Not convinced on T-7

[tedn1]

Hi All,

I'm not really convinced that the T-7 was worth the extra 200 dollars. I'm not sure what you're really getting for your money with the upgrade from the T-3 to the T-7. The only difference seems to be the 10mm on the grinding stone, which I thought made a difference at first so that you could sharpen an entire planing iron, but now that I realize that you move the planing iron back and forth on the wheel with the jig, it makes it kind of a moot point.

The Highland Woodworking site led me to the (false) conclusion that various jigs came with the T-7, but they do not:
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/tormekt-7grinder.aspx

Also, I wasn't impressed with the plastic knobs and the plastic water housing. I would have thought for 700 dollars, all those pieces would have been made with metal. Also, I wasn't impressed with the plastic on the honing wheel. This is something I would have expected on the 400 dollar model, but I expect higher quality parts on a tool that costs 700 dollars. Obviously, if you're willing to go the extra mile and spend 200 more dollars, Tormek should meet you in the middle, and provide quality, long lasting metal parts. Especially if they are not including any extra jigs for that price.

I'm contemplating returning the T-7 and getting the T-3. Is there any reason NOT to do this?

Thanks,
Ted

[Mike Fairleigh]

Respectfully, it seems your mind is made up, so I'm not sure what anyone could say that would change it.

Personally I think metal and (good quality) plastic are both appropriate for different uses.

If the trough were made of stainless steel, it would scrape the paint off around the mounting lugs on the frame and create two spots for rust to start.  I'd rather have plastic there, unless the frame were stainless also.

For the plastic parts you named, what part of them are you concerned with failure?

I don't think you'll find much argument about it being an expensive machine, though.

[Herman Trivilino]

Certainly the machine could be made better, but at what cost? This is true of any product. Think of it as an engineering project, it has to made well enough to work for the purpose intended, but if it were made better than that it's wasted time, effort and money.

I've had my plastic honing wheel for 11 years. It outlasted the grindstone. It'll probably outlast the leather!

Same is true of the plastic water trough.

How were you were misled by that Highland website? The first sentence in the third paragraph states that the jigs are optional.

I have nothing invested in Tormek and am in no way affiliated with them. I would guess, though, that if you're unhappy with the quality of the T-7, you'll be even more disappointed in the T-3. There are plenty of more expensive sharpening systems out there. I went with Tormek because years ago I saw Norm build that stand on his show, and then when I saw it again in reruns I decided I'd waited long enough. That was 2002.

The machine is still running. The only parts I've had to replace are the mainshaft and the grindstone. Your newer T-7 has a stainless steel mainshaft so it won't rust like mine did.

[Jeff Farris]

I'm contemplating returning the T-7 and getting the T-3. Is there any reason NOT to do this?

Thanks,
Ted

In another thread you talked about gouges for violin making. If that is your main focus, a T-3 may suffice. But, be aware that the T-3 comes with fewer accessories than the T-7. Specifically, you will not get the truing tool and the stone grader, both items I would not be without.

The build quality of the T-3 is not the same as the T-7. It has a plastic frame and a significantly smaller motor. If you're disappointed with the amount of plastic on a T-7, you won't be happy with the T-3.

As for your concerns, I'm going to say that you really don't want the water tray to be anything other than plastic. It takes a real beating from steel particles and sloughed off abrasive. A steel tray would not last as long as the non-reactive plastic. As for the knobs, I prefer the feel of a plastic knob when making adjustments, but maybe that's a personal preference. As Herman wrote, I have never, in nearly 20 years of working with the machine, witnessed a problem with the plastic hub of the honing wheel -- except a few where the machine fell off a bench, and then a broken honing wheel was the least of the problems.

[Rob]

For something so bad Ted it sure has a lot of other manufacturers copying its design! ( but with inferior parts)

My advice would be to spend a few months letting it settle while you use it and come to appreciate how just downright useful it is. If you're still not convinced after a while, the second hand market is sufficiently buoyant for you to recoup most of your cost

Like Herman, I am just a customer, nothing vested in Tormek.  If you keep it, and use it, I have little doubt the issues you perceive as problems today will fade and be replaced by a growing value that gets built with every tool you sharpen. That's the way it is with all good tools. After time and use, the respect builds until they're an old friend, indispensable.

You're not even on your own, this forum is a really useful resource for all manner of sharpening questions. The combined experience of the contributors runs into hundreds of years. When you buy into Tormek its far more than a tool purchase, you're joining a community of positive enthusiasts whose advice and knowledge really boosts your confidence when the manual falls short or you're in a tricky situation.

Rob

[tedn1]

Hi All,

Thanks for all of this advice. OK, maybe I will stick with the T-7. I don't have the hands-on experience that all of you have, so it's good to hear all of your comments. My first comment was just my initial reaction to opening the package. I have not plugged it in, watched the DVD, sharpened a tool with it or any of those things. I will probably end up coming to the same conclusions that all of you have. That the plastic was probably a good choice of material because it prevents rusting, ect. I don't have the hands-on experience with the tool yet, so it's good to hear yours.

Thanks all,
Ted

[Rob]

Good man Ted. I'm certain you won't regret it. Check here often for any issues it really is a fabulous knowledge resource.

The jigs and techniques take some patience to skill up but if you're an instrument maker doubt you'll have much trouble. I have a guitar luthier friend and I've never seen so many jigs as in his workshop.

This is the place to come when the dvd's and books don't solve the problem or if you want to do something a bit "off piste". There are people in this forum that have forgotten more about sharpening than Ill ever know!

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Ted.

In realizing that you do not have the hands on experience (yet) with the Tormek, you have made a giant step closer to your goal.

Our culture encourages the misnomer that throwing money at something will bring instant skill.  We are all victims of this cruel hoax.  In our "self taught" era, we have forgotten the value of apprenticeships and long periods of study and work.

Years ago I attended the Leica School.  The training was excellent; the instructors retired Navy photographic instructors who really knew their stuff.  It was like studying driving at the Ferrari factory.

Leica made a premier 35mm enlarger at the time.  The engineering and build were absolutely first-rate, as one would expect of Leitz.  This world class enlarger had a diffusing chamber of styrofoam, which closely resembled a coffee cup.  Chincy?  Not really.  The engineers discovered that styrofoam worked better than any other material.

I don't believe most of us on this forum, myself, have achieved a level of skill where the Tormek is the constraint.  Another thing to consider, is that the Tormek itself is evolving.  I bought my first Tormek in 2009, and bought a second unit after the first one was stolen.  In that short period, the second unit included the new EZYlock shaft (a real convenience); the improved water trough; and the revolving base.  Added to the lineup was the drill it jig and T3 were added.  Not bad.  I look forward to seeing what new ideas come from Sweden.

I have never used a T3.  I'm sure it is a nice machine.  I also believe the T7 flagship model is preferable for most people.

Patience, good luck, and keep us posted.

Ken

[tedn1]

Yes. I'm beginning to learn the value of an apprenticeship vs teaching yourself. I began violin making thinking that I could simply pick up a book and pull myself up by my boot straps. Well, it was a good start at least.    But you gain things that you can't gain from a book in an apprenticeship. That's something I'm beginning to realize now. I think it's OK to realize that at this point, because if I had an apprenticeship from the get-go, I wouldn't have appreciated it as much.

Sorry to hear that your machine was stolen. That's a real bummer.

[Mike Fairleigh]

My hat is off to the luthiers of the world, especially those making violins.  Talk about a dark art.  I would LOVE to work in some sort of instrument building or repair.

[Rob]

I agree. I've been manipulating wood for nearly 40 years, sometimes assembling it into houses, sometimes furniture and sometimes turnings.

In my view there are two branches of wood working that are the "high ground", instrument making is one and ship building the other. Both seem capable of bending, finishing, shaping wood in ways that defy reason and certainly defy the rules of grain!

I've done a little of both myself (helping friends) and have huge respect for the skills needed

You've never seen a proper wooden jig till you've been inside a luthiers shop believe me

[Jeff Farris]

...there are two branches of wood working that are the "high ground", instrument making is one and ship building the other. ...

Completely agree and might add pattern makers, who are the most over-looked woodworkers around.

With regard to boat building, how can something be completely straight and square, yet not have a straight line anywhere aboard? I love walking around and on well-crafted wooden vessels of all kinds...power, sail or people powered.

[Rob]

We recently took the kids to see HMS Victory (we live in England).  This was the flagship of the British Navy that beat the Spanish Armada in 1588. It's hull and structure are all made from old English oak. Some of the beams are of a breathtaking size.

We were lucky enough to see where the ships carpenter had his workshop. It was deep in the bowels of the vessel and you couldn't even stand up the headroom was so low. The tools were the rudimentary wooden planes, draw knives etc.  Part of his job was to repair parts of the hull or rigging after cannon fire damage!!  With no power! While at sea! By candle lamp light.  Can you imagine how much skill those shipwrights had.

Funnily enough HMS Victory is still a Commissioned Naval vessel ie its funded out of budgets intended for ships still in service. Apparently it was the only way the Navy could fund its maintenance. So she might just take to the seas at any moment if some despot mis behaves :-)

[Jeff Farris]

We recently took the kids to see HMS Victory (we live in England).  This was the flagship of the British Navy that beat the Spanish Armada in 1588. It's hull and structure are all made from old English oak. Some of the beams are of a breathtaking size.

We were lucky enough to see where the ships carpenter had his workshop. It was deep in the bowels of the vessel and you couldn't even stand up the headroom was so low. The tools were the rudimentary wooden planes, draw knives etc.  Part of his job was to repair parts of the hull or rigging after cannon fire damage!!  With no power! While at sea! By candle lamp light.  Can you imagine how much skill those shipwrights had.

Funnily enough HMS Victory is still a Commissioned Naval vessel ie its funded out of budgets intended for ships still in service. Apparently it was the only way the Navy could fund its maintenance. So she might just take to the seas at any moment if some despot mis behaves :-)

This thread has officially gone completely off topic...

Have by any chance read the Patrick O'Brian novels about the Jack Aubrey, the fictional English sea captain during the Napoleonic wars? The first was titled Master and Commander and that name is sometimes applied to the whole series. There are several quite intriguing chapters throughout the series describing the work being done after a grueling sea battle.

[Rob]

I haven't Jeff. Was it those books that the Russell Crowe movie was based on?  I recall seeing that move in which, surprise surprise, no carpenters made any appearances.

You're right though this is now hideously off topic. However Ted will doubtless appreciate the profound wit and sophistication of this illustrious forum......