revisiting a firestorm

[Ken S]

I inadvertantly caused a firestorm when I posted my idea that I thought a knife only side job sharpener might be better served with a T2 instead of a T4 or T8 as his main machine. Without any evil intentions, I apparently dishonored a sacred cow.

I respect the critical replies. They are based on good, solid Tormek experience. However; I don't always agree with them. A primary criticism was that the T2 can only sharpen kitchen knives. (To be fair, as a specialty machine, it is specifically designed for chefs to maintain their knives.) As an old hand with sharpening chisels and plane irons going back to oilstones, fine tooth mill files, and sandpaper on glass, I am quite sure I could sharpen chisels and plane irons with my T2. I freely admit that the T2 is no match for a T4 or T8 with these tools. How often do chefs sharpen woodworking tools?

Most youtube videos show a knife being thoroughly abused before being sharpened. Although the T2 survives this cruel and unusual punishment, how often do we see a good chef actually abuse his knives, the tools of his trade, like this? Yes, the T2 is really designed for knives to be regularly maintained. Why would a top professional want it otherwise?

"Only knives"? Not so. The two Tormek videos demonstrate sharpening other tools which are part of every kitchen such as food processor blades and rotary blades. Especially with food processor blades, I don't know of any other jig controlled method of sharpening these.

The more recent video (Johan and Hugo) includes some things not in the first video. The wheels used originally used were DWF, as opposed to the more recent DF with side diamonds. I reduced a bolster with my DWF, although the newer DF does this more conveniently using the side of the wheel. The newer video also shows some user modifications to expand the range of the jig.

I believe through field use the T2 is evolving into an even more useful machine. I leave it to the reader to decide if he wants to include it in his sharpening kit.

Ken

[tgbto]

I couldn't resist playing along so...

First of all I'm glad you downsized the original "knife sharpening business" to a "knife only side job sharpener".

However the T2 is still the same size and price as in the original post, with the same limitations (constant angle only/pivoting only). So as mentioned in the firestorm (apparently) post, you might want to restrict it further to a "knife only side job sharpener whose customers don't care about bevel looks". I don't think you dishonored a sacred cow : if anything you worshipped - maybe a tad too enthusiastically - an otherwise perfectly fine goat.

As for food processor blades me says if you can hone them freehand on a T2, you can sharpen them freehand on a T-8. Food processor blades don't need sub-100 BESS sharpness anyway given their intended use, so... As for rotary blades I believe the 80-140 mm diameter range offered is quite restricted (my ham slicers are 200 and 250 mm, and they're on the small side of slicers... most slicers I know of have built-in sharpeners anyway).

If I were to become a "knife only side job sharpener", I'd rather go with a variable-speed belt sander, a coarse-to-ultrafine-grit set of belts and a leather belt, a BGM 100, USB-430 and a knife jig. Less expensive than a T2, much faster, much more versatile.

[Ken S]

TGB,

I don't have an issue with much of your reply. As I have never personally sharpened food processor or round blades, I have no direct experience. While I was visiting Tormek, I met and talked with Johan, the T2 Manager. He struck me as both knowledgeable and a straight shooter.

I do take issue with your comment about the T2 being for customers who "don't care about bevel looks". Before composing this, I sharpened several kitchen knives with my T2. The bevels looked fine to me.

I understand why you may feel the way you do. The technique for the T2 differs significantly from our old standby technique for the T8s, etc. We were all taught to lift the knife rather than pivot. That works fine with a T8, but not with the T2. Different does not necessarily mean better or worse.

The T2 and T1 are targeted for niche markets. Neither is a general purpose machine. In my humble opinion, each of them suits their targeted niches very well.

Ken

[tcsharpen]

If I were to become a "knife only side job sharpener", I'd rather go with a variable-speed belt sander, a coarse-to-ultrafine-grit set of belts and a leather belt, a BGM 100, USB-430 and a knife jig.

Using this setup, curious how would you set up and ensure repeatable 15 dps (or 12, or 17)?

[tgbto]

I do take issue with your comment about the T2 being for customers who "don't care about bevel looks". Before composing this, I sharpened several kitchen knives with my T2. The bevels looked fine to me.

I understand why you may feel the way you do. The technique for the T2 differs significantly from our old standby technique for the T8s, etc. We were all taught to lift the knife rather than pivot. That works fine with a T8, but not with the T2. Different does not necessarily mean better or worse.

Ken, this is not a question of how I feel or how the edge of a particular knife looks. This is a question of geometry : the T2 is a constant angle sharpener, so if the thickness at the tip of the knife differs from what it is along the flat or belly of the knife, then the bevel width *will* vary. In this respect, the T2 will have the same problems encountered by those who who use a Trizor XV, or who pivot without lifting on a Tormek using the laser line: some (many) bevels will get wider, some (a few) will get narrower. And of course some (in between) won't vary. However the sharpener has no control over this.
And I didn't say this was necessarily worse : some will prefer to maintain a constant angle at the expense of looks because the blade cuts consistently from tip to heel. For knives that get thicker though, it will require accepting the difference in looks *and* heavy grinding the first time to reshape the tip. Again, no choice.

I sharpen knives as a hobby but I sharpen those of a professional, high-end chef, who happens to be a friend. He wouldn't care if most of his knives were altered in the tip area. But along with a couple of his chefs, he owns a few knives that he cherishes, and whoever touches them had better make sure they look the same after sharpening. The same is true for many knife enthusiasts.

I'm sure the shot angles in the T2 (101 or 202) videos are carefully chosen, as well as the knife for the demo. I'll gladly send Tormek the reference for a knife and wager a T8 that, when sharpened with a T2 for the first time, will be "sharpie trick compliant" for 80 to 90% of the blade and then completely off at the tip.

The T2 and T1 are targeted for niche markets. Neither is a general purpose machine. In my humble opinion, each of them suits their targeted niches very well.

Agreed, yet again for T2 the target seems to be (I quote Tormek) a "professional kitchen". Which you might agree is quite different from a "knife only sharpening business".
I don't take time to reply to each post where you make the case for the T2 for a professional sharpener just for fun. I genuinely think that not being extremely clear about the consequences of constant-angle sharpening in that use case is paving the way for disappointment and waste of time/money.

If I were to become a "knife only side job sharpener", I'd rather go with a variable-speed belt sander, a coarse-to-ultrafine-grit set of belts and a leather belt, a BGM 100, USB-430 and a knife jig.

Using this setup, curious how would you set up and ensure repeatable 15 dps (or 12, or 17)?

An example can be found in this post. It can be replicated on most backstands, sometimes even without the need for the BGM+USB. An angle cube plus the constant projection method allow for serial sharpening.

[Ken S]

TGB,

I respect the case you have presented. At this point, I would like to suspend this conversation, leaving you with the last word. I want to do careful testing with my T2 and photograph the bevels. (With my family obligations this may not be speedy.) When I complete this testing, I will post the photos, regardless of which position they support. Is that agreeable with you?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any hands on experience with the T2?

Ken

[tgbto]

At this point, I would like to suspend this conversation, leaving you with the last word. I want to do careful testing with my T2 and photograph the bevels. (With my family obligations this may not be speedy.) When I complete this testing, I will post the photos, regardless of which position they support. Is that agreeable with you?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any hands on experience with the T2?

Ken

Ken, this is fine. This reminds me of a line I read on another post :

i believe we have squeezed as much useful juice as this issue has to offer. Let's move on.

But it seems the OP in this more recent post has a different opinion and thinks it is important to revisit the firestorm. So revisit we do...

I have no hands on experience with the T2. However I have experience with a Trizor XV which works exactly the way the T2 works, or with the Ken Onion Sharpener in its original edition, along with enough math background to trust the fact that under reasonably applicable hypotheses to our knife sharpening situation :

sin a = ht / bl where a is the edgle angle (measured @ 90° from the edge) in dps, ht is half the thickness of the blade at the top of the edge and bl the bevel length.

So with an angle guide, a and sin a remain constant, so bl increases with ht. Or if ht increases and you want bl to remain constant, you have to increase sin a and therefore increase a.

Or as this non-Tormek related site puts it :

On knives where the tip is inline with the spine and where there is not a distal taper, the effect is more pronounced. A wider bevel in this circumstance is a purely cosmetic concern since the angle is constant.

Which I think is about the same thing I said, english mistakes aside.

There is also this site and many others.

As you said it too, the T2 is pivot only. The same causes will have the same effects, so you will get the same result as on the T8 if you pivot along the laser line instead of lifting. When you lift, you increase the edge angle and comparatively reduce the bevel height. But maybe I missed a key point...

[cbwx34]

I inadvertantly caused a firestorm when I posted my idea that I thought a knife only side job sharpener might be better served with a T2 instead of a T4 or T8 as his main machine. Without any evil intentions, I apparently dishonored a sacred cow.

I respect the critical replies. They are based on good, solid Tormek experience. However; I don't always agree with them. A primary criticism was that the T2 can only sharpen kitchen knives. (To be fair, as a specialty machine, it is specifically designed for chefs to maintain their knives.) As an old hand with sharpening chisels and plane irons going back to oilstones, fine tooth mill files, and sandpaper on glass, I am quite sure I could sharpen chisels and plane irons with my T2. I freely admit that the T2 is no match for a T4 or T8 with these tools. How often do chefs sharpen woodworking tools?

Most youtube videos show a knife being thoroughly abused before being sharpened. Although the T2 survives this cruel and unusual punishment, how often do we see a good chef actually abuse his knives, the tools of his trade, like this? Yes, the T2 is really designed for knives to be regularly maintained. Why would a top professional want it otherwise?

"Only knives"? Not so. The two Tormek videos demonstrate sharpening other tools which are part of every kitchen such as food processor blades and rotary blades. Especially with food processor blades, I don't know of any other jig controlled method of sharpening these.

The more recent video (Johan and Hugo) includes some things not in the first video. The wheels used originally used were DWF, as opposed to the more recent DF with side diamonds. I reduced a bolster with my DWF, although the newer DF does this more conveniently using the side of the wheel. The newer video also shows some user modifications to expand the range of the jig.

I believe through field use the T2 is evolving into an even more useful machine. I leave it to the reader to decide if he wants to include it in his sharpening kit.

Ken

When I read this post, I'm left with the impression that all you would sharpen is kitchen knives and tools.  You could probably be successful in this limited field as a "side job sharpener".  But if you expand the field to say, sharpening at at a farmer's market, or running a full knife sharpening service, you'd be hard pressed, to run even a part time business with a T-2.  So maybe a better definition is in order.  I'll repeat the same quote I made last time...

...
For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.

This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.
...

The T-2 is designed for a specific set of knives... those found in the kitchen.  Even in this group, it struggled with some designs, as I detailed in this thread:  T2 Initial Review, although I'm aware that the guide has been updated since I made that post, so it may be more accommodating.

tgbto is correct that bevel thickness is influenced by blade thickness, taper, etc.  But again on kitchen knives, as I brought up in this thread:  Evenness of bevel width with T1/T2 the result will be negligible on most kitchen knives, since they're thinner, have taper from heel to tip, etc. that offset this.  Again, the field is kitchen knives.

Also keep in mind that the the T-2 doesn't handle blade taper from spine to edge well (just like the AngleMaster), and doesn't handle "odd" shaped knives where, for example the handle or bolster gets in the way... something I can easily adjust to on a T-4 or T-8, so again we're back to a limited number of knives.

So, my .02 the T-2 could be a "main machine" if the sharpening was mainly limited to light duty of primarily kitchen style knives, and a few associated tools that were shown in the recent T2 "202" video, (and also the Round Blade attachment).  Or very light duty where you might get a variety of knives, but have the time to individually address the issues that each knife presents.  (And you'd probably need to develop the skill to freehand sharpen certain knives.)

But I believe that if a person is looking for their first machine to sharpen knives, and/or other items, unless their need/desire meets this pretty limited criteria, they'd be better served investing in the more versatile models.

[tgbto]

But again on kitchen knives, as I brought up in this thread:  Evenness of bevel width with T1/T2 the result will be negligible on most kitchen knives, since they're thinner, have taper from heel to tip, etc. that offset this.  Again, the field is kitchen knives.

I completely agree with you. But for someone who would want to make it a business, "most" kitchen knives may be limiting still. I know of a Santoku (quite common in kitchen these days) that does not look good at a constant angle. The same for a Global forged chef knife (G6, I think). I also own a Honesuki (granted, less common, but hey...) that remains pretty thick at the tip as it needs to handle poultry bones.