipped.  Just an idea.

[Jan]

Cbwx, be careful not to scratch the USB.

I have dealt with similar considerations as you, but without a specific output. The form of the adjustable stop was designed for easy sharpening of typical knife belly.

Jan

[Jan]

Here are my measurements. Sorry for the bad drawing.
As shown, the center is 1 mm above the bottom plate of the jig.

Lape, I do not doubt your measurements at all. I have got similar results. But keeping in mind the limited accuracy of my measurements I have accepted the thickness of 2.5 mm based on deduction and not on direct measurement.

Tormek opinion is here as reply #7: https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2577.0

Jan

[cbwx34]

Cbwx, be careful not to scratch the USB.

I have dealt with similar considerations as you, but without a specific output. The form of the adjustable stop was designed for easy sharpening of typical knife belly.

Jan

Haven't noticed any scratches... but I'll keep an eye out.  Thanks.

I agree about the stop, and thought about trying to modify the KME jig to see if I could fit it on there... but decided probably not worth the effort.  (Maybe later).

I can set a knife to just "lift the handle" of the knife in most cases, to adequately cover the belly/tip area, (although I know rotating is usually the better option).

[Edgesup]

This problem with the knife jigs is not on the Tormek folks radar. These jigs are very old and antiquated and no one is concerned enough even though they do have issues with symmetry. There are solutions that have been shown from various folks out there and it would be nice if Tormek would make an upgrade. There are a plethora of these old jigs and change is hard cost etc... every manufacturer goes through growing pains. They have made great strides with their jigs and machines. Now to move on to the new innovation of the knife jig. 

[cbwx34]

This problem with the knife jigs is not on the Tormek folks radar. These jigs are very old and antiquated and no one is concerned enough even though they do have issues with symmetry. There are solutions that have been shown from various folks out there and it would be nice if Tormek would make an upgrade. There are a plethora of these old jigs and change is hard cost etc... every manufacturer goes through growing pains. They have made great strides with their jigs and machines. Now to move on to the new innovation of the knife jig. 

👍👍👍   

[Ken S]

Edgesup,

While I am not blind to the possibility of improvements to the knife jigs, I feel your criticism is too harsh and undeserved.

I may be known as the head cheerleader on this forum. I also believe I am the chief critic. Tormek traditionally introduces new items at the Spring Fair in Cologne. This year was no exception. The three new diamond wheels have far exceeded my expectations. I believe they will revolutionize the Tormek.

To be honest, I was expecting a new knife jig, not diamond wheels. To continue being honest, in my opinion, the benefits of a redesigned knife jig pale in comparison to the potential benefits of the three diamond wheels and the new multi base.

I have no inside information, however, I would be surprised if Tormek was not working on redesigning the knife jigs.  I think "band aid" may be a bit harsh, however, Tormek did not change the jig designation, as they did with the redesigned SE-76, now the SE-77. The redesigned SVD-185 became the SVD-186. The SVD-45 remains the SVD-45. I think we will see redesigned knife jigs when the resources of a small company permit. I would expect any company to make the best use of its existing products. That certainly does not mean that improved products are not being developed or that the company does not care.

Since I bought my first Tormek in 2009, The T4,8, and 2 have been introduced. The T4 in particular was a radical improvement. Several new grinding wheels have been introduced. The DBS-22 drill bit jig, truly new, has been introduced. About half of the jigs have been upgraded or redesigned. Tormek remains the leader in wet grinding innovation.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Edgesup,

While I am not blind to the possibility of improvements to the knife jigs, I feel your criticism is too harsh and undeserved.

I may be known as the head cheerleader on this forum. I also believe I am the chief critic. Tormek traditionally introduces new items at the Spring Fair in Cologne. This year was no exception. The three new diamond wheels have far exceeded my expectations. I believe they will revolutionize the Tormek.

To be honest, I was expecting a new knife jig, not diamond wheels. To continue being honest, in my opinion, the benefits of a redesigned knife jig pale in comparison to the potential benefits of the three diamond wheels and the new multi base.

I have no inside information, however, I would be surprised if Tormek was not working on redesigning the knife jigs.  I think "band aid" may be a bit harsh, however, Tormek did not change the jig designation, as they did with the redesigned SE-76, now the SE-77. The redesigned SVD-185 became the SVD-186. The SVD-45 remains the SVD-45. I think we will see redesigned knife jigs when the resources of a small company permit. I would expect any company to make the best use of its existing products. That certainly does not mean that improved products are not being developed or that the company does not care.

Since I bought my first Tormek in 2009, The T4,8, and 2 have been introduced. The T4 in particular was a radical improvement. Several new grinding wheels have been introduced. The DBS-22 drill bit jig, truly new, has been introduced. About half of the jigs have been upgraded or redesigned. Tormek remains the leader in wet grinding innovation.

Ken

Or, not harsh enough.

Kidding, but from my understanding, the "collar lock" was eliminated because users were over-tightening and breaking the collar, or stripping the threads.  So, while the redesign might not be considered a "band aid" solution, I think it would be hard to argue that the O-ring is as secure.  (Maybe a better solution would have been an insert for the screw?).  So, IMO, less secure = step backward.

To be fair... maybe some of this is Tormek just needing to "catch up" to what some knife sharpeners are now expecting?  Not that long ago, a knife would be considered "sharp" if it sliced a piece of copy paper, cut a ripe tomato, or shaved some arm hair.  Now it's "tree topping" arm hair, cutting phone paper, etc.  And, not as much attention was paid to things like "symmetrical bevels" or measuring angles (in fractions) as they are now.  And, to be fair, not all sharpeners do all of the above.

But, those who look to purchase a sharpener, in particular, a guided one, now seem to pay more attention to this.  In addition, there is a wider variety of knife styles, as well as higher end knives.

I don't "harp" for "self centering clamps", redesigned collars, etc. because I can't get a knife sharp with the current jig... I can.  I do it for the times I want some of the above features... and to make edges even better.

Hope that makes a bit of sense. 

[Herman Trivilino]

from my understanding, the "collar lock" was eliminated because users were over-tightening and breaking the collar, or stripping the threads.

Adjusting the collar used to be necessary for fine-tuning the angle, but that was before the micro-adjust feature was introduced. The SVM-45 is an ancient jig, but it's not clear how the suggested improvements could be engineered. The Tormek will allow one to easily adjust and measure the edge angle to within a couple degrees or more, and for me that's more than enough precision. I usually change the edge angle on a kitchen knife by 5 degrees if I want to alter the way it performs.

Slicing papers and arm hairs is all for show, although it does indeed demonstrate sharpness. It's the amount of roughness on the surface of the bevels that determines how a knife will perform in the kitchen. Sometimes you want the edge polished; but sometimes you want it rough, with a "tooth" to it. The Tormek allows for this variation well enough for me.

[cbwx34]

Adjusting the collar used to be necessary for fine-tuning the angle, but that was before the micro-adjust feature was introduced. The SVM-45 is an ancient jig, but it's not clear how the suggested improvements could be engineered. The Tormek will allow one to easily adjust and measure the edge angle to within a couple degrees or more, and for me that's more than enough precision. I usually change the edge angle on a kitchen knife by 5 degrees if I want to alter the way it performs.

Slicing papers and arm hairs is all for show, although it does indeed demonstrate sharpness. It's the amount of roughness on the surface of the bevels that determines how a knife will perform in the kitchen. Sometimes you want the edge polished; but sometimes you want it rough, with a "tooth" to it. The Tormek allows for this variation well enough for me.

The collar still turns, so if the micro-adjust made it unnecessary... seems they could have locked it in place?  There are numerous examples of the suggested improvements (although Tormek would probably  have to come up with its own variation).

You're right... the tests I described are examples to demonstrate sharpness level.  As for precision, look no further than examples in this forum, where some are measuring in tenths.

[Ken S]

My knife set up technique is different than most users. I do not use the micro adjust and I rarely adjust the projection of the knife jigs. With the kenjig, I set the support bar distance with a groove to the desired angle. It is fixed at 80mm, following Dutchman's tables. As my grinding wheel wears, I will increase this distance as dictated by the tables.

I have standardized on a projection of 139mm. By using three knife jigs (SVM 45/100/140), I do not have to adjust the jigs. Any minor compensation can be compensated by knife placement in the jig.

I have not noticed any slippage in my newest SVM, which has just the O ring. If I do, I will apply a layer of tape. I sharpen only my kitchen and pocket knives, therefore, I have not encountered thickness problems.

I am well aware that a minority of users who are higher volume sharpeners must deal with these problems. If Tormek wants to cater to high end business users, change is inevitable, and the sooner the better. I believe many users would embrace (purchase and use) these improved knife jigs.

We must remember that Tormek has constraints as a business that we as individuals do not have. I have made no secret that the kenjig is based on Dutchman's tables. Dutchman has never threatened to sue me for using his work. In fact, we enjoy occasional friendly emails. Nor would I think of complaining or bringing legal action when other members use and improve it. These ideas are freely offered, as are ideas like Herman's platform jig.

Tormek does not such luxuries. Tormek, like all businesses, must deal with the financial and legal realities of business. Originally I had hoped that Tormek might incorporate the kenjig into its product like. It would be a logical extension of the TTS-100. However, I soon realized that because I had posted it on the forum, Tormek would not use it because of the possibility of prior use legal action.

We have noted that other manufacturers jnife jigs are self centering. Why not Tormek? For Tormek to produce a self centering jig, they would have to invent a new and patentable way to do it, no easy task. They would also have to consider whether an improved, but more expensive product would be profitable. No matter how useful a product is, it must help make psyroll to keep a company afloat.

Ken

[wootz]

Hello again.

According to my recent measurements the jigs center is aligned with blades exactly 2 millimeter thick.
Hmm?

My value is 2.2mm, I use Rick's method detailed here: https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg21498#msg21498
Variation may depend on the jig issue, we still have a few old, you may have new.
And our current values are here http://knifegrinders.com.au/05Equipment_jigs.htm

Instead of shims we now use layers of cloth tape at the clamping site, just easier.

[Ken S]

Good post, Wootz.

I like precisely delineated problems with practical. low tech solutions.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Adjusting the collar used to be necessary for fine-tuning the angle, but that was before the micro-adjust feature was introduced. The SVM-45 is an ancient jig, but it's not clear how the suggested improvements could be engineered. The Tormek will allow one to easily adjust and measure the edge angle to within a couple degrees or more, and for me that's more than enough precision. I usually change the edge angle on a kitchen knife by 5 degrees if I want to alter the way it performs.

Slicing papers and arm hairs is all for show, although it does indeed demonstrate sharpness. It's the amount of roughness on the surface of the bevels that determines how a knife will perform in the kitchen. Sometimes you want the edge polished; but sometimes you want it rough, with a "tooth" to it. The Tormek allows for this variation well enough for me.

The collar still turns, so if the micro-adjust made it unnecessary... seems they could have locked it in place?  There are numerous examples of the suggested improvements (although Tormek would probably  have to come up with its own variation).

No one is saying that the micro-adjust made adjustments of the collar of the SVM-45 unnecessary. It is still needed for some adjustments, but the micro-adjust makes it not critically necessary for fine adjustments of the angle.

As for precision, look no further than examples in this forum, where some are measuring in tenths.

No one has ever demonstrated that they can use the SVM-45 to create an angle that's uniform to within a tenth of degree along the length of an edge. Not even close. I would bet that the best, most experienced sharpeners couldn't even achieve one degree, probably a few degrees is the best they could do.

Making a measurement that's accurate to within a tenth of a degree is not the same thing as being able to reproduce something to that level of precision.