First Farmer's Market

[RickKrung]

This is being ported from another thread so as to not "hijack" that thread.
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.165#lastPost

(This is rather lengthy and is getting away from the topic of this thread, so I'm going to port this over to a new thread, once this is posted here and will insert the new thread link here.)
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3725.0

The Farmer's Market went really well yesterday.  I only sharpened five knives, four paying customers and a freebie for my daughter (a strange, unequal trapezoidal shaped veggie harvester [the knife, not my daughter, although she is a veggie harvester]).  I charged $5 per blade.  The low volume was to be expected as the availability of knife sharpening had only been announced the day before on the Market's Facebook page. 

The market is open 3-6:30pm Weds. and had never before had anyone sharpening anything.  It was very dead for the first hour, even for the other vendors (one berries, two veggies, one bakery and one fruit).  It really picked up for the other vendors after that.  While I only sharpened five knives at the market, there was a fair bit of interest by "passer-by"s and several asked "Oh, will you be here next week".  My booth was at one end, next to the berries, so someone had to actually notice me over there and take an interest. One woman brought with her two knives her husband had given to her to get sharpened.  Two others went home and brought back a knife.  I also came home with five knives and a pair of scissors to sharpen.  One of those five knives is quite interesting and will be very much a challenge, but more on that later and may deserve a thread of its own.  That knife was among three others in a large canvas folding wrap like chef's use for storing and transporting their knives.

The two brought by the woman were, an ancient bone-handled "Buck"-like folding knife and an even more ancient "traditional" hunting knife with a leather ring handle (I didn't take any photos).  Both were literally as dull as butter knives.  The folding knife scored an impressively dull 1940 BESS.  The hunting knife was extremely convex and thick, almost like an axe and had a "fuller" down it's length.  It was even duller than the folding knife, so much so, I didn't measure it. 

One of the "went home for" knives was a longer Farberware knife that was in decent shape, sharpened quickly and turned out my sharpest edge of the day from the basic treatment (see below).  The last knife was a shorter "custom" hunting knife the guy got from his grandfather, who received it as a gift from the maker, but it supposedly never had and edge on it.  They guy had tried to sharpen it, to no avail, but at least didn't really damage it. 

Generally, for all the other knives, I used the SB stone and/or DF250, ceramic rod (CR)(thanks CB), leather wheel (LW) and SharpPAD (SP).  The hunting knife seemed like it was going to take the most work, so I started with the DF wheel and finished as above.  The custom knife was so beautiful I wanted to do a nicer job, so I started with the DF250 wheel (DF) and used the SJ stone between between the SB and LW.  Specific combinations are listed below.

The angles on the folding, hunting and custom knives did not "measure" using my laser gionometer, so I had to "hunt" for the angles using black marker and my jigs.  I think they didn't measure because they were so dull and rounded that they diffused the laser beam too widely.  I started with the shallowest angle that seemed right and set up the Tormek using whatever jig that was close.  If that was too shallow, adjusted with the next jig until I got as good a match
as I could and then sharpened.  They all ended up at 16º or 18º.

NUMBERS

I only measured three of the knives before sharpening, but for all the following measurements were taken during sharpening:  After grinding and after stropping: Three measurements were taken, near the base, in the middle and near the tip and averaged.  All measurements were taken using an Edge On Up PT50A which measures the force required to severe a standardized, certified media, in grams. 

Cabbage Lopper
SB/CR/HW        SP
    250               222

Bone Handle Folding  Before sharpening: 1940 gf
DF/CR/HW        SP
    365               215

Leather Handle
DF/SB/CR/HW  SP
    217              190

Farberware
SB/CR/HW       SP
    204              157

Custom
DF/SB/SJ/HW  SP
    289             169

For all knives, I did the paper push cut demonstration.  All still had a few "catches" except the Farberware.  But, all of the customers were VERY happy with the results and the lady that brought to two for her husband tipped an extra $5.

All in all, I think a very successful day and first attempt at a Farmer's Market.  It was fun, but I think when it gets busier in subsequent weeks it will become less so and more like work.  I anticipate "finishing" with the big event of it moving to a new location in mid-Sept. 

Rick

P.S. Oh Yikes, my daughter posted a photo on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/bakercityfarmersmarketor/?fb_dtsg_ag=AdzAgL5j1Mh_USnFWtnGynL79khBe9C3II3yOksiIL9tJQ%3AAdzJcYwf4Sg3kNDOC9ST1-vKzf7JZz5PPqoxky3Apy83nQ

Couple photos, after the fact.

Veggie Lopper


Chef's Knives (although the curved one is a bit out of character it seems to me).


Rick

[cbwx34]

Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

So, excluding lasers and BESS stuff, how long did the sharpening take?  (From clamping to done I guess).  And are you using the standard Stop Collar?

Glad it worked out! 

[RickKrung]

Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

Yes, those are chips and they are huge, for a knife apex.  I'm going to have to do a bit of research before tackling that one. 

So, excluding lasers and BESS stuff, how long did the sharpening take?  (From clamping to done I guess).  And are you using the standard Stop Collar?

Glad it worked out! 

Can't say for sure how long.  Too few regular knives (one) - only a few minutes for it.  Three took extra long, partly because of how dull they were and that may be more of a norm than unusual for the setting. 

Me too. 

Rick

[RickKrung]

Congrats!

That curved knife in your picture looks similar to the knife posted about the other day.  (And that Shun looks like it has some serious chips... which seems par for those knives... or maybe it's just the picture).

Yes, those are chips and they are huge, for a knife apex.  I'm going to have to do a bit of research before tackling that one. 

I left a message with the owner of the Shun, concerning my concerns.  She looked them up and they sharpen for free if shipping is paid for.  That is what she is going to do and I think she'll be much happier.  I know I will.  I have enough learning to do without tackling that one right now. 

As for that curved one, yes it does look like that other one.  I think I want to see if a much longer protrusion (to the extreme of the USB adjustment?) may more closely match the radius of the knife. 

Rick

[Ken S]

Well done, Rick.

I would suggest you make up a few (one sheet of paper cut into several pieces) contact information sheets for Shun as handouts for future Shun requests. Good researching find with the Shun info.

Ken

[RickKrung]

Good idea. I just looked it up and they do offer free sharpening, to a degree. There is a long list of what they "do not do" and chip and crack repair is one of them.  Maybe for a fee they do. If not, I may see that knife again. If so, I'll need to figure what it will take. I'm concerned that thinning may be part of it and I think I'm not able to do that yet. Clearly about 1/8" needs to be ground off the apex, which is when the thinning may be needed. Do those blades have only a single bevel or two?

Rick

[Crusty]

Shun knives are normally double bevel 8 deg per side.
It looks like the owner has been chopping bone or frozen food, Shun knives are very prone to this sort of damage if treated badly.
I would re-profile at 15 deg per side to make the edge a bit more robust

[cbwx34]

Shun knives are normally double bevel 8 deg per side.
It looks like the owner has been chopping bone or frozen food, Shun knives are very prone to this sort of damage if treated badly.
I would re-profile at 15 deg per side to make the edge a bit more robust

Shun claims 16° per side...

Shun's handcrafted Japanese knives are sharpened to a precise 16° angle on each side of the blade (for double-beveled blades, this means a comprehensive angle of 32°).

They also claim any chopping can chip the knife....

Without proper knife technique, micro chipping can be the downside of very hard stainless steel. A cook who is unfamiliar with the hardness of Japanese knives and is used to strongly chopping down with a knife against a cutting board, may indeed chip the knife. The damage will be even more pronounced when cutting against ceramic, glass or marble (please don't!). Micro chips in the blade edge can also occur if a spot of rust develops on the extremely thin edge, too.

The good news is that with a gliding cut, the proper cutting surface, and making sure the knife is thoroughly dry before storing, the chances of chipping are reduced enormously. What's more, micro chips can easily be sharpened out. Our Warranty Service Department will be happy to help you with that.

Of course, if there is a problem with the materials or manufacturing itself, we'll take care of that, too. Just send in your knife to our Warranty Service Department for evaluation.

... and a "slicing motion" should be used, (no chopping)...

Chips can happen due to improper cutting technique. Shun Cutlery is designed to be used in a smooth, slicing motion—and never in a forceful, up-and-down "chopping" manner.

The proper cutting motion is a "locomotive" motion, pushing the knife forward and down as you cut through the food, then pulling the knife up and back towards you (in order to position it for the next cut). This motion is also similar to cutting wood with a handsaw—forward and down, then back. The razor-sharp blade of your Shun makes this practically effortless.

When you first begin using a Shun, go slowly and enjoy the precision cutting ability of your new kitchen cutlery. As you gain experience, you will be able to work more quickly. No matter what your experience level, be careful and always pay attention to where your fingers are in relation to the knife.

(Might be worth printing some of this out, and/or guiding the customer to the above web page).

[Crusty]

I have sharpened Shun, I own some too, definitely not 16 per side.

[Ken S]

In the same way that auto racing has benefitted driving the family car, farmers market experience and development can benefit the average Tormek home sharpener. Good work!

Ken

[RickKrung]

From last week's initial Farmer's Market outing, the knives below were among those that came home with me for sharpening.  The Shun has been discussed and is not one I'll be sharpening, at least not yet.  The other three I tackled today. 

...snip...  I also came home with five knives and a pair of scissors to sharpen.  One of those five knives is quite interesting and will be very much a challenge, but more on that later and may deserve a thread of its own.  That knife was among three others in a large canvas folding wrap like chef's use for storing and transporting their knives.
...snip...

Chef's Knives (although the curved one is a bit out of character it seems to me).


Rick

The owner and I had discussed "toothy" edges and it was clear she liked them, so I thought I would attempt to do just that.  I decided to try using the DF250 diamond wheel, which is said to be 600 grit and just the leather honing wheel.  All three knives were sharpened at 16º and took quite a bit of grinding as they were quite dull.  In an attempt to retain the toothy-ness, I backed off the angle a little bit for honing, but I don't know just how much. I was using my recently built, single-angle ball bearing HanJig where the angle is set by adjusting the USB height until both sets of bearings rotate about the same amount.  To back off the angle, I adjusted the USB downward until the upper set of bearings rotated less.  I have not checked to see how much angle change that amounts to. 

I was able to set up all three knives in Tormek jigs and so worked through all on the DF set at 16º to get a detectable burr along the entire edge.  This took quite a bit on all three.  Then I set up the honing wheel as above and honed all three. I then measured sharpness using the EOU PT50A, measuring near the base, middle and tip, as before.  Previously, I only reported the averaged sharpness.  Today, I am reporting all three readings as there was quite a bit of variability and that resulted in me taking extra steps with the EOU Sharp Pad, and reporting all three readings and the average.  Two of the knives were Sabatier, a French brand.  The third, highly curved knife is labeled Lamson 32000 but I could find nothing about it.

Sabatier Carving/Chef 9-1/2"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       338          349       156
       186          151       123
       195          209       152
Ave. 240          236       143

Sabatier Filet 9-1/2"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       160          190       170
       143           68       141
       236          148       133
Ave. 180          135       148

Lamson 32000 6-3/4"
       DF/LW     SP-L    SP-P/L
       221          192       172
       208          137       165
       352          215        98
Ave. 260          181       145

Looking at the first two columns, DF/LW and SP-L (SP-L is for Sharp Pad Leather pad only), there was a general improvement from grinding/honing to further deburring with just the Sharp Pad leather pad, but there was quite a bit of variability between location on the blades, being lower in the middle compared to the near the base or tip.  This puzzled and troubled me as I was able to get a decent burr along the entire edge of all knives.  I thought that I must not have been getting the tips and base areas deburred as well.  That is why I re-treated all three using the polyethylene pad and then the leather pad of the Sharp Pad.  Resulting sharpness readings were far more consistent across locations and knives.  All three knives push cut copy paper and phone book paper much cleaner and more consistently also. 

I'm thinking I didn't get the blades adequately deburred with the honing such that further treatment with just the leather SP pad worked.  It took working the burrs further on the poly pad and then the leather pad to get rid of the burrs, even though a couple of the middle sections were less sharp afterward, the blades as a whole were more consistently sharp. 

I'm thinking I'll give this system a try at the Farmer's Market tomorrow, and possibly not back off the angle for honing.  I have no good sense of whether or not I achieved the toothy-ness I was after.  They look like they are.  But I do know that I am happy with how they turned out irrespective of whether they are toothy or not.  And I learned something.

Rick

[cbwx34]

I have sharpened Shun, I own some too, definitely not 16 per side.

I guessed that you saw 16° on the Shun website, and figured it was 8 dps (degrees per side), which is why I posted the "official" quote that addressed this.  It's a bit buried on their site.

Whether they actual achieve this is a different matter (probably depends on how they sharpen), but everything indicates that's what they strive for... for example some of their sharpening equipment is set for 16 dps.

On a different note... it was pointed out to me in an email that removing the chips will move the edge into thicker metal... this actually might help alleviate future chipping.  (The ultimate solution, at least from Shun though, seems to be a "relearning" of how to cut).

[RickKrung]

Yesterday was a total bust.  Not one single new customer.  The only one was the woman picking up her four knives, the three that I sharpened and the Shun.  I shared with her a drawing showing the Shun knife edge, as it was originally and what it would be like after chip repair and resharpening.  She talked excitedly about how nice it was to be able to slice so thinly with that knife before and didn't seem to register that it would be almost as thin once sharpened.


I determined the overall blade angle by two methods, one measuring with a digital protractor and the other by measuring the blade thickness near the bevel and at a measured distance back from the bevel.  Both came out at 6º.  I was astonished to find that the blade thickness at the bevel was 0.15mm (0.006").  No wonder there is so much chipping and damage.  I drew in the 16º per side bevel listed on the Shun web site. 

I also determined how much blade would have to be removed to repair the chips and again drew in the 16º per side bevel.  Blade thickness at that location would be about 0.25mm (0.010).  Still quite thin, but hopefully a bit sturdier. 

The woman was convinced Shun would sharpen/repair the blade for free, despite the chips and despite what it says on their web site about not doing that.  She was quite pleased with the edges on the other three knives.  I showed her a push cut of telephone book paper and she wiggled with glee and went away happy.

The other woman who had left a knife and a pair of scissors with me to sharpen is actually a fellow Halfway, OR resident and friend.  Last week she sent some plums, Asian pears and preserves to the market with my daughter.  I had delivered the knife and scissors to her house/husband the day before and he gave me two more knives to sharpen.  Yesterday, before my daughter and I departed for Market, they came by and dropped off another knife and scissors, saying I'd done such a good job on the first, she wanted all of hers sharpened.  I had the other two knives ready and she also left happy, so I guess the day wasn't a total bust. 

Rick

[stevebot]

The yellow handled knife is a lettuce knife.  Wait until you see a celery knife! It starts life as a 12" butcher knife, 2" of the tip is cut off and welded back at 90 deg, plus a 15 deg tilt.

[RickKrung]

Today was my fourth time at my daughter's Farmers Market and this was THE big event, where the Market changed location, had a band, a salsa competition and a taco feed.  They also recruited quite a few more vendors.  By comparison to the three previous week's Markets, this one was a smashing success. It took place at a new permanent location for them, a closed off half-block between the two major drags in downtown Baker City, OR.  They also advertised in the local newspaper, as did I separately for my knife sharpening. 

I sharpened 17 knives in 5 hours, 17.6 min. per knife.  That doesn't sound so good, but I feel really good about it.  ALL required re-establishing a basic bevel before actually sharpening them.  For that bevel creation, I used the 8" Norton 3X 80 grit grindstone that I got from Ken S.  That is what took so long, but that wasn't helped by having to change out knives between the knife jigs so much.  I have three jigs but I'm feeling like I need a couple more. 

I encountered my first knife that was thick enough that using the stock knife jig resulted in uneven bevels where I had to switch the knife back and forth in the jig to grind each side uniformly.  That was a pain and it made me wish I'd machined at least one jig for wider blades. 

Twelve of the knives were from a restaurant located a half a block away from the Market and they were lying in wait.  The Market had not even opened yet and one of the owners brings a box with these twelve chef's knives loose on the bottom.  One was of Damascus steel and that and one other he wanted sharpened at 12º and the others at 16º. 

All knives were sharpened to push cut telephone book paper.  The only one I measured, a pocket knife, was at 164 BESS.  The sharpening steps for most was first the Norton 3X, then the SB stone and leather wheel honing.  For the two at 12º I ran them over all three diamond wheels before leather wheel honing.  I did bring home a folding knife that has a large part of the tip missing which will take a lot of grinding off the back to get a new tip. 

A very good day.  I'm ready for setting up a belt sander to make faster work of re-establishing those bevels and the larger repairs. 

Rick