1/4" Bevel Edge Chisels

[kennyk]

After numerous attempts to sharpen over a dozen 1/4" Bevel Edge chisels,  it is now my considered opinion that the SE-76 jig is fundamentally flawed.

my experience has been that it is far easier to incorrectly mount the chisel  so that the back edge is not flush to the top of the jig than it is to mount it correctly.
Secondly, even with the knobs tightened it is very  easy to twist the chisel in the jig as well, as well as skewing it.

I have managed to get one chisel with a completely square edge, and that was more by luck.
If you can't guess,  I'm fairly fed up with my whole Tormek experience so far.  At this cost level the thing should work out of the box without all these issues.  Yes, the T-7 can get a razor sharp edge very fast, but I've had very poor success rate with getting the edge parallel.

The problem, in my experience, seems to stem from the instructions being far to vague to be meaningful.  There are far too many steps in the setup of the system where it is very easy to get the setup wrong and be completely unaware that it IS wrong.  And by the time I've got a skewed edge, it can be caused by a number of factors.  In my view, the videos on the accompanying DVD aren't much help - they concentrate too much on 'look how shiny a bevel we can get'.  What is needed are in-depth tutorials to point out the common user errors, rather than what is effectively Sales Pitch.

Sorry if this comes across as negative, but in addition to the 200 chisels, I've got somewhere in the region of 120 No 4 and No 5 Bench Plane blades to do as well and I can't afford to be wasting time trying to figure out why I'm getting consistently bad results.

[Dakotapix]

I concur that setting up very narrow blades in the SE-76 jig can be difficult. I think you'll find that the problem will not be so severe when sharpening two-inch plane blades. I keep a small square near my Tormek and check frequently for any out of squareness. A tap on the blade with a small hammer usually solves any problem.

I wonder if the jig could be improved by having a device that centers a blade in the jig so that you wouldn't have the uneven pressures that occur while tightening the screws on either side. For that I would reference the Veritas® Mk.II Honing Guide system. Centering the blade is the first step in setting up this jig for any blade.

[SharpenADullWitt]

I remembered seeing a comment about this in another subject (flattening tool backs), so I went looking.  (I am not sure I am comfortable flattening the back with the Tormek yet, and since my old method works....)
Anyway here was the thread: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1933.msg9831#msg9831
Herman Trivilino posted this link: http://tormek.com/media/100841/se76_factors_en.pdf which does deal some with small chisels.  I do remember the training stuff said to start with a 3/4" chisel to learn technique (and it is easier to see if out of square).
Otherwise, I still consider myself too new to chime in.


And thanks for the reminder (forgot to email Ken about the foot switch I read in that thread).

Edit, thanks, not sure why my link has those question marks.

[Herman Trivilino]

This is the link to that Tormek pdf describing the issues associated with getting a square edge with their SE-76 Square Edge jig:  http://tormek.com/media/100841/se76_factors_en.pdf

This jig has a predecessor, the SVH-60 Straight Edge jig, which is the one I use.

It is difficult to get a square edge with SVH-60 and from what I've seen on this forum, with the SE-76, too.

Kenny, your point about the Tormek instructions is well taken.  Many of us here share that sentiment.  At one point some of us tried to help in this regard by starting this thread, but for it to have its intended outcome we need more support from Tormek.  We're not getting it.  Tormek's presence on this forum is something, in my opinion, that they need to work on.

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1565.0

The fact is that successful results with the Tormek require practice.  If you think about it, the same is true of every tool in the shop from the lowly hammer to something as complex as the lathe.  I spent about 8 years between 1978 and 1990 working as a carpenter and to this day when I pick up a hammer and start using it the muscle memory kicks in and it becomes as natural as if it were an extension of my own arm. 

The SE-76 doesn't guarantee a square edge, despite the manufacturer's claims.  It takes practice and vigilance and that's something that's not explained in the "training videos".  As you said Kenny, they are geared towards sales to people who might buy a Tormek rather than to customers who have already bought one.

[Rob]

There is a solution.  Use a belt based sanding system.  They really do work out the box and they're so easy to setup there's pretty much no manual with the tool.  Imagine that?  There's a reasonable sized book with a Tormek!

There is a massive learning curve with a Tormek and I suspect that busy people who expect instant results (an expectation set by the exorbitant entry price and the marketing) are often very frustrated.

It is also true that with any decent workshop tool one would expect to be trained and develop their skill over time.  Perhaps if Tormek's marketing stopped setting the expectation that you'll have a mirror like bevel in minutes and instead used a concept called "the truth" their customers wouldn't experience such terminal buyers remorse within about 2 weeks of use.

Apologies for being a grumpy old man but my pet hate is bouncy bubbly shiny marketing people who: if brains were dynamite, wouldn't have enough to blow their hat off!

[RobinW]

Here's another grumpy old man!

Unless I am mistaken, I think I previous responded to one of your earlier postings about the SE-76.

I had great difficulty in the beginning, and like you I thought, as the sales video infers, bang a chisel in the jig and bingo! That is not the case. As per my postings somewhere else on this forum there are a few items which need to be understood before you get success.

Two knowledge issues I had were :-

a) Is the inside right hand edge of the SE-76 (against which you butt the side of the chisel) at 90 degrees to the front face, where you would place a square to see if the chisel is at 90 degrees to the SE-76. That goes out the window as the front face (certainly on my SE-76) was not machined, and was rough from the casting. I actually dressed mine up.

b) How do I prove that the inside right hand edge of the SE-76 (against which you butt the side of the chisel) is at 90 degrees to the centre line through the mounting holes. If that is not the case then I would not expect to get anything ground square. I cannot prove that one, so you just have to assume that the machined inside edge is at 90 degrees to the line through the jig hole centres.

Some problems experienced in using the SE-76:-

i) If there is any non-linearity along the edge of your chisel, then there will be an angular error from where the chisel fits in the SE-76 to the cutting edge of the chisel, and this will give rise to a problem.

Think of a bicycle wheel. A small angular change at the hub has the same angular change at the rim, but the distance travelled at the rim is far greater. The surface of the grinding wheel is like the tangent to the rim. So any small mis-alignment of the chisel at the SE-76 is greatly magnified at the end of the chisel and this shows as cock-eyed sharpening.

ii) Another effect - particularly with narrow chisels - is angular error in the other plane ie if the chisel twists in the jig.

If the chisel twists in the clamp, because the chisel has a narrow back, then an angular error is induced ie the flat back of the chisel is no longer parallel to the surface of the grinding wheel. This again results in cock-eyed grinding.

iii) There may be a permanent twist, however small, in the chisel along its length. This again means that where it is clamped in the SE-76 is a different plane to that where it meets the wheel. I have one old chisel that is very pronounced in this respect, and I just live with it.

iv) You can of course have all of the problems above  simultaneously!

How to get round these issues:-

A) I do not flatten the back of my blades or chisels on the side of the Tormek wheel - I don't feel in control enough. I have flattened them all (the last inch or so) on Japanese water stones and went through finer grits, and then polished the backs up on the Tormek leather honing wheel. After this I do not expect to touch the backs again for some time.

B) When I mount a chisel in the SE-76 (or indeed any blade), I butt it up against the right hand reference edge, and lightly tighten the clamping screws. Against the light, I then look at the blade end on to see if it sitting flush with the reference edge and also if the back of the blade is flush to the clamp. If not, loosen clamps, move around and re-tighten until flush. Do not overtighten clamps.

As an extreme example, try using the clamping screws way out of alignment so that the clamp only holds the bevel edge of the chisel at one corner and see the light gaps and distortion you can induce.

C) Assuming that the wheel has been trued up with the diamond truing tool, and when the universal support bar (USB) is hovering just above the wheel, eyeball the gap and check that the USB and wheel surface are parallel. Then set the USB, SE-76, angle setting jig and get the chisel ready for grinding.

D) Now the important part. Mark the area of the blade which is to be ground with a felt tip marker. (Sharpie is a trade name in the USA.) This is the most useful 'tool' you can have.

Start the machine and take a couple of strokes across the blade. Do not press hard down. Then check the shiny area of the blade where the marker pen has been rubbed off. This will straight away show whether the resulting grind is going to give you the right answer. I used to be almost paranoid about using a square across the end of the chisel, but with practice I now just eyeball it.

Do not get confused with a previously cock-eyed grind making your new grind look misaligned. Check with a square as required.

If the new grind appears squint, re-apply marker pen, and take another couple of strokes whilst applying an increased pressure to one side or the other and check if that has improved the situation, or going the wrong way. If slight pressure increase on one side of the blade does not give the desired result, slightly release the clamp, adjust the angle of the blade in the SE-76, and re-tighten. I have found that apart from finger pressure, changing the pressure from one of the clamp screws can sometime change the outcome.

Keep applying marker pen and checking progress frequently. I find now that I can generally correct my grinding with pressure changes.

Do not rush at this. Ge the alignment issues solved first. Sense it through the fingers.

When I am getting the desired grind, I re-grade the wheel for a finer grind, still applying marker pen all the way, and then move to the honing wheel.

If I have a burr on the edge when grinding, I either gently take it off using the back of the chisel on the honing wheel (freehand) with the chisel still in the SE-76, or a rub on a fine water stone. Take care not to polish up a micro-bevel on the chisel back, not so important on a plane blade.

When I have honed up the bevel on the leather wheel, I have gloss surface, and when the chisels have been in use, I generally just re-hone them. Re-grinding on the wheel is now infrequent.

Trust this helps - but the marker pen is your best friend.

[Rob]

That was a ruddy good post. Nice one Robin.  By the way Tormek marketing.....that's called "the truth".  You ought to try it every now and then.

[Ken S]

We have here a multifaceted situation which won't be resolved with a short post.

First of all, for those of you who might not realize it, Sweden is on a  national holiday period until August 4.  So is Denmark.  Such a long national period of vacation is unknown on this side of the pond.  However, we should not realistically expect any response from Tormek AB until the work force returns in August.  I would not expect to hear back from a US firm on the ourth of July; so it is in Sweden.

I hope we will have some input from Sweden within a reasonable time of returninb to work.  Like any quality business in the manufacturing industry, Tormek must have quality standards.  For example: the squareness of the registration fence of the SE-76.  "Perfectly square" is not part of the vocabulary of the machine tool industry.  "Within tolerance" is the correct term.  It is not realistic or necessary to expect the fence to be at exactly ninety degrees.  It would be interesting to know what the Tormek  quality specification is.  My guess is that the spec is within some fraction of one degree, expressed as + or - so many minutes or seconds of arc.  I would be curious to know the exact factory tolerance.

A 1/4" chisel is not an easy tool to grind precisely.  Most chisels are bevel edged to fit in more tightly for things like cutting dovetails.  As such, while the back of the chisel is a quarter inch wide, the top is much more narrow.  This is the reason the earlier jig was redesigned as the SE-76.  It registers off the wider back of the chisel. It is a very logical change in design.

Whether cutting wood or being ground, the small size of a narrow chisel means the same applied pressure translates into more force per square inch. It should be sharpened with a lighter touch. As such a narrow chisel is often ground to a more obtuse angle.  A two inch chisel might perform very well at twenty degrees where a narrow chisel might need thirty to maintain the edge as long.  As I said, this is a multifaceted situation.

This situation reminds me of helping my young granddaughter practice the piano.  She is working on the Cat Theme from Peter and the Wolf.  The piece, while not long, has difficult rhythms and note progressions.  We finally achieved success by practicing just the last measure.  Once that was mastered we practiced the last two measures.  The piece is ten measures long.  It is actully the first five measures repeated.  Once she could play measures six through ten, she could play all ten measures.

Kenny, I believe a change in mind set would help.  I would suggest starting with the wider chisels.  They are easier to grind,as they have more bearing surface.  The other mindset is to forget the last 199 chisels.  Use the first chisel, 3/4" recommended as in the second thread.  Spend whatever time is necessary to make that one chisel acceptably sharp.  Learn from the process.

Once that first chisel is "within your tolerance", move on to the next chisel.  I realize you have 200 chisels to sharpen.  However, once you become fluent with the first chisel, the rest will take progressively less time.  Make every 3/4" chisel sharp.  Then every wider chisel sharp.  Save the narrower chisels until you have that much successful practice. 

Using the black marker and square should be part of your standard routine.  I use a Starrett solid square.  I don't remember Starrett's tolerance standard off the top of my head.  I believe it is something like + or - .0001" over the length of the blade.  As I recall Starrett's standard is tighter than the British Military Standard. (different standards for different applications). Whatever it is, it far exceeds the degree of squareness necessary for a wood chisel, just as the degree of sharpness necessary for a surgeon's scalpel exceeds the need for one cutting dovetails or inletting a hinge.

Kenny and Robin,have you measured the angle of the edges you have sharpened on your chisels? I think we need to separate quality standards into functional squareness and for lack of a better term "vanity" squareness.  I know we take pride in delivering a "perfectly" square edge.  This is not a bad thing.  Would a sharp chisel whose edge is a degree off square still cut an acceptable dovetail?

To Herman, our resident former carpenter:  If the head weight of your "sixteen ounce" hammer would gain or lose an ounce, would it still be functional?

I am not condoning sloppy work. I do believe in proficienty developing from careful, methodical practice.  Kenny, asuming your sharpening need is ongoing, I would expect the 200 chisels you sharpen next year to be done in a more workmanlike manner than those you sharpen this year, and probably less so than those you sharpen three years from now.  I would expect your initial work to be "within tolerance"" and well done.  I believe experience will tighten up the meaning of "within tolerance".

I totally agree that the training videos are designed to support the marketing department.  Tormek is not alone in this; it is the way of business.  There is room to grow.  There is a company need to assist new hands it becoming skilled hands.  Skilled hands will help sell more units.  Frustrated hands will not. I was fortunate in being introduced to the Tormek by Ernie Conover, a woodworking teacher I have known and respected for many years.  Those less fortunate will have their initial exposure on this forum.  This forum can be a valuable learning experience.  For the curious potential buyer, all the dirty laundry is here to be read.  As with any tool, there is a learning curve with the Tormek. The difficulty of this learning curve could be reduced with more specific training material. With better videos, the frustration vented on this forum would lessen.  That would not hurt the marketing department. 

Kenny, do keep us posted with your odyssey.  Robin, your thoughtful posts are much appreciated. Herman, your carpenter background adds to the forum.  Let's keep moving forward.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

The difficulty of this learning curve could be reduced with more specific training material. With better videos, the frustration vented on this forum would lessen.  That would not hurt the marketing department. 

I agree completely.  Implicit in your sentiment is the issue of customer expectations.

When you watch the SE-76 video:

http://tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/se-76-square-edge-jig/

you hear this sentence spoken: "The jig automatically lines up the chisel to its upper, flat side so the tool always mounts correctly and grinds at 90°."

In my opinion claims like this are at best misleading and at worst cause new Tormek owners to be disappointed in their recent purchase.  It always mounts at 90° but it doesn't always grind at 90°.

I wonder if at least part of this expectation is cultural.  I haven't spent any time in Scandinavia but can easily see how a cultural difference, however small, could make a significant difference in the expectations created by advertising.

And let's face it, this issue is all about expectations created by advertising.

[Tormek moderator]

This issue has been around for as long as I've been around Tormek.

First, in defense of the company and the marketing department, their degree of exaggeration pales in comparison to just about any other consumer product made anywhere in the world.

If every eventual pitfall were discussed, the instructional videos or books would have to be 10 hours or 1000 pages. Further, in these days when published material appears everywhere, if a video were produced specifically for owners, it would be a matter of hours before that material would be made available to the broader market, potentially scaring off future customers.

Let's compare sharpening a square edge on a Tormek to hand cutting dovetails. You get a set of outrageously expensive chisels and an equally high-priced fine toothed saw (or two), read a book (or two) and start. Unless you're a far better hand with saw and chisel than I am, your first joint will be somewhat comical. In fact, I would go so far as to say your first dozen joints might be less than optimal. Are you going to blame your chisels and saws? I bet not.

Straying from the company line, I personally prefer the original SVH-60. It was much, much easier to screw up with it, but it also had some "tweakability". You could roll the tool in the jig slightly simply by torquing down on one side of the clamp and backing off the other. However, no matter how many times that was explained, customers demanded a more accurate and less variable design. Thus the SE-76 was developed. Referencing from the flat face of the tool, rather than from the beveled back gives a much less variable clamp, however it demands that every other variable be just as accurate. The tool faces have to be perfectly parallel. The grindstone has to be perfectly parallel to the Universal Support. And, the reference edge has to be perfectly straight. Also, the finish of the grindstone has to be perfectly uniform.

If I were guessing what Kenny's problem is, my first guess would be that the tool is squirming away from the reference as he tightens the clamp. I know that's the thing that happens to me the most. Also, with very narrow chisels you can roll the tool in the clamp if you don't bring the clamp down evenly...a little bit makes a big difference, as someone mentioned earlier.

The answer has already been brought up, you have to monitor the edge as you're grinding. Check it, if it is out a tiny bit, apply a little extra pressure concentrated on the long point. If it is a lot, run the short point off the edge of the grindstone, leaving only the long point on, then blend it back into a straight line.

[tdacon]

I use the SE-76 for chisel sharpening and have experienced similar problems with my narrow chisels (1/4" or smaller). In my view, the problem seems to be caused by the narrow gutter that's cast into the lower part of the jig, right over against the squaring boss. The chisel "tips over" slightly into that gutter, causing the chisel to be sharpened on an angle. My current solution is to either use the SVH-60 for narrow chisels, or just move the chisel over a short distance away from the SE-76's gutter and square it up with a small machinist's square. In either case, problem solved.

Of course, problem solved actually means also truing up the stone to get the face of it parallel to the bar. If you don't do that, no amount of screwing around with the jig will get you the square edge on the chisel that you're after. With that done, the SE-76 works a treat for me for everything except the narrowest chisels, as I mentioned above.

For wider chisels I have had no problems whatsoever with the SE-76, except for what must be the common problem of sharpening butt chisels or those that have been sharpened down to where there's not enough chisel left to get the angle you want. Since my butt chisels tend to be beater chisels anyway - I keep a handful of them in my boat-work tool bag just for risky business, but I start out the season with them razor sharp anyway - I just go ahead and sharpen them to whatever angle I can get out of the jig: 30 degrees if I'm lucky, 35 if I'm not. Often I can position the jig so that the knuckle at the bottom lies outside the stone and I can move the bar in pretty close.

What I plan to do with the SE-76 is fill that gutter with JB-Weld and then flatten the filler and true it up with a plane float or a fine-toothed file, while trying to not screw up the otherwise flat part of the lower section of the jig. The reason I'm here today, in fact, is to see if anyone's said anything about that gutter to explain why it's there. If I don't hear any objections to this strategy I'm going to go ahead with it, and then report back on how well it worked.

Tom

[Herman Trivilino]

If every eventual pitfall were discussed, the instructional videos or books would have to be 10 hours or 1000 pages.

This particular pitfall is far more common than any of the others.  Perhaps because the SE-76 is provided with every Tormek people tend to think it's somehow more basic or common than the other jigs and are disappointed when it doesn't perform as advertised.  I agree with you when you make the analogy with other skills like cutting dovetails. 

The fact is that we see a lot of customer complaints on this forum concerning this particular issue.  More than any other.  That's not been disputed.  Perhaps marketing could address this by simply adding the phrase "with practice" to their claims.

"The jig automatically lines up the chisel to its upper, flat side so the tool always mounts correctly and with practice grinds at 90°."

There's nothing wrong with honesty in advertising.  When done properly it has a positive impact on sales, and when ignored can have the opposite effect.

[RobinW]

We haven't had any response from kennyk - so it would be interesting to hear if he has made any progress, which is the real crunch for this topic. Also if he could say where he lives in case he is near someone who could help him.

I am not trying to cause an argument with the following remarks, I am trying to be fair and reasonable, and hopefully, helpful.

After a very long time of deliberating whether I could justify the expense or not, I bought the T7 (plus the wood turner's kit) primarily for chisel and plane blade sharpening.

My initial expectations with the SE-76 were not met (see previous posts) - nothing like the videos. However I stuck at it and finally became pretty proficient. I was disappointed that for the financial outlay I had to spend so much time getting up the learning curve with this one jig.

Prior to buying the T7 I was pretty good at sharpening chisels and plane blades, but having watched the videos I could see a more consistent level could be achieved in a shorter time, and one which would save further wear and tear on my finger joints from hundreds of hours using waterstones.

If I had been forewarned, with a brief statement in the videos that errors could be introduced due to discrepancies from non-linearity of blade sides; uneven clamp pressures; user issues etc, then I may have been more astute from the outset.

In the SE-76 video, as linked by Hermann above, the presenter states that the chisel should be put against the straight shoulder of the jig and the clamps tightened. He then states "A square positioning in the jig is an essential pre-requisite to get a square edge when sharpening". He then uses a small engineer's square.

Is he checking that the chisel edge is square to the side of the chisel, or my original interpretation that he was checking it to the front face of the jig.

This was one of the problems I had in my understanding:-

Which is the reference to achieve square edge sharpening?

The straight edge inside the jig, or an un-machined (pretty rough) front face of the jig?

There's a conflict straight away.

Another comment by Forum Moderator Jeff (who has probably sharpened more chisels than the rest of us combined) thinks that kennyk's problem is "the tool is squirming away from the reference as he tightens the clamp."

My question, considering my remark above, is - What reference?

I don't think it would be detrimental for Tormek sales - in fact I think it would be distinctly advantageous - if they had an additional video where some of the typical problems experienced by SE-76 users are addressed and demonstrated how they can be overcome. (How many tips have you picked up watching other videos on youtube?) This comes under the category of helping their customers. Note this is not saying that the SE-76 is deficient, it is addressing user problems and induced errors.

An earlier post above referred to attempts at making dovetail joints. There are many ways to address such joints, and there is a plethora of videos, magazine articles and books showing how each writer illustrates their preferred method. However, how many spend a little time demonstrating common problems and how to work round these issues? I don't think that the dovetail reference is a particularly appropriate comparison for the SE-76 issues, because it is a free hand sawing and chiselling exercise, and I haven't shelled out £700 ($1200) for a dovetail guide!

If you are trained by, or work with a good cabinet maker, (or indeed any type or craft or other line of work) he will pick up why your dovetails are poor and how to correct the errors. I had some very good instruction from a skilled cabinet maker and loads of points just to saw a straight line, and how to correct my problems.

A very good point was made by a surgeon lecturer at medical school. You can't just sit down with books and then start operating on someone - you have to be shown what really goes on, what to do, and what to expect. It's called experience.

Likewise when in a previous life and I was training ship or offshore personnel in our systems, after covering the 'how it should work' I always tried to spend as much time as possible covering and practising scenarios of what to do when things didn't work. What is the most useful part of the course?

There is a Proverb, which was painted in a prominent position in my old high school assembly hall:-

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding

How true for the SE-76.

I did post sometime ago a jig I had developed for use with the SE-76, complete with manufacturing drawing. I was surprised that there was no feedback or interest from Tormek.

Since my comments posted (# 5) above, I have dreamed up a modification for the SE-76 which I expect to overcome a lot of the issues with this jig. Just need some time to go and experiment. It would be even handier if I had a mechanical machine show. I'll let you know.

Despite all of the above, I'm glad I have my T7.

[Ken S]

Excellent posts, gentlemen.

Ken

[Rob]

well you've all managed to talk yourselves round to feeling justified with the T7 :-)

I will say one thing about the uncanny skill in product positioning with a premium price.  Customers value the goods accordingly higher and are prepared to put inordinate amounts of time into fixing the foibles to justify the price tag.  Anything to avoid the dreaded thought "oops made a mistake with that"!

The comparison between Tormek and hand sharpening aren't really comparing apples with apples because once you've gone "machine" and left the stones behind then your genuine comparison is with other "machines".

I have had the luxury of trying different "machines" which is why I'm so adamant that the age of the wet grinder is almost certainly drawing to a close.  It wont go in a week or a year but there are innovations out there which cost half the price and get the job done in a FRACTION of the time without having to invest a weekend in trial and error learning.

In business, its an exceptionally Darwinian environment where only the fittest survive long term.  The primary drivers for business fitness are cost and functional fit for purpose.  Regrettable from a nostalgic perspective perhaps but the Tormek way of doing things is a dinosaur that just doesn't yet know it.

Perhaps it will survive by specialsing