Sharpen workflow for ‘mid-range’ knive

[WimSpi]

High-quality knives are not for everyone. Nevertheless, I want to sharpen knives for these people too, and I am looking for a good workflow that suits this purpose. (So we are not talking about knives at the very bottom of the market, which are almost impossible to get sharp.)

(1) What is a common cutting angle for sharpening kitchen knives, paring knives, etc.?
(2) What does a good sharpening workflow look like? I have diamond discs from Tormel, an HR felt wheel, and a leather wheel (all 250 mm).
(3) Other useful tips for achieving a reasonably sharp knife within a certain amount of time.

So this is not about the well-known (top) brands, but about people who use 'mid-range' products. I would also like to sharpen knives for these people.

I am curious to hear your answers.

Wim

[tgbto]

Hello WimSpi,

I don't use my diamonds wheels for knives much, but after a bit of experimenting with grading the SG or not, using the SJ or not, I settled with the following simple process for everything but very high end kitchen knives  :

Sharpen @15dps on ungraded SG, hone thoroughly @15.5dps on leather wheel with PA-70 compound starting on the same side as the last stroke on SG.

If you have diamond wheels and a 250mm leather honing wheel I'd suggest : Sharpen @15dps edge leading on DF wheel, then hone edge trailing on leather with PA-70, using MB-102 or FVB, increasing the USB height by a half turn of the MicroAdjust nut. This should be a rather quick workflow, maybe not with the smoothest-looking edge, but with pretty decent cutting performance and edge retention.

[Rossy]

I am still working on my workflow but with the help of people here and extensive research on many sites, my current workflow is as follows:

Unless requested by the customer, I use the marker method for the angle, if the customer want it reprofiled, I choose 15 degrees.

I use the DF250 diamond wheel and I have to say, It gives a great edge/finish

I always failed at free hand honing but once I bought the MB102 and used it to recreate the sharpening angle for honing, not only do my knifes fell sharper and cut better but my customers seem to be very happy and I am getting great feedback. I also use the composite wheel.

I currently do not sharpen high-end knives and would have to rethink my workflow for that but up to now, my clients seem very happy.

[WimSpi]

Thank you for your answers. That's very helpful. For me, it's also important to be able to carry out this type of grinding work at a reasonable pace. I also think standardization (reducing variation and making processes repeatable) is important in this regard.

Any further tips are very welcome.

[Ken S]

Wim,

You ask a very practical question. In the real world, I suspect most of us sharpen mostly midrange knives.I had the good fortune to watch Tormek expert, Stig Reitan, for a couple days. Stig has sharpened countless medium grade knives when demonstrating for Tormek using a T8 with an SG-250 and a leather honing wheel with Tormek PA-70. At home, he keeps his wife's Japanese knives sharp and well honed with a T-4, SG-200, and leather honing wheel with PA-70.

Stig is the master of pressure control, from heavy pressure for heavier grinding to finishing with very light strokes. He uses the stone grader more often and more skillfully than anyone I have met.

Ken

[tgbto]

Stig is the master of pressure control, from heavy pressure for heavier grinding to finishing with very light strokes.

I thought I remembered an advanced sharpening video where Wolfgang explains that heavy pressure does not lead to faster grinding because it kinds of glazes the SG. Or am I mistaken ?

[WimSpi]

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to look for some videos.  Personally, I think pressure does make a difference. But you have to be careful not to apply too much pressure when placing the knife on the stone, especially when using a coarse diamond stone. If you press too hard, you can easily cause deep damage to the cutting edge. I usually place several fingers across the entire width of the knife. Actually, you should only use one finger when placing the knife and only press the knife onto the wheel in the middle of the stone. Then you can add the other fingers.

[BPalv]

Wim,
1) I sharpen the cheap stuff at 20 degrees.  I sharpened a cheap knife at 15 degrees and could see the apex flexing as I ran a fingernail along it.  Another cheapie dented when I tested it with a BESS tester at 15 degrees.  My thought process is quality knives can withstand a 15 or even a 12 degree angle in the kitchen due to hardness and the physical makeup of the steel, but cheap steel is more apt to crush or deform at 15 degrees.
I grind Quality kitchen knives to 15 degrees or whatever the manufacturer recommends. (Shun 16 degrees). I never change profiles without discussing it with the customer first.
2) Workflow.  If I have a batch I'm working on the first thing I do is repair any shape issues.  Bellies, broken tips, bolsters etc.  I usually work from the smallest/cheapest to the longest high quality.  I put as many knives in jigs as I have.  As I approach each knife I determine the grit or types of stones and grind different stones in batches. I use an 80, 400 and 1000 diamond plates to change the grit on the stone as needed but try to leave it in some mid-range grit.
Use a light touch alternating sides keeping the knife moving slowly.
After I'm 100% positive I've raised a burr I move on to Honing.  I make as few passes on the honing wheel as possible at a slightly higher angle than you ground. (different steels behave differently). You can stop honing as soon as the burr is gone the entire length. (I check by shining a BRIGHT flashlight from the back of the blade and feel) You can hone more to increase sharpness with a very light touch but the more you hone, the more you smooth out the teeth.  On high quality kitchen knives I follow the Tormek honing wheel with a 1 mu TDT diamond coated honing wheel at the exact angle.  Finally, on most knives I make one pass on a 1x30 leather belt with no compound for the final cleanup.(a hanging strop works well but takes practice).  With any luck your blade will be under 200 BESS.  If you've done everything perfectly, under 100 BESS.  If not under 170 or so double check for a burr.

Other tips: take notes of everything, light pressure, practice, read, watch videos, practice, light pressure, practice, read, light pressure, practice...

You can create crazy sharp apexes with very little extra equipment. It's all about having a good knowledge base and practice.  The single piece of equipment I purchased ( other than the T8) that shortened my journey was a BESS sharpness tester.  I can quantify my results.  No more guessing if it's razor sharp or not.  Does 5, 10 or 20 passes on a strop improve sharpness?, what emulsion performs the way you want?  Without something to quantify your results you'll be shaving your arm and cutting paper to guess how sharp it is.  Depends on what you want to focus on.
You'll want something to see the apex, a loupe, magnifying glass and or a microscope.  If you are going to be setting any angles to a specific angle you'll need either the KS-123 or a quality set of long calipers or both.  The KS-123 does work.  I get about a one degree variance using the KS-123.  For everyday knives it works fine and easily produces edges under 200.  For high end knives I still measure.

Read "Knife Deburring".

I run a very small business and spend a lot of time on the knives I sharpen.  I do not do "volume" sharpening. Depending on what your plans are, maybe a volume sharpener or farmer's market sharpener would share their workflow.

Have fun on your journey.

[Sir Amwell]

Hi Wimpsi.
You are indeed on a journey.
There's no real quick fix and practice will be your friend.
Your work flow questions will be answered by focusing on practice and consistent repeatability for 'mainstream knives' protocols that you develop.
I have found that once you get accustomed to the above you will find a way to efficiently be able to batch your incoming knives and be able to quickly assess which knives need what treatment and then streamline your process to make the most of your precious time to achieve your desired results. At this point it is all about thinking ahead and planning rather than charging in and trying to rush things.
You will get there, be assured.
PM me if you want details of how I do my workflow.
One thing though from previous comments, what do you want to achieve?
If sub 200 Bess is your goal then sell out and do all your sharpening on belt grinders and go for volume rather than quality.
If sub 120 Bess is your goal, indicating complete burr removal (quality) then stick with Tormek. It is easily achievable and a quality of results that will be really appreciated by your customers, if they are worthwhile customers.
Once you get a set of protocols to meet under 120 Bess the testing becomes irrelevant on the Bess tester and a green rizla paper will be the only test you need.
Keep going!

[WimSpi]

Thanks for this additional information. It gives me a better picture. My goal is to stay below 200 BESS, even if the quality is mediocre. The path you take starts with a good analysis of the knife. I think 20 degrees is fine for a cheaper knife. For the better knives, the grinding angles are well known.
I often start with one or a few passes with the coarse diamond wheel. In my experience, if I don't do that, I end up doing a relatively large number of passes with the medium diamond wheel, which takes too long.

[WimSpi]

PM me if you want details of how I do my workflow.

How can I post a PM?

Wim

[Sir Amwell]

Click on my name and select ' send PM '