a new angle setting tool

[RichColvin]

Rick,

The HanJig reminds me of the fast approach to drilling thru the centerline of a rod.  To get the drill thru the rod's centre, you have to find the exact center, side-to-side.  Easy enough with an edge finder and a digital readout.

But, I can get pretty darn close on the drill press by using a 6" metal ruler and a point in the chuck.  When the ruler seems parallel, I'm usually good enough.  Here's a video of what I'm saying.  The technique starts around 1:30 into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3WWoQDGO2c

Both this and the HanJig are what I also consider "very good enough".

(My high school shop teacher is probably rolling over in his grave ...)

Kind regards,
Rich

[RickKrung]

Rick,

The HanJig reminds me of the fast approach to drilling thru the centerline of a rod.  To get the drill thru the rod's centre, you have to find the exact center, side-to-side.  Easy enough with an edge finder and a digital readout.

But, I can get pretty darn close on the drill press by using a 6" metal ruler and a point in the chuck.  When the ruler seems parallel, I'm usually good enough.  Here's a video of what I'm saying.  The technique starts around 1:30 into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3WWoQDGO2c

Both this and the HanJig are what I also consider "very good enough".

(My high school shop teacher is probably rolling over in his grave ...)

Kind regards,
Rich

Good analogy, Rich. 

Balancing a ruler using a sharp point is a classic, "old school" quick-n-dirty trick that really works well.  I'm glad he discussed the type of ruler to use. 

When drilling, using that method, almost any regular drill is still going to walk, especially off of a radius.  Best to start the hole with a centerdrill to get the spot hole wider than the flutes on the drill.  If that is not possible, use a small pilot hole to help keep larger drills on center.

I've used that method for finding centerline for lathe turning tool bits more often than drilling holes in rods and it works just as well. 

Rick

[Elden]

Congratulations fellows! You have tied the longest thread containing 166 replies. That one was on 1/4" chisels. This reply carries it over that record.

[RickKrung]

...snip...
So... SharpPad after Leather Wheel (instead of SJ wheel) results? (180 is better than what you're getting with the SJ wheel...).

(I really think swapping wheels is going to quickly become an issue if you get busy, is my point here).

CB, you're going to like this. 

So, my daughter convinced me to start at the Farmer's Market tomorrow!    I don't know what I was thinking.  I had not yet figured out what wheels and deburring/polishing process works for this type of sharpening.

But, I was in the middle of making those jigs, so I finished two more 14º and 12º for a set of four.  I think that should cover it for routine blades at a FM.  Anything else, I'll use CB's app. 


Switching to getting set up with a table and figure out where things should go and what the work flow should be, I sat down to try it out.  I decided to try using only the SB stone, Leather Wheel and the SharpPAD, just to see if that would work and avoid the stone/wheel changes. 

SHAAZAAMM!  I knocked out three knives, two that I carry (Leatherman Wave and a Kershaw) and a cheapo from a thrift store (Good Cook).  Using the 16º jig, I set up the SB and LW.  I did the Wave first followed by the Good Cood.  Then switched to the 18º jig, set the angles and did the Kershaw.  I blackened the bevels first and checked how well the angles matched before doing any grinding.  Two were off a bit, but I ran them as is.  Everything went very smoothly and quickly.  I only got out of my seat to shift over to use the SharpPAD and the BESS tester. 

I measured sharpness after the SB/LW and again after the SharpPAD (SP) at three locations, near the base, in the middle and near the tip and averaged them. 

Leatherman:   SB/LW: 150   SP: 120
Good Cook:     SB/LW: 264  SP: 190
Kershaw:        SB/LW: 182   SP: 147

I'm really excited.  These are highly suitable results, especially for the simplicity of the setup/process.  They push cut copy paper like a whiz with only very minor hitches.  I am actually looking forward to tomorrow now.  I'm going to go finish getting organized and packed. 

I have to say, I think these jigs are the Queen Bees Knees!

Rick

[Ken S]

Rick,

Best of luck at the farmers market today! We will be with you in spirit.

There is an old saying that chance favors the prepared mind. You have certainly prepared. I like the combination of simplicity and precision that you have put into your jigs. I also think that your sharpening routine has evolved to a very practical level, allowing you to perform a very good job of sharpening in a time efficient manner.

Good work!

Ken

[cbwx34]

...snip...
So... SharpPad after Leather Wheel (instead of SJ wheel) results? (180 is better than what you're getting with the SJ wheel...).

(I really think swapping wheels is going to quickly become an issue if you get busy, is my point here).

CB, you're going to like this. 

So, my daughter convinced me to start at the Farmer's Market tomorrow!    I don't know what I was thinking.  I had not yet figured out what wheels and deburring/polishing process works for this type of sharpening.

But, I was in the middle of making those jigs, so I finished two more 14º and 12º for a set of four.  I think that should cover it for routine blades at a FM.  Anything else, I'll use CB's app. 

Switching to getting set up with a table and figure out where things should go and what the work flow should be, I sat down to try it out.  I decided to try using only the SB stone, Leather Wheel and the SharpPAD, just to see if that would work and avoid the stone/wheel changes. 

SHAAZAAMM!  I knocked out three knives, two that I carry (Leatherman Wave and a Kershaw) and a cheapo from a thrift store (Good Cook).  Using the 16º jig, I set up the SB and LW.  I did the Wave first followed by the Good Cood.  Then switched to the 18º jig, set the angles and did the Kershaw.  I blackened the bevels first and checked how well the angles matched before doing any grinding.  Two were off a bit, but I ran them as is.  Everything went very smoothly and quickly.  I only got out of my seat to shift over to use the SharpPAD and the BESS tester. 

I measured sharpness after the SB/LW and again after the SharpPAD (SP) at three locations, near the base, in the middle and near the tip and averaged them. 

Leatherman:   SB/LW: 150   SP: 120
Good Cook:     SB/LW: 264  SP: 190
Kershaw:        SB/LW: 182   SP: 147

I'm really excited.  These are highly suitable results, especially for the simplicity of the setup/process.  They push cut copy paper like a whiz with only very minor hitches.  I am actually looking forward to tomorrow now.  I'm going to go finish getting organized and packed. 

I have to say, I think these jigs are the Queen Bees Knees!

Rick

Cool.    Congrats... and good luck... although I don't think you'll need it, you'll do great. 👍 👍

Congratulations fellows! You have tied the longest thread containing 166 replies. That one was on 1/4" chisels. This reply carries it over that record.

That's pretty funny. 

(All I can say is... next time someone says, "to sharpen a knife, first sharpen a chisel"... I'm pointing them to that thread).

[RickKrung]

Rick,

Best of luck at the farmers market today! We will be with you in spirit.

There is an old saying that chance favors the prepared mind. You have certainly prepared. I like the combination of simplicity and precision that you have put into your jigs. I also think that your sharpening routine has evolved to a very practical level, allowing you to perform a very good job of sharpening in a time efficient manner.

Good work!

Ken

Thanks.  And I am amused that it brought me back to almost the original, stock Tormek system.  No fancy wheels and deburring/polishing schemes.  I am certain the SG wheel would do just as well if it were used. 

Rick

[RichColvin]

Rick,

As an IT manager, I live by the KISS methodology.  When we get too complicated, we're doomed to failure !  And quite frankly, I'm not smart enough to make it complicated.

That's why I am a huge fan of the Tormek tools :  someone else has figured out the details to make it easy for us.  And when it's easy, it gets used.  Dull tools are much more dangerous than sharp ones, and easy approaches to keeping them sharp are better for everyone.

You do know that once you hit $1,000,000, we are expecting that you will give-away of one of your pivot jigs  .

Kind regards,
Rich

[RickKrung]

...snip...
You do know that once you hit $1,000,000, we are expecting that you will give-away of one of your pivot jigs  .

Kind regards,
Rich

I'll be ready 

[cbwx34]

Thanks.  And I am amused that it brought me back to almost the original, stock Tormek system.  No fancy wheels and deburring/polishing schemes.  I am certain the SG wheel would do just as well if it were used. 

Rick

At some point though, may want to consider adding a ceramic rod (or other item mentioned earlier). 

Probably goes without saying... but post how it goes!

[RickKrung]

...snip...
At some point though, may want to consider adding a ceramic rod (or other item mentioned earlier). 

Probably goes without saying... but post how it goes!

Have one, will put it in the kit.  At what stage would you suggest it be used? 

Rick

[cbwx34]

...snip...
At some point though, may want to consider adding a ceramic rod (or other item mentioned earlier). 

Probably goes without saying... but post how it goes!

Have one, will put it in the kit.  At what stage would you suggest it be used? 

Rick

I use it after the main wheel, prior to the leather wheel, to debur the edge.  (And sometimes that's all I use to finish the edge).

Using it prior to the leather wheel, speeds up the sharpening time, allows the leather to refine the edge better, (and other reasons)... IMO.

[RickKrung]

(This is rather lengthy and is getting away from the topic of this thread, so I'm going to port this over to a new thread, once this is posted here and will insert the new thread link here.)
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3725.0

The Farmer's Market went really well yesterday.  I only sharpened five knives, four paying customers and a freebie for my daughter (a strange, unequal trapazoidal shaped veggie harvester [the knife, not my daughter, although she is a veggie harvester]).  I charged $5 per blade.  The low volume was to be expected as the availability of knife sharpening had only been announced the day before on the Market's Facebook page. 

The market is open 3-6:30pm Weds. and had never before had anyone sharpening anything.  It was very dead for the first hour, even for the other vendors (one berries, two veggies, one bakery and one fruit).  It really picked up for the other vendors after that.  While I only sharpened five knives at the market, there was a fair bit of interest by "passer-by"s and several asked "Oh, will you be here next week".  My booth was at one end, next to the berries, so someone had to actually notice me over there and take an interest. One worman brought with her two knives her husband had given to her to get sharpened.  Two others went home and brought back a knife.  I also came home with five knives and a pair of scissors to sharpen.  One of those five knives is quite interesting and will be very much a challenge, but more on that later and may deserve a thread of its own.  That knife was among three others in a large canvas folding wrap like chef's use for storing and transporting their knives.

The two brought by the woman were, an ancient bone-handled "Buck"-like folding knife and an even more ancient "traditional" hunting knife with a leather ring handle (I didn't take any photos).  Both were literally as dull as butter knives.  The folding knife scored an impressively dull 1940 BESS.  The hunting knife was extremely convex and thick, almost like an axe and had a "fuller" down it's length.  It was even duller than the folding knife, so much so, I didn't measure it. 

One of the "went home for" knives was a longer Farberware knife that was in decent shape, sharpened qickly and turned out my sharpest edge of the day from the basic treatment (see below).  The last knife was a shorter "custom" hunting knife the guy got from his grandfather, who received it as a gift from the maker, but it supposedly never had and edge on it.  They guy had tried to sharpen it, to no avail, but at least didn't really damage it. 

Generally, for all the other knives, I used the SB stone and/or DF250, ceramic rod (CR)(thanks CB), leather wheel (LW) and SharpPAD (SP).  The hunting knife seemed like it was going to take the most work, so I started with the DF wheel and finished as above.  The custom knife was so beautiful I wanted to do a nicer job, so I started with the DF250 wheel (DF) and used the SJ stone between between the SB and LW.  Specific combinations are listed below.

The angles on the folding, hunting and custom knives did not "measure" using my laser gionometer, so I had to "hunt" for the angles using black marker and my jigs.  I think they didn't measure because they were so dull and rounded that they difused the laser beam too widely.  I started with the shallowest angle that seemed right and set up the Tormek using whatever jig that was close.  If that was too shallow, adjusted with the next jig until I got as good a match
as I could and then sharpened.  They all ended up at 16º or 18º.

NUMBERS

I only measured three of the knives before sharpening, but for all the following measurements were taken during sharpening:  After grinding and after stropping: Three measurements were taken, near the base, in the middle and near the tip and averaged.  All measurements were taken using an Edge On Up PT50A which measures the force required to severe a standardized, certified media, in grams. 

Cabbage Lopper
SB/CR/HW        SP
    250               222

Bone Handle Folding  Before sharpening: 1940 gf
DF/CR/HW        SP
    365               215

Leather Handle
DF/SB/CR/HW  SP
    217              190

Farberware
SB/CR/HW       SP
    204              157

Custom
DF/SB/SJ/HW  SP
    289             169

For all knives, I did the paper push cut demonstration.  All still had a few "catches" except the Farberware.  But, all of the customers were VERY happy with the results and the lady that brought to two for her husband tipped an extra $5.

All in all, I think a very successful day and first attempt at a Farmer's Market.  It was fun, but I think when it gets busier in subsequent weeks it will become less so and more like work.  I anticipate "finishing" with the big event of it moving to a new location in mid-Sept. 

Oh Yikes, my daughter posted a photo on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/bakercityfarmersmarketor/?fb_dtsg_ag=AdzAgL5j1Mh_USnFWtnGynL79khBe9C3II3yOksiIL9tJQ%3AAdzJcYwf4Sg3kNDOC9ST1-vKzf7JZz5PPqoxky3Apy83nQ

[RickKrung]

...snip...
But, I was in the middle of making those jigs, so I finished two more 14º and 12º for a set of four.  I think that should cover it for routine blades at a FM. 

I have to say, I think these jigs are the Queen Bees Knees!
...snip...

Rick

These jigs were discussed in another thread and I posted drawings for the four that I made.  Cross posting those drawings here for completeness. 

Rick

[Jan]

Rick,

as a distant spiritual father, from a country over the pond, I am really happy to see your family of the setting jigs and to read that you find it cool. From your post I have learned the American slang phrase bees' knees. 

Jan

P.S.: It is nice to see you sharpening at FM.